Dear Naim...

Gingerbeard posted:

Fascinating thread this as I have consistently experienced the exact same problem. I have a Unitiqute2 (brought pre loved) and in 2 years of owning have never gone to the qute to play music and it found the network immediately. It always states no network! I have set a static IP address on the router and this initially made it marginally more stable. Often it just hangs for ages and then results in it displaying an Error message. The only way to resolve this is switch the qute off for a couple of minutes, then turn it back on, it then discovers the network. I am running an ASus n66 router into a VM super hub set in modem mode, I also have a Synology 212 Nas with Minimserver installed. I have often wondered if it is an issue with the qute, the network or both! Trouble is we also have Sonos equipment in a few rooms accessing the same network and this never skips a beat, so what is so different? 

The OP has my sympathies., having been through the same frustrations I totally get where he is coming from. This is not cheap equipment and as such you expect things to just work. You wouldn't buy a new car and expect to have fiddle about with the engine in order to take it for a drive! It has been very tempting to cut my losses and to try another manufacturer - Auralic Aries being one possible option! 

UnitiQute uses standard Network (DLNA) protocols for a streaming device, Sonos rolled their own streaming protocols built using standard computer data transfer network message techniques.  Try getting a Sonos system to work with HiRes (tip, it's network protocols aren't sufficiently flexible to do this reliably, so they don't support it.)!

The problem probably lies with with the Asus router or the VM Super Hub not being set in a way that allows DLNA discovery to work reliably.  When I had exactly that same problem it was cured by turning off IGMP snooping - don't blame Naim for problems where your network mucks up the handling of perfectly standard protocols.

had to look this up - since Huge is definitely a more adept network person, I am sure I am not the only one who doesn't know what IGMP Snooping is - I will leave it to him to pass judgment on this explanation:

IGMP Snooping is a common advanced option available on most of the routers. In this Layman’s IGMP Snooping guide, we will go over what IGMP Snooping does, and when you might need to enable IGMP Snooping configuration.

What is IGMP Snooping

From the default router advanced settings tooltip on an Asus branded router:
When enabled, IGMP Snooping monitors IGMP communications among devices and optimizes wireless multicast traffic.

This definition does not really explain much. However, a simpler way to put it is that IGMP Snooping can be enabled so that your router acts as a mailman or gate for the multicast traffic.

When your network has plenty of multicast traffic, the performance for the entire network can take a hit because of excessive false flooding. IGMP Snooping optimizes that performance overhead. The Router decides which devices will receive the applicable multicast traffic to improve the overall network speed.

But if you have little multicast traffic to begin with, say your home based wireless network where you just use it for basic internet and gaming use. IGMP Snooping will not help with any of the wifi performance issue. It will in fact be wasted resources for your router to listen or monitor for nonexistent type of traffic on your wifi setup.

When to Enable IGMP Snooping for Home Use

For a home based network, you should enable it when you frequently use any kind of streaming or mirroring from your devices to stream to Apple TV or Chromecast. In some brand firmware such as Asus, enabling IGMP Snooping can fix some of the Apple TV Airplay mirroring issues.

One of the most commonly reported problem is that Apple TV’s streaming function does not work when you stream with Airplay mirroring from a device such as iphone, ipad, or mac connected with a 5 Ghz frequency. (However you can still use mirroring with a 2.4 Ghz frequency).

You should generally leave the IGMP Snooping option as disabled if you do not use mirroring functions or other type of multicast traffic. In this case, leaving IGMP Snooping as “enabled” has no advantage and can waste some of the processing power since your router will be constantly monitoring applicable multicast transmissions that simply do not exist on your network.

Gingerbeard posted:

Fascinating thread this as I have consistently experienced the exact same problem. ...

I have been running MinimServer (a UPnP server), mpd (a music player daemon) and upmpdcli (a renderer) for about one year on a Debian GNU/Linux system running on a fitpc3. The fitpc3 is connected to my LAN wirelessly. Among all devices connected to my LAN, it has by far the poorest transfer rate (about 1/4 of the other devices) and signal strenght. Still, it consistently takes less than one second for Linn Kazoo (a control point for iOS, Android, OS X and Windows) to discover MinimServer and upmpdcli (and, in fact, two more UPnP servers and a ChromeCast renderer) and to present me my music collection according to my specific browsing indexes. The control point is very responsive and streaming from the MinimServer to upmpdcli works flawlessly and starts immediately. Even streaming 24/192 files to the ChromeCast renderer (in the kitchen) works flawlessly even though it takes a few seconds to start. I do not have a particularly capable router and I didn't have to set any specific router option. I have never tried a Naim streamer but I would expect it to work flawlessly in my current setup. It should not be very difficult for the OP to systematically check his UPnP server, his 272, his control point and his router as suggested by many contributors.

jasons posted:

As others have said, and from what you will do, it sounds like a network issue.

 

However, Naim have never been 100% with their firmware.

 

DVD5 anyone?

Since the last visit to the german distributor my s/h dvd5 works perfect .

Mark, you are right, IGMP snooping is all about switching devices listening to the traffic on a switch port( this can be a switch port on a router).

What is it listening too? ... it's listening to the multicast routing protocol... and specifically, what devices on a port are requesting access to a multicast group. A multicast group is a collection of devices that all talk to each other via a specific multicast IP address, this is different from the devices own IP address. If a device belongs to the group by registering and joining that group using IGMP , the multicast data for that group is allowed on the port.

But you can see if the multicast routing protocol implementation is not quite right or there is interoperability issues between the router managing the multicast routing protocol and the client, it can all end in tears.. in my experience consumer equipment can be particularly troublesome here even...

Therefore the workaround can be  to turn off group management IGMP  monitoring on the switch ports by switching off IGMP snooping. This forces the switch to broadcast multicast traffic to all ports... thereby circumventing interoperability issues.

When we sometimes recommend a little Netgear unmanaged switch for people to use who have discovery issues or devices disappearing on the network , technically behind the scenes this is for the same main reason. A simple switch ignores IGMP and simpy broadcasts traffic to all ports if it has a multicast address.

So what is the downside of disabling IGMP snooping and blindly broadcasting multicast data?

For UPnP Discovery, technically called SSDP, the impact is almost none existent as the amount of data multicast is minuscule. Other applications my stream video or audio to multiple devices in a group using multicast... now if blindly broadcast this can clog a network up and unduly load connected devices, as they will always need look at broadcast traffic to see if it's relevant for them... in these cases it's best to use IGMP snooping.

However for most right now who are not using media multicast services,  if there are  issues with your router running IGMP with your Naim or other clients, then disable IGMP snooping on the router switchports, or where you can't, use a simple unmanaged switch to connect router, media NAS, renderer and wifi access point together .. it achieves the same thing on the home network.

However if you are using multicast services such as multicast video, audio and IPTV for example and are still having UPnP discovery issues - then leave IGMP enabled on the router and IGMP snooping enabled on its switch pots - and use a little  unmanaged switch to connect your audio devices and Naim app wifi together and connect that the router switch port.

Simon

Spotted immediately in your opening post, DrMark.

You've a crap router.

Simples.

Huge posted:

Gingerbeard posted:

Fascinating thread this as I have consistently experienced the exact same problem. I have a Unitiqute2 (brought pre loved) and in 2 years of owning have never gone to the qute to play music and it found the network immediately. It always states no network! I have set a static IP address on the router and this initially made it marginally more stable. Often it just hangs for ages and then results in it displaying an Error message. The only way to resolve this is switch the qute off for a couple of minutes, then turn it back on, it then discovers the network. I am running an ASus n66 router into a VM super hub set in modem mode, I also have a Synology 212 Nas with Minimserver installed. I have often wondered if it is an issue with the qute, the network or both! Trouble is we also have Sonos equipment in a few rooms accessing the same network and this never skips a beat, so what is so different? 

The OP has my sympathies., having been through the same frustrations I totally get where he is coming from. This is not cheap equipment and as such you expect things to just work. You wouldn't buy a new car and expect to have fiddle about with the engine in order to take it for a drive! It has been very tempting to cut my losses and to try another manufacturer - Auralic Aries being one possible option! 

UnitiQute uses standard Network (DLNA) protocols for a streaming device, Sonos rolled their own streaming protocols built using standard computer data transfer network message techniques.  Try getting a Sonos system to work with HiRes (tip, it's network protocols aren't sufficiently flexible to do this reliably, so they don't support it.)!

The problem probably lies with with the Asus router or the VM Super Hub not being set in a way that allows DLNA discovery to work reliably.  When I had exactly that same problem it was cured by turning off IGMP snooping - don't blame Naim for problems where your network mucks up the handling of perfectly standard protocols.

When we first switched to Virgin we got an Asus 66, as it was the one all the web reviews seemed to recommend as working best with cable broadband. I found it very tricky to set up and we had a few problems with the network going funny and things not working. Since swapping to an AirPort Extreme we have had no problems at all, other than once having to reboot the 272. This might be something for Dr Mark to consider as well. 

One thing I've noticed in this discussion is that a lot of you guys seem to have very complicated setups and I'm not quite sure why (unless I just don't understand the terminology - I'm not the most expert techie on the planet).

I have an Android powered mobile, a TP Link N600 router and a ND5 XS. Everything works fine!

Could these problems be coming from too many attempts to "personalise" individual setups with bits and pieces with which NAIM soft and hardware was never designed to be compatible ?

Mike1951 posted:

One thing I've noticed in this discussion is that a lot of you guys seem to have very complicated setups and I'm not quite sure why (unless I just don't understand the terminology - I'm not the most expert techie on the planet).

I have an Android powered mobile, a TP Link N600 router and a ND5 XS. Everything works fine!

Could these problems be coming from too many attempts to "personalise" individual setups with bits and pieces with which NAIM soft and hardware was never designed to be compatible ?

 

So no music files stored on a NAS, TV set top box or computer(s) linked to the network/internet ? The number of devices on even a fairly simple network soon add up.

sjbabbey posted:

Mike1951 posted:

One thing I've noticed in this discussion is that a lot of you guys seem to have very complicated setups and I'm not quite sure why (unless I just don't understand the terminology - I'm not the most expert techie on the planet).

I have an Android powered mobile, a TP Link N600 router and a ND5 XS. Everything works fine!

Could these problems be coming from too many attempts to "personalise" individual setups with bits and pieces with which NAIM soft and hardware was never designed to be compatible ?

 

So no music files stored on a NAS, TV set top box or computer(s) linked to the network/internet ? The number of devices on even a fairly simple network soon add up.

Some files on a USB, no set top box (casting from mobile), laptop switched when occasionally used...

Gosh. A fairly spartan setup there, I must admit I don't think I manage with having to use USB drive(s) for playback given the size of the music libraries we tend to amass these days.

Or perhaps that's the problem

Less is more.

Mike1951 posted:

Less is more.

Beau Brummel is an odd person to quote in this context!  

This doesn't solve the OP's problem, but maybe is food for thought for people contemplating change or entering for the first time:  Many of the problems that seem to crop up with networks are avoided if the music is stored in the same box as the renderer, sending a rendered output direct to DAC (whether external via a dedicated link, or internal), where connection to network is not needed for music play from your own files, only for loading downloads, backups or for online streaming services etc.  Examples include the Melco, MacMini/Audirvana and now the new Uniti Core.

Innocent Bystander posted:

This doesn't solve the OP's problem, but maybe is food for thought for people contemplating change or entering for the first time:  Many of the problems that seem to crop up with networks are avoided if the music is stored in the same box as the renderer, sending a rendered output direct to DAC (whether external via a dedicated link, or internal), where connection to network is not needed for music play from your own files, only for loading downloads, backups or for online streaming services etc.  Examples include the Melco, MacMini/Audirvana and now the new Uniti Core.

On the sidelines, digesting information.

 Haven't entered the world of Streaming, I think.

 Att--+modem--+Ethernet--+Airport Extreme--+MM

Airport extreme/router--+ 3 x Airport expresses

Library/Music stored on iTunes/App.

Ripped from CDs and purchased from iTunes.

4 days of music none stop, endless number of personal playlist, all controlled from Android phone interacting with MM i.e Remote II App.

I've been under the notion, that a direct connection is always better than a wireless one, but it doesn't sound bad when compared to Cdx2/282.

Question:

Would the purchase of Audirvanna app, allow me to Stream?

Sorry to side track, please excuse me OP,  just making sure I'm on the right track, before I jump into Streaming.

That's what I love about the Forum, a wealth of information!

 Allante93!

Allante93 posted:

 

Question:

Would the purchase of Audirvanna app, allow me to Stream?

Sorry to side track, please excuse me OP,  just making sure I'm on the right track, before I jump into Streaming.!

 Allante93!

It will play music from a hard disk on the Mac Mini (or other Mac, though best to have one wholly dedicated to music, and 'headless' without monitor or keyboard) and if desired from another store on an attached network, these commonly referred to as streaming - but I assume you mean online streaming. Audirvana currently integrates Tidal, Quobuz and Highresaudio Virtualvault, so it can stream from them (N.B. I have no experience as I have no interest in online streaming). IT doesn't integrate internet radio, though I know its very accessible developer has been asked by users to consider adding. 

So...(or perhaps better, "Allora...")

Last night late as I was about to do my complete shut down and restart sequence, I first thought to reset the 272 to factory settings (probably because I am lazy) so I did this via the Naim remote. Upon completion (a few minutes) of course it sees no network, so I went though the network setup process, found my network, entered the network password (now that's a load of fun with the Naim remote & 272 interface) and gave it a moment to locate the 2 servers (both are on the same Vortexbox). It found them.

So I maneuvered to a cut via Naim remote, and stared playing. Music.  No drop out. Let it go to the end of the tune (since I had been decoyed before). OK, Now I went to the Neil Young cut that had been the one where all this started. Played fine. Then to another artist. Played 2 cuts. (What is that noise? Oh yes,  it is music coming from my system!)

So now I had to try the litmus test - using the Naim app. As had been suggested here, I decided to uninstall and reinstall it on my Nexus 5X phone. Played a cut via the DLNA server set. Worked fine as to play, but the Naim Android app is still a piece of crap. (Of which more in a moment.) I actually played much of a live Paul McCartney album.

When the phone would go to "sleep" in a minute or 2 (as it is supposed to) on restarting the Naim app would lose it's way, and you could see the cut but none of the app interface buttons work,  then it would crash, and then I would have to restart it.

So I thought I would have a happy report. Not so fast Mark.

Just now tried to play a cut via the Naim app, and we are back to the same old s**t. It played for about 5 seconds, then the Naim app displays the "spinning circle of death", and the Naim app claims "another app connected - disconnect other device and try again" with my options being an OK button and  a try again button. Left alone, it eventually just lands on the "rooms" screen with the NACN272-1ABB icon, and we can start all over.

Tried via Naim remote, and got 7 and 2 seconds of music on successive tries...then it returns to the song list poised to pay the last track.

I will go back to the full shutdown and getting router screen shots for anyone here to look. I will also verify about the IGMP snooping being off, since i don't see anything I have read that indicates I would need it to be on. (From what I found online, it appears AT&T leaves it off by default, but I will verify.)

Motherf***er...I have so much stuff to do on weekends, and this just did not factor into it all time wise.

Here are router shots - hopefully they can be seen well enough for those in the know to provide feedback. To my untrained eye, it actually does look like IGMP is turned on, and I did not see a means by which to turn it off, so I will (shudder) have to call the bots at AT&T to see how that might be done.

The first 2 are the top & bottom of the same screen, the 3rd is the IGMP window:

IGMP page:

That stuff is a bit beyond me, but have you tried connecting the streamer and server to a switch, with wires, and then connecting the switch to the router?

Hi Nigel - as you can see, it is beyond me too. No I have not as yet tried that.

I am not adverse to trying anything, as long as I understand why I am doing it - I fear getting into a state of just buying network gear for the sake of trying anything, and it devolves into just throwing money at a problem, without knowing what or why I am doing it...and then not resolving the issue.

It has never been optimal, but I have had this setup for a number of months now (since May?) and I have never been dead in the water. OTOH, why did it work last night for about an hour or so? I was so happy (relieved?) to have music it was why I didn't post about it - I wanted to listen and play guitar with Macca.

As an aside; how are you recovering? A few weeks ago a forum member gave me some details about your accident...sounded like you are fortunate to still be with us.

Thanks for asking, Mark. Yes, the doctors weren't initially expecting me to survive, and were most surprised when I awoke from the induced coma. I'm also lucky not be be completely deaf in my right ear - another surprise to the doctors! I'm recoveringmuch faster than they expected though still get dizzy, confused and very tired. I can now walk about five miles non stop, but cannot run or ride my bike, as I feel too unstable. But I've got a disabled person's bus pass so can get around, which is brilliant. I won't be working this year and it's unclear when or if I will return, but I've been instructed not to worry and to take each day as it comes. 

So thanks again for asking, and do try some wires. Is it possible? They are dirt cheap. 

So much progress, then so much disappointment. Glad and sad for you at the same time. 

Given the success with multiple network interactions including searching, selecting and playing, the factory reset seems like a good and successful beginning. To me this says your network, 272, IR remote are pretty fine. Maybe do that reset once more to be back in known good territory. 

I'm  iOS not Android so can't help with details, but a short bit of pain to uninstall the Naim app and have a secret be clean slate seems like a good idea, especially if you have not done that since your OS upgrade (when your troubles began). 

Keep going, this is progress. Not fun on a busy weekend, but better to fix. As Winston Churchill said: "When you're going through hell, keep going."

Regards alan

Hi Drmark,

Hungryhalibut is right, please try with the external router or switch. Are you using only modem/router from your internet provider?

Kacper

DrMark

I still think this is your router and I still think, as I set out yesterday, that you should move your 272 to be close to your router, turn off the Android app, and use a cable to see whether that helps the 272 to keep seeing the network (I am betting that it will). Then you can try using the Android app again, but still with the 272 wired to your router.  If the cable helps then a switch may help some more, but let's come back to that later.

best

David

I though DrMark reported quite a bit of success after 272 reset and things were working (albeit without convenience) until launching the Android App... so I thought it more likely toto be an app interaction (possibly exposing a router settings issue, but that is deeper). I agree trying wired to 272, even temporarily as part of diagnosis, might give info. But if it all goes sideways as soon as the App is launched, I'd look there first. 

Regards alan