Dear Naim...

David Hendon posted:

Adam Zielinski posted:

You are describing an app problem, not a streaming problem. Get a decent phone / tablet (iOS) with a normal operating system andeverything works well.

I thinkk you should be complaining to Google for developing Android and to whoever set your network up.

Only just seen this. But Adam I don't think you are right because the OP describes how his 272 can't find the network when prompted to do so by the Naim remote. That's nothing to do with the app.

I think this will turn out to be a router issue. I know it works fine for other devices the OP has, but nevertheless if it were me, I would be buying a new router. But I would try a cable between router and 272 first, as I said in my earlier post.

best

David

I think it's a network related issue.

Hi Dr Mark,

To answer a few of the points

1 & 2, it will be possible to separate the ADSL (Or cable) terminal adapter  part of your router's functionality from the Wireless Access Point sode of the functionality and use a different Wireless Access Point.  Apple Airport Express or Airport Extreme are often being used for this.

6  This shouldn't be a problem.

No it shouldn't be a problem as Naim are sticking to the correct protocols and standards, unfortunately quite a few manufacturers of home networking products are failing to test compliance with those standards, instead just relying on testing only the normal computer to device and computer to internet protocols.  Some other audio manufactures seem to be either rolling their own protocols using generic messaging (e.g. Sonos), or bypassing just some parts of the standards (e.g. Logitech); unfortunately this reduces pressure on the manufacturers of home networking products to get their house in order.

Hi, Dr Mark.

Very sorry about your bad experience.  It does not sound like the norm on the Forum, to me.  I have had an HDX, NDX, NDX-FM, and UQ2 -- all are rock-solid all the time, with Apple iOS devices.  Never tried Android.

Early on, I did find setting static IP addresses for the Naim pieces and NAS helped reliability, just before the router died.  Kept that arrangement with the new router, for luck.

If you are confident your network is configured right, with static IP addresses in a designated range to prevent conflicting assignments, it is time to consider there is a problem with your 272.  

My experience suggests Naim can resolve this for you.  Sometimes a NIC goes bad on any piece of gear.  Could be your problem.

Whatever your issue, you are right to expect better.  The fact that you have issues when using the remote that came with the 272 suggests to me the problem lies with your network config, or the 272 itself, not the Android etc.  I would ask AT&T for a replacement router, if not already tried.  When mine died, it was unreliable for a couple of weeks, first.

Good luck.  I hope you will let us know what the problem was.

A toxic Yoga once took down one of our branch offices -- networking can be tricky.

Nick

Huge posted:

Hi David,  yes, -ish.

Even when using the remote, if an instance of the Naim App is connected to the streamer it will repeatedly send commands to the streamer requesting status updates to keep it's UI in sync with the streamer.  If it finds a discrepancy it can then send stop and restart commands to the streamer, causing all sorts of mayhem if the network isn't working properly.

That's a fair point, but the OP can easily isolate that, for example by turning the wifi off on his Android phone, so the app no longer exists so far as the 272 is concerned.

best

David

Easier than that:  Go to the view of the running apps on the Android device and swipe it off the screen; that suspends the app and then although it's still in memory it simply never gets on the scheduled queue for any processor time.

Dear Dr Mark -

Ages ago I had similar frustrations with a v1 Qute, including the steady disintegration of connectivity from network (wireless or wired, no matter) then IR remote also non-functional. In the end, re-flashing the latest firmware and doing a factory reset proved helpful. In my case, steady firmware updates led to improved reliability. To this day, I believe it entered a non-escapeable error condition that the re-flash / reset corrected. 

Advice about your network may or may not be helpful...but loss of IR remote and normal operation is not the fault of even the worst of the ISP routers. 

Best wishes with this. Others have felt your pain, even if most users never land in this particular circle of hell. 

Regards, (Dr) alan

alan33 posted:

Dear Dr Mark -

Advice about your network may or may not be helpful...but loss of IR remote and normal operation is not the fault of even the worst of the ISP routers. 

The OP hasn't said anything about losing IR remote operation has he? Obviously if the network isn't working properly telling the 272 to connect to it isn't going to work properly either, but that isn't an IR thing.

So another suggestion for DrMark, you could temporarily move the 272 to be next to the router and connect it with a LAN cable. You don't need to connect a power amp and loudspeakers, but if you want to hear what's going on, plug in some cheap headphones.  Play around with it and see if it connects promptly when you tell it to with the remote.  Leave it overnight and have another go in the morning.  Leave it and try again when you get back from work etc etc.  If it is working ok, then try using the Android app and repeat the test.  This might take a day or two without music but you will learn a lot about where the problem is located.

Personally I would resist playing with fixed IP addresses. Unless you really know what you are doing, you just introduce another layer of uncertainty when something goes wrong.  If your router is working properly DHCP is the way to do it. Of course if your router is about to fail, then as Nick found, fixing the IP addresses does help because that relieves the router of that job.

best

David

I don't know if there is any similarity to the cause, as so e of your symptoms are different, but maybe this is worth mentioning as something fairly easily tried: When I had an ND5XS I would quite often get a message either that it can't find streamer, or the streamer couldn't find any "rooms", and sometimes the system stopped responding completely  (though not as quick as 20 sec), and the only way back was rebooting the ND5 then restarting the app. I couldn't work out if it was the app or the player that was the problem, though sounded more like the player. However it turned out to be the UPnP server on my NAS that was the problem, ceasing after I changed it.

David, 

Fair point -- fixed IPs should not be necessary, though they can help isolate issues.  Fixed IPs would not compensate at all for WiFi interference or a dodgy network cable.

Nick

Perhaps I misunderstood about the Naim remote failure - you're right David that asking it to connect to the network via the centre button and then failing to connect is not a symptom of loss of IR function if the 272 tries on IR command. Apologies for that!

I'm still a fan of the re-flash if connection loss is happening while doing a network "thing" (like playing internet radio, UPnP from local storage, or Tidal or other external service). Starting in a known good state is useful even if it isn't a complete solution.

Good diagnostic suggestions so far from many others, also. If seeking other things to try, I've also had success by simplification: if you can get access to another router, you can create a simple purely local network (intranet only, sans internet access) by putting the new router beside the 272 and wiring them together. Turn wifi on this tiny network and see if the app connects, then see if you can connect to the 272 service web page (I think it has one; the Qute and the SuperUniti do) by browsing to its IP address.  Add your NAS locally and see if you can use its UPnP server. Check stability and reliability. Then play as many other games as you like - connecting this router to the outside world via your existing AT&T modem (there are a few ways to do this depending on your situation). Success here would point to issues with your existing router and network configuration.

Your frustration that "everything other than my Naim works on my network" is normal and, from what I've read about the improvements offered by the new Uniti platform, is recognized as an area of weakness at Naim - they are touting a new and much more robust networking interface via both Ethernet and wifi (which is a gentle way of acknowledging that their other products are less robust than customers expect).

Again, best wishes as you approach a solution. 

Regards alan

Hi DrMark, I had similar issues when my internet provider upgraded the network to VDSL and supplemented me a with a new  modem- router. With the WiFi thusly "generated" I could not connect to the NDX (of could do so intermittently). As I am not an expert I could not come up with tricks like the ones Huge suggested above and quite frustrated finally got me a Airport Express and used the IP's modem exclusively as such with router duties assigned to the AP. I strongly recommend you try this if you can borrow an AE unless of course you manage with some config changes to solve your issue using the supplemented modem/ router.

I just came back from running errands, and had thought to uninstall the Naim app (just to eliminate that variable from the equation), but I will go with Huge's idea of shutting the app completely down...it does make me suspicious that while it never worked great, that it really went to hell when I applied the Nougat update.

If I take that out of the mix and the 272 runs normally from the remote (although based on things said above and my own observation that would surprise me) then it would help narrow down the issues.

I think I will also shut everything in the house down (including computers, etc) and the router, and bring the whole thing up one unit at a time, starting with the router. The router is relatively new, but I have not been impressed. (Of course, almost nothing AT&T does impresses me...the devil posing as a telecommunications company.)

I will also try calling Phil Harris on Monday, and attempt to prepare for a complete firmware update on the 272 - one must remember at the heart of all this are a couple of computers talking to each other, and computers are dodgy beasts almost always. Just sucks to be without music - the SBT & NAD notwithstanding.

Thanks again for all the ideas and suggestions - I will be going bit by bit through them and will report back...perhaps even a change in behavior will tip off some of the more network savvy folks. I will also try to post a screen shot of my router settings.

Phil is working all this weekend at a HiFi show here in the UK so maybe won't be there Monday (or maybe he will be!) , but if you email support then Naim can sort it for you from there.

best

David

Quick update as I head out the door; I force stopped the Naim app on the Android device. First cut I played seemed to run OK...I let it run for about 2 minutes. Then I got brave (or stupid) and tried the same Neil Young cut, as well as others, all this only using the Naim remote. Best I got was about 20 seconds. Sometimes it resumes where it "left off", and sometimes it fumbles around and ends up back on the song list for the album, poised to play the cut it was last playing.

David - thanks for that info about Phil.

Next step when I return will be a complete and total network shutdown, including all devices, and bring it up one piece at a time, starting with the main desktop PC, then the Vortexbox, then adding the rest one at a time. Frustration reigns supreme at the DrMark house...

Well we know it's not an Android app issue then. So it's your 272 talking to your router or maybe it's your NAS talking to your router. Next step is to exclude wifi.......

best

David

DrMark posted:

Quick update as I head out the door; I force stopped the Naim app on the Android device. First cut I played seemed to run OK...I let it run for about 2 minutes. Then I got brave (or stupid) and tried the same Neil Young cut, as well as others, all this only using the Naim remote. Best I got was about 20 seconds. Sometimes it resumes where it "left off", and sometimes it fumbles around and ends up back on the song list for the album, poised to play the cut it was last playing.

David - thanks for that info about Phil.

Next step when I return will be a complete and total network shutdown, including all devices, and bring it up one piece at a time, starting with the main desktop PC, then the Vortexbox, then adding the rest one at a time. Frustration reigns supreme at the DrMark house...

Assuming that the UPnP server that provides the data to the 272 runs on the Vortexbox, you seem to have a problem with the interaction of Vortexbox, 272 and router. This would be a bit strange given that, in your original post, you mention that the problems showed up after updating the Android app. Perhaps the new app has modified the setup of your 272 or (less likely) of your Vortexbox? You cannot easily test a new router or a new 272 at the moment but you could try to take the Vortexbox out of the equation: you have mentioned that you have a desktop PC in your LAN. You could try to switch off the Vortexbox and run a UPnP server on the PC. Alternatively, you could install BubbleUPnP on you android device and use it in place of the Naim app. I do not know whether BubbleUPnP works with Naim streamers but it certainly would see your UPnP server and it has a local renderer. Thus, you could use it to get the 272 out of the equation and test the interactions of Vortexbox (UPnP server), router and Android device (renderer). Given your original post, this is in fact the first test that I would run. BubbleUPnP is anyway a very flexible tool which is worth having on an Android device. Good luck, nbpf

DrPo posted:

Hi DrMark, I had similar issues when my internet provider upgraded the network to VDSL and supplemented me a with a new  modem- router. With the WiFi thusly "generated" I could not connect to the NDX (of could do so intermittently). As I am not an expert I could not come up with tricks like the ones Huge suggested above and quite frustrated finally got me a Airport Express and used the IP's modem exclusively as such with router duties assigned to the AP. I strongly recommend you try this if you can borrow an AE unless of course you manage with some config changes to solve your issue using the supplemented modem/ router.

This^^^

i had a UnitiQute2 that couldn't hardwire and it didn't work well via network. Got an AE to use as a bridge to hardwire and it worked great. Sucks to spend more money but at least the AE is cheap. 

David Hendon posted:

Well we know it's not an Android app issue then. ...

Sounds like a very plausible conclusion but: the original post suggests that the problems showed up after the Naim app for Android was updated (DrMark, can you confirm this?).  Is it conceivable that the new Naim app for Android has induced persistent changes in the 272's state that, in turn, have lead to the observed problems even after the app had been shut down? 

Adam Zielinski posted:

You are describing an app problem, not a streaming problem. Get a decent phone / tablet (iOS) with a normal operating system andeverything works well.

I thinkk you should be complaining to Google for developing Android and to whoever set your network up.

These pages are full of connection and app problems so there must be something wrong withe system rather than endless user error. it out me off any sort of naim streamer and the only way i'd buy one would be if a dealer came and set the whole thing up with the revise i could return it

I can confirm that prior to the update, it was certainly a PITA but I could always get it to work...just depended on how much faffing about I had to go through, but typically within 2-5 minutes. In fact, once the Naim app started to work again after they updated it, it was a fairly predictable (if not annoying) set of steps that would get things going.

NBPF - does the present of "Squeezer" on my phone (it runs the SBT) fulfill the same test as UPNP? After typing that I imagine not, because the SBT only sees LMS, whereas the 272 can see both the DLNA, LMS, and even a PC that has an empty iTunes on it.

Now that I am home for the evening (single and home on Saturday night; what a playboy), first step will be the full start up I described. Then I will get some router screen shots, and I might also try a factory reset on the 272, although I did that when I bought it (second hand) and have never modified any settings.

DrMark posted:

I just came back from running errands, and had thought to uninstall the Naim app (just to eliminate that variable from the equation), but I will go with Huge's idea of shutting the app completely down...it does make me suspicious that while it never worked great, that it really went to hell when I applied the Nougat update.

...

You could also try to uninstall the Naim app and reinstall it again. You have finally updated your Android and, even if the Naim app has been tested for the new Android, you have installed it in an old system. Good luck, nbpf

sjw posted:

Adam Zielinski posted:

You are describing an app problem, not a streaming problem. Get a decent phone / tablet (iOS) with a normal operating system andeverything works well.

I thinkk you should be complaining to Google for developing Android and to whoever set your network up.

These pages are full of connection and app problems so there must be something wrong withe system rather than endless user error. it out me off any sort of naim streamer and the only way i'd buy one would be if a dealer came and set the whole thing up with the revise i could return it

Most of the problems seem to be due to badly developed routers that haven't been properly tested with the standard streaming protocols.

Naim uses perfectly standard network protocols.

DrMark posted:

...

NBPF - does the present of "Squeezer" on my phone (it runs the SBT) fulfill the same test as UPNP?

...

I do not think so but I do not know squeezer. Install Bubble UPnP, select as source the same UPnP server that feeds the 272, put your Android device near your 272 and try to playback some files on your Android device. If this works flawlessly, you know that there is a problem with your 272. In this case, try moving the 272 near to the router (or to connect it via wire or wireless bridge) as already suggested. If this doesn now work, bring the 272 to your dealer.

As others have said, and from what you will do, it sounds like a network issue.

However, Naim have never been 100% with their firmware.

DVD5 anyone?

Fascinating thread this as I have consistently experienced the exact same problem. I have a Unitiqute2 (brought pre loved) and in 2 years of owning have never gone to the qute to play music and it found the network immediately. It always states no network! I have set a static IP address on the router and this initially made it marginally more stable. Often it just hangs for ages and then results in it displaying an Error message. The only way to resolve this is switch the qute off for a couple of minutes, then turn it back on, it then discovers the network. I am running an ASus n66 router into a VM super hub set in modem mode, I also have a Synology 212 Nas with Minimserver installed. I have often wondered if it is an issue with the qute, the network or both! Trouble is we also have Sonos equipment in a few rooms accessing the same network and this never skips a beat, so what is so different? I should also say that we are exclusively Apple users iMac, MacBook Air, iPad and iPhones so all apps running on IOS 

The OP has my sympathies., having been through the same frustrations I totally get where he is coming from. This is not cheap equipment and as such you expect things to just work. You wouldn't buy a new car and expect to have fiddle about with the engine in order to take it for a drive! It has been very tempting to cut my losses and to try another manufacturer - Auralic Aries being one possible option!