Supercap DR or 250DR upgrade on 282 to improve bass weight and soundstage?

First of all, thank you very much to everyone for contributing and sharing experiences. This is far beyond my expectation and I highly appreciate your responses!

[@mention:49436537387864621] - I'd be more than happy if the addition of a XPS to the NDX will make my fact.8 starting to sing if I stay with my 200 for now? Or did you refer to already owning a 250 and then add a XPS?

[@mention:13111295364991225] - i could go 5 full width boxes if I ditch my t+a cdp which I hardly use anyway, so that loss would be rather small. Looks like I will need to think about this seriously some time...

From the various great comments I read/feel that the amp is the bottleneck which I need to sort out first and already regret not having auditioned the fact.8 with Naim electronics in the first place but that would have been another huge challenge to arrange back then...

It also looks like as if the 282/HCDR is "sufficient" for now even if going for a 300 and eventually add a XPS later?

Mayor West posted:

If box count is an issue you could always chuck a Hugo on the NDX ��

Read a lot about NDX/Hugo and many experienced forum members see this combo highly rated. I have not made any attempts to audition this combo as I thought until now that the NDX holds onto its own very well. However I just don't know at which level the NDX will start to become the weak link. For me another big project to find that out.

I was using the 250dr before the XPS was added to the NDX.

I would probably think in the context of your system if you change to the 250dr first then see which out of the Supercap dr or adding a XPS dr to the NDX gives the best uplift.

All I can say is that the NDX is in a different league with addition of the power supply.

Source first - add an XPSDR or a pre-loved 555PS non-DR to your NDX.

Adam, that's the theory, but those Fact 8s are vastly underdriven with a 200. The root of the problem is being overspeakered of course. 

Of course - missed the NAP 200 (reading on an iPhone before).

Need NAP 250 as well. That will add some bass to the equation.

Have to disagree with the claim that Fact 8s  is under driven by the 200.  Many demos have shown otherwise to me.  Easy load, very efficient, and small driveers.  However, they don't do particularly high volumes.

 Sure, they may sound better with a 250 or 300, depending on room size/interaction and taste in presentation.

The great thing about the Fact range is their tone controls, which could help in getting things optimised to taste, room, and stuff up stream.

The sure footed way is to listen again at home and expri met with the tone controls and/or positioning of the speakers 

Jude

Adam Zielinski posted:

Source first - add an XPSDR or a pre-loved 555PS non-DR to your NDX.

 

aww a 555PS on an NDX..  I don't think so, not for my ears anyway... certainly brought out the not so niceties in the NDX... yes if they are using the NDX inbuilt DAC then an XPS did help... but alas in my most humblest of opinions, the NDX's inbuilt DAC is not its strongest point... but as a transport.. exceptional with latest firmwares.

Simon

Jude2012 posted:

Have to disagree with the claim that Fact 8s  is under driven by the 200.  Many demos have shown otherwise to me.  Easy load, very efficient, and small driveers.  However, they don't do particularly high volumes.

 Sure, they may sound better with a 250 or 300, depending on room size/interaction and taste in presentation.

The great thing about the Fact range is their tone controls, which could help in getting things optimised to taste, room, and stuff up stream.

The sure footed way is to listen again at home and expri met with the tone controls and/or positioning of the speakers 

Jude

I have checked the specification of the PMC Fact 8s and they appear to be an easy load with their 8 ohm impedance and 89dB sensitivity. Looks like PMC have tuned their speakers throughout the years as the older PMC models are mostly in 4 ohm impedance with lower sensitivity figures.

Having said that, I guess you may have hit the nail on the head there on room size and taste. I also own some speakers which are an easy load (Harbeth) and they do sound rather different when driven by the NAP 200 and NAP 250 DR. From my experience, it's not all about power as the sound signature of the NAP 200 is different from the NAP 250 DR. Much have been covered on this topic before so I will not elaborate on the differences here.

Personally I think the main highlight between the NAP 200 and NAP 250 DR is the difference in their sound presentation, not so much on the size of the room or the load of the speakers. The NAP 200 drives my speakers to high levels (in a very large living room) too, and the sound is clean and does not break up or show distortion.

I think the Fact8 absolutely can benefit from the 250DR more than the SCDR in this case. I have added a SCDR to a 282 up from a HCDR and I would describe the change as much greater clarity and definition at the bottom half of the spectrum with bass notes taking on a new life and joining the 3d soundstage as opposed to being largely omnidirectional. But to be clear, I don't think this granted any more weight or punch. You need a more gutsy power amp to deliver that.

Considering I user a 250DR with much more lowly PMCs (I aspired to the Fact range but never made it), I can only imagine that the Fact8 would wake up in ways you can only imagine on the end of a 250DR.

As for the NDX, well an XPS makes it take on a whole new quality that is more akin to an analogue source. It is quite beguiling and I think is a must if you plan on a 252 in the future. However, the bare NDX on a 282 is also very nice. What the NDX lacks in raw hi-end detail it makes up for by having all the parts work so well together. It would not have survived as long as it has at the price it has if it didn't have some magic. It is a supremely well balanced source. While I think the XPS on it sounds so musical, again it won't add more bass weight.

While I have never experienced a SCDR on my 282, my general thoughts & what the 250DR did for me, sounds like it should be your next upgrade.  I was using a 202/200 setup, then picked up a 282 & HiCAPDR.  Installed & listened to the bare 282 for a week or so then added the HiCAPDR to see what exactly it brought to the party.  A few months later I swapped the 200 for the 250DR & I would imagine it will do exactly what your looking for.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Adam Zielinski posted:

Source first - add an XPSDR or a pre-loved 555PS non-DR to your NDX.

 

aww a 555PS on an NDX..  I don't think so, not for my ears anyway... certainly brought out the not so niceties in the NDX... yes if they are using the NDX inbuilt DAC then an XPS did help... but alas in my most humblest of opinions, the NDX's inbuilt DAC is not its strongest point... but as a transport.. exceptional with latest firmwares.

Simon

In preparatuon for the nDAC

555 on an NDX is 'too strong' - I agree. 

The best combo (sound wise) is NDX + nDAC + 555PS (non-DR). 

ryder. posted:

Jude2012 posted:

Have to disagree with the claim that Fact 8s  is under driven by the 200.  Many demos have shown otherwise to me.  Easy load, very efficient, and small driveers.  However, they don't do particularly high volumes.

 Sure, they may sound better with a 250 or 300, depending on room size/interaction and taste in presentation.

The great thing about the Fact range is their tone controls, which could help in getting things optimised to taste, room, and stuff up stream.

The sure footed way is to listen again at home and expri met with the tone controls and/or positioning of the speakers 

Jude

Personally I think the main highlight between the NAP 200 and NAP 250 DR is the difference in their sound presentation, not so much on the size of the room or the load of the speakers. The NAP 200 drives my speakers to high levels (in a very large living room) too, and the sound is clean and does not break up or show distortion.

I usually listen to moderate sound levels only and so far I have never heard any distortion.  As already mentioned the audition between 200DR and 250DR in my dealer's setup were for my ears a night and day experience and because of this I am very eager to hear this in my room with my speakers.

feeling_zen posted:

Considering I user a 250DR with much more lowly PMCs (I aspired to the Fact range but never made it), I can only imagine that the Fact8 would wake up in ways you can only imagine on the end of a 250DR.

Are you saying that the fact.8 from your point of view would only scratch the surface of its full potential with a 250DR and that any other 300 would be more advisable?

 

feeling_zen posted:

Considering I user a 250DR with much more lowly PMCs (I aspired to the Fact range but never made it), I can only imagine that the Fact8 would wake up in ways you can only imagine on the end of a 250DR.

Are you saying that the fact.8 from your point of view would only scratch the surface of its full potential with a 250DR and that any other 300 would be more advisable?

Err no. I mean that the 250DR makes a giant difference on the more lowly Twenty.23 and that the Fact8 should be even more capable of revealing the benefit from this amp and vice versa.

If you have the money for a 300 then sure, go for it, but I was pointing out that the Fact8 could show a better improvement from moving from a 200 to a 250 than my speakers did and that even with mine the benefit is fairly large.

I'd agree there. A 250 makes a world of difference to the 20.23s. There is getting sound out of speakers, and there is fully controlling them, and just because they are a relatively benign load does not mean that they will benefit hugely from a bigger amplifier. The 23s sound quite weedy with a 200, and the Fact 8s are a much bigger and more demanding speaker. I'd expect the 250 to be the realistic minimum, though I've not heard the Facts, so may be talking rubbish. 

feeling_zen posted:

 

feeling_zen posted:

Considering I user a 250DR with much more lowly PMCs (I aspired to the Fact range but never made it), I can only imagine that the Fact8 would wake up in ways you can only imagine on the end of a 250DR.

Are you saying that the fact.8 from your point of view would only scratch the surface of its full potential with a 250DR and that any other 300 would be more advisable?

Err no. I mean that the 250DR makes a giant difference on the more lowly Twenty.23 and that the Fact8 should be even more capable of revealing the benefit from this amp and vice versa.

thank you, this makes perfectly sense and apologies for not getting your comment right in the first place.

Just slightly off topic but does anybody know how to request service and/or DR upgrades for s/h units which were already pre-owned? Who would I naturally get in direct contact with? Could I just approach any Naim dealer, would I contact a region's distributor or contact Naim customer service directly?

Thanks!

Megge posted:

Just slightly off topic but does anybody know how to request service and/or DR upgrades for s/h units which were already pre-owned? Who would I naturally get in direct contact with? Could I just approach any Naim dealer, would I contact a region's distributor or contact Naim customer service directly?

You should be able to do this via a Naim dealer. Alternatively, if you are in the UK or EU you can use Class A in Sheffield, who are a Naim authorised service agent, for servicing, although I think they might not do DR upgrades.

ChrisSU posted:

Megge posted:

Just slightly off topic but does anybody know how to request service and/or DR upgrades for s/h units which were already pre-owned? Who would I naturally get in direct contact with? Could I just approach any Naim dealer, would I contact a region's distributor or contact Naim customer service directly?

You should be able to do this via a Naim dealer. Alternatively, if you are in the UK or EU you can use Class A in Sheffield, who are a Naim authorised service agent, for servicing, although I think they might not do DR upgrades.

They do not carry out DR upgrades yet but can facilitate the process by being a link between the customer and Naim as far as I know. I'm sure Darran can arrange that. 

Alright, my dealer has been at my place yesterday and I asked him to bring along the agreed 250DR and SupercapDR but also asked him to bring another HicapDR in order to take a stepped approach starting with 250DR all the way up to SCDR.

So first we hooked up the 250DR on my NDX/282/HCDR which initially didn’t convince me at the dealer’s place. It was bloated and too much for that room with those Neat XLS speakers at that time. So I was bit nervous what was going to happen here. Now once hooked up it was a complete revelation for my ears. The soundstage expanded greatly when listening to the Dark Knight and Pirates of the Caribbean soundtracks. I heard plenty of that bass reminding me of my PSBs but its control and detail was exceptional. No sign of muddiness or bloated soundstage. Also the “thinness” I was initially complaining about was gone. Everything sat right in its place and put a big smile on my face. The only thing that I noticed was that instruments (listened to “Concerning Hobbits”) still had some thinness like missing some body around to sound more present in the whole context of the song. Highs were also a bit on the bright side, but nothing tragic at all I’d say.

So next was the Hicap DR in line to get connected in addition to my already existing one. Also the 250DR was still connected in order to listen to the upgrade progression while building the systems. My dealer said he has like 5 out 10 customers where there is no improvement with 2 HCDRs at all whereas with some others they do hear some step-up in their room/speaker/system context. So what did the second HCDR do? It actually did some great step-up in my place. These highs which were a bit on the bright side and the thinness of instruments were gone. Things now placed themselves seamless into the musical overall picture of the tracks I heard and did not fall short of presence anymore. Also the soundstage became deeper by a small margin and low frequencies had better definition/contour. So it seems that the separation of power to the individual channels of the 282 did do some magic and I was actually very glad to hear this and glad that I asked my dealer short-term to bring a second HCDR along.

Now at last there was the SupercapDR. In exchange of the two HCDRs the improvement was immediate. Soundstage widened by a big margin into all directions. Low frequency control as well as its details got pronounced better and more solid. Instruments have been pulled wider (width and depth) apart in space if I may say so which made locating them on stage easier. An even bigger step forward were mids’ and highs’ details and transparency as well as timing. Especially the timing was second to none compared to the setup with both HCDRs. Now while listening to the SCDR in my system I felt that even though everything was a big leap forward the musical enjoyment and overall musical picture that draws me in did lack a bit to my ears due to (probably) the greater transparency and details the SCDR offered. So I had the fear that longer listening sessions would get my ears tired but that’s only an assumption I could make at that time. In terms of additional financial layout for the SCDR I also thought that it was not worth it for now unless I’d go up the ladder later, and this is not in near sight atm.

So in the end I of course opted for the most obvious and took the 250DR which REALLY, REALLY made my speakers sing. It was the best and most significant upgrade from all combinations mentioned before. However and this was the least expected from my side I also bought the second HicapDR because it placed the music to another level for me in the whole context of my room/speakers/system. My dealer made me an overall offer which I could not resist (including the return of my 202/200) which would have never been possible if I’d have bought the amp and PS separately.

By all means the SCDR is an amazing performer and shows what the 282 may be capable of. However, and this is to my ears only and mentioned this a couple of posts before, a 282/SCDR would need a better source (at least NDX+XPSDR) and a 300DR to bring back that musical enjoyment for me which I shortly heard in my dealer’s demo some time ago. But that would be 6 full width boxes vs my 3 and 2 HCDRs (which comfortably reside on top of each other on another small shelf), and not to speak of the additional financial stretch. Also the temptation to go for a 252 when a SCDR is already at home would at least for me be hard to resist at some point of time. In any case right now I have that very good feeling that this system/speaker combo (NDX/282/HCDR x2/250DR/PMC fact.8) may be all I want for a very long time J

So many thanks to you all for your helpful comments and advices. This is highly appreciated! It helped me a great deal to lead me into the right upgrade direction and more than strengthens the common statement that a home demo is a must within your own walls, your speakers and system. Happy listening J

Regards M

Sounds like you have a superb dealer there.

I envy you in hearing what a 250DR can do to a pair of Fact8s. Our systems are different but seem like cousins, both starting with and NDX and ending in PMCs. I did indeed have a XPS.DR on the NDS before adding the SCDR to the 282 but found much of the same results you described above.

Your next job is stop thinking of hifi for a while and focus on feeding as much music to that lovely system as possible.

I was actually lucky with my fact.8s since I grabbed a demo pair from a dealer. Before taking the shot on them I auditioned them along with twenty5.23 and twenty5.24 and these are both nothing short of amazing as well. So if I wouldn't have found that great fact.8 deal I would have most likely gone with either of the two twenty5s. So fwiw I don't think you will be missing out on much with your 23s if anything cuz the leap over the old twenty series is a big one and the gap to the fact.8s to my ears got already much smaller with these two models (not heard the twenty5.26 yet).