Dear Naim...

alan33 posted:

I though DrMark reported quite a bit of success after 272 reset and things were working (albeit without convenience) until launching the Android App... so I thought it more likely toto be an app interaction (possibly exposing a router settings issue, but that is deeper). I agree trying wired to 272, even temporarily as part of diagnosis, might give info. But if it all goes sideways as soon as the App is launched, I'd look there first. 

Regards alan

One reason I think it is a router problem is because it all went pear-shaped when he tried the app again. The app is trying to talk to the 272 via the same wifi connection the 272 is using. That should work fine and if it doesn't, and still doesn't once the app is off again, then it pretty well has to be the router.

best

David

Dear DrMark,

No help whatsoever, but I love your SSID. Goes neatly with the logo to the right of AT&T.

Always worth while having a switch but I have one in my chain and it has made no difference! That said, I have not checked the IGMP settings that Huge mentioned so this may well have an impact. Although I don't really want to loose the ability to mirror as I do this from my iPad frequently. If the IGMP fails to remove anything I may well try an AE that HH advised about

Thanks all for the tips, as always a fab resource this forum 

OK now for the latest.

1) I uninstalled the Naim app from my android device.

2) Turned off EVERYTHING network related; all computers, the router, SBT, 272, etc.

3) Installed the Naim app for iOS on my old iPhone 4S, that had been out in the garage. (That was a bit of an ordeal for reasons that won't be gotten into here, but as with anything about this episode, nothing goes easily.)

4) Brought the entire network up one piece at a time, starting with the router.

5) Had to leave to officiate 2 hockey games (9:20 & 11:15 PM - ain't that some s**t?), so I just left everything "seasoning".

6) Came home and just got almost through 3 songs (initiated by the Naim iOS app), and once again it stopped - 272 said "No Network", then "Connecting".

7) Restarted a different cut with the iOS app, and it is playing now.

8) Inasmuch as it is 1:13 AM, I will have to leave it at that, and try the app again in the morning. Still have yet to call AT&T about how I can turn off IGMP, because I believe (?) it is on. I think we may have what we refer to in medicine as a "multifactorial condition"...and the music JUST stopped as I typed that.

9) Since last night had the most robust result with factory reset and finding the network again, I may try that and see how it all goes with only iOS app control. The full shut down was done, but still lingering on the other...but that PoS router is coming more into view.

DrMark - as I wrote before - 'input initialising / no network /connecting' are either network issues or....  A faulty cable / socket in one of the components will also give you the same symptomps.

Adam Zielinski posted:

DrMark - as I wrote before - 'input initialising / no network /connecting' are either network issues or....  A faulty cable / socket in one of the components will also give you the same symptomps.

 

Yes but his Naim is all wireless at the moment........

I think this is a wireless router which is either badly designed, incorrectly set up or faulty.....

best

David

The more you detail the problems, the more it seems like a router problem. I had similar with various Naims in the past, until I switched my router into 'Modem only' mode and put an Airport Extreme in to cover router and Wi-Fi functions. Since then, solid as a rock with NDS, NaimUniti and Mu-sos, not to mention a host of other wireless review products.

But would definitely vote for cabled connection from router to the 272 if at all possible. Much more stable.

Our setup is exactly as Andrew describes - Virgin cable hub in modem mode, AirPort Extreme, wire to switch, wires to NAS and 272 and Qb. It's no consolation to Mark to say that it 'just works' but it does. The Extreme is a doddle to set up with no need to go near IGMP and all that techy stuff. If I was you, Mark, this is what I'd do. 

I have experienced the problems you describe Dr Mark (not in such a frustrating quantity or manner or with the same Naim streamer though). I could trot out a long tiresome post describing the setup, symptoms, remedies attempted, phone calls with Steve and Phil etc. My  most stable setup in house1 coincided with the adoption of a cheap dLink (I think!) 'switch' for a network of one wireless and one wired uniti device.

Having bought another uniti device (used wirelessly) and moved from the UK (BT craprouter) to France (SFR) I wired everything up basically (including a 25m run of basic cat5 cable to my SuperUniti) off the back of the router, no switch etc.

Since changing home / country / router I have had zero problems with two wireless Qutes and a wired SU (two iPads chopping and changing control of various 'rooms' daily). I tested my 'crap 25m cable and NAS and French router' against the same hi-res files off a USB stick direct from the front panel and could detect no discernable difference. Thus the 'forgotten' switch remains boxed and its whereabouts a mystery atm!

The odd thing about your story is the 'another app..' blocking on your network, and believe me I got used to readding the network key from the naim remote... I think a switch may help your situation. Good luck.

Hi DrMark, I have been watching this thread with interest as I had similar issues with my 272.

At the North West show this year I told one of the Naim guys what was going on. At first I got a very defensive, almost aggressive response to my questions which I found a bit strange. After I pressed on the matter the chap, who in the end was extremely nice and helpful, issued the following advice.

Change the power plug adapters for a Ethernet run of cable, at the time i was unaware that external CAT 6 was available. This was surprisingly inexpensive to do.

Next I told him that that Alan Gibb from the Chord company had suggested that I move my NAS drive next to the 272 and connect both via a switch out to the Ethernet cable, using one of their cables from the 272 to the switch of course . The Naim guy agreed that this may help.

I am not computer illiterate but to be honest some of the replies from the chaps do go over my head, I can not explain why this fixed my issues but ever since I implemented all of the above my 272 has 99% worked flawlessly.

Good luck finding a fix

Rod

David Hendon posted:

Adam Zielinski posted:

DrMark - as I wrote before - 'input initialising / no network /connecting' are either network issues or....  A faulty cable / socket in one of the components will also give you the same symptomps.

 

Yes but his Naim is all wireless at the moment........

I think this is a wireless router which is either badly designed, incorrectly set up or faulty.....

best

David

David - that is correct. 

I added the cable bit just as a warning for completnes sake. If one of the wires is a bit loose in a LAN cable, typically at one of the plugs, the symptoms may be the same. 

Adam

I think it's worth it a try with the external router which has a stronger and more stable wifi signal (TP-LINK, NETGEAR etc.)

Usually those modems/ routers from local internet providers are not so good (based on my experience with modem/router from cisco delivered by Ziggo b.v. - local internet provider )

Kacper

Hello all - and thanks once again for all the feedback, reassurance, and ideas. I am working to enact a solution based on these (the AE idea seems most compelling) but I wanted to give an update as of this morning.

Got up, picked up the iPhone, fired up a Pat Metheny album, and it has been playing for about 15+ minutes without incident.

I literally have 3 routers in a closet, including a pretty nice one I got at Costco not long before I ended up with this proprietary AT&T bulls**t when I moved in here. I wonder if it would be possible to switch out the AT&T router for just a modem of their proprietary nonsense and then connect to my own router. (A Netgear R4500 if anyone is familiar with that piece of gear.)

I have to get to work (and I am trying to come up with an explanation for my boss as to why I didn't do any of the training modules I was going to do this weekend. Somehow I don't think "Well I couldn't get to them because my 272 was jacked up and wouldn't play music" is going to play very well.

Pat Metheny now playing uninterrupted for over a half hour...and goddammit literally just as I typed those words, it ceased. The 272 was on "Stopped, press play to etc".

I think both my router and the Andriod Naim app are party to this whole mess, inasmuch as performance with the android app not even present has improved significantly &the fact that it all went to s**t after an android update. That said, as Adam has steadfastly maintained all along, the router is clearly also hurting things.

Note to Naim - shoot your android programmers, and get new ones.

As an interesting aside (to me anyway) after being not used for many months, the Squeezebox app on the iPhone just picked up where it left off and ran the SBT also - when I moved to Android, the Logitech app no longer operated on the android platform, hence i had to use Squeezer on my Nexus phone.

I also think it is of some interest that the "workflow" of the iOS Naim app is a little different (and not as stupid) as the Android version...although some of that may be all the connectivity issues playing into things. But the main difference I noticed is that if you tap from the song list at the bottom to bring the song into view, it "overlays" the song list in a sort of translucent fashion, and can be "x'd" off to return to the song list, whereas the Android version goes another level "deeper". The android app often returns to the UPnP icon and you have to work your way back in again.

Mark, not wishing to be a pain in the backside, and bearing in mind that I have described our setup previously, whilst Hilary and I both control the system with iOS devices, it's worth mentioning that my two sons both control it with their Android phones and it all works faultlessly every time. So, in the nicest possible way, I'd suggest that you'd be best to focus on sorting out a decent router and a wired network rather than blaming Naim's developers and software. 

"I wonder if it would be possible to switch out the AT&T router for just a modem of their proprietary nonsense and then connect to my own router. (A Netgear R4500 if anyone is familiar with that piece of gear.)"

- You need to call AT&T and ask them for "bridge mode"
"bridge mode"means that all router functionality at your modem are off .

Kacper

if you contact the AT&T support - or check their user forums - you might see some third party router/modems that have been shown to work directly with the service. You will need to know how  AT&T authenticates on service connection and what the connection protocol is  - this is probably on a FAQ somewhere on their site. Typically a username/password and sometimes other fields will be required along with the access protocol often , PPP over ATM or PPP over Ethernet.

If this is locked down, I'd be surprised, but in which case you will need to use the old router as a modem in so called 'bridge' mode and use that to provide a PPP connection to the 'WAN' port on your third party router. Again PPP over Ethernet is a common access type here.

S

I'm now also with David in the wifi / router camp given your latest tests. If you have spare routers, try everything - perhaps starting a complete "inside" network, connecting only 272, NAS and iPhone or Android phone using wired or wireless as you are able. As an alternative, if able, put your router and not wireless bridge mode, connect to your existing wifi network, and use a short Ethernet run to your 272. I am using this mode for my two systems , an Asus RT-N66U for a SuperUniti on the ground floor and an Apple Airport Express on the second level. I also have a separate Asus in the basement wired to the crap ISP router as a more robust wifi access point. The ISP router is still routing, doing dhcp, etc but is out of the wifi or bridge equation. 

Shouldnt be needed, no, but has been infinitely more stable for me. 

Regards alan

ps - those are late games to coach or referee! Ice time must be at a premium where you live now...

Yes to all - I will be moving towards some sort of router replacement or bypass strategy, without a doubt.

Yes Alan, now that the kids are playing again, the adult leagues have been bumped to late - I only do it because it pays better and with impending layoffs I have to try to rat hole as much money as I can for any possible lapses. Of course, the work world is just loaded with openings for 59 year old guys, so I probably worry unnecessarily!

That is most intere4sting Nigel, although I would ask if your kids have the latest Nougat update - that is when everything started to go south in a serious way...that said, I am going to look into switch and router and AE or whatever, and remove AT&T form the equation as much as is humanly possible.

Simon - I have searched previously to see what could be done to replace their crap with something else, but never found anything. I initially looked because they started charging $7 or so a month for it. They use dot let you buy it, albeit at an inflated price, but you could recover your money in about a year and a half or so. Now they no longer offer that option, preferring instead to bleed you of cash indefinitely. I truly do hate them, but the alternative here is no better.

Garyi put me onto the Asus RT-AC68U router, which has been quite impressive, both for WiFi power and general stability.  My DSL modem, provided by CenturyLink is now dedicated just to the broadband connection, with its own WiFi radio turned off.

I consider the routers provided as intended only to get you started.  

Nick

Giving an update here, if anyone cares on how the saga is/has been unfolding. This week has been stupid busy with a 2 day work conference, preparing to close on dumping my rental property (and the closing attorney allegedly found a lien on the property, which really wasn't, but guess who had to do all the leg work), lining up a repair guy for all the inspection items (that still ongoing), and an autographed guitar that was delivered via FedEx, only to not be there when I got home, which resulted in a panicked set of calls, walking the neighborhood to see if it was at another house....finally to discover it had been left at the right house number on the wrong street...grrrrr...

So minimal time for Naim streaming, but some (perhaps) interesting developments.

Since eliminating the Android app, the situation is (a) working, and (b) MUCH more stable. Apparently whatever Naim did on that app  to work with Nougat to get  was barely acceptable, and then when the update for the OS came, it blew it apart...but using my old iPhone with the iOS app has been generally on point.

However, there is also no question that those of you who have pointed fingers at my shite router are also correct. I called AT&T and asked about IGMP snooping - I might as well have asked about the solution to world hunger. They had no clue about it, and I have a tab on my router for it when I log in tot he device, but there does not appear to be any ability to alter it or turn it off....an internet search revealed nothing to me.

There are still times where I have to resort to the Naim remote to "wake up" the 272, because it sees no network and the iOS app cannot find the 272 ("room") because the 272 doesn't see the network until it is prompted to look. However, this is not every time (as it was previously) - perhaps 25% of the time, and only if the 272 has been sitting idle for an extended period. (But I just fired up the system using the iOS app  after being off all night and it worked flawlessly.)

Biggest downside is having to switch devices to run the system - basically it now has 2 remotes, the Naim one and the iPhone. Not the end of the world, but it was (would be) convenient to have everything operating off one rig. It would be experimentally interesting to re-load the Android app on my phone, but I don't dare screw everything up now that it is working at about a 90% level.

So...net/net, my router sucks, and I need to address this with one of the solutions suggested here, but the Naim Android app sucks even more, at least when working with the latest Nougat version of the OS. My firing squad recommendation for the Android programmers still stands.

Hi Dr Mark,

Instead of using the Naim IR remote to 'wake' the network connection of the 272 you could try pressing the <ok / list> ( or possibly <exit> ) button on the front panel; you may find one of them does the same thing!

May I also present another view...

Android 7 is supposed to be backwardly compatible with Android 6 (& 5, & 4).

You took an application the works fine with Android 6 (& 5, & 4) and changed the operating system under it.  When you made that change, the change broke the app.  Which is at fault?  An application that works fine on Android 6 and hasn't changed or the  backward compatibility of Android 7.

This is an Android fault not a Naim app fault - blame Google, not Naim's Android team.  The fault was caused by changes to the Android OS code; it can't have been caused by changes to the Naim App code as there aren't any.

Oh I don't let Google's coders off the hook, but the Naim Android app never worked very well for me, even at its best when I had it going - it was always a case of "Gee, will it work THIS time?" and fiddling for 2-5 minutes to get it to work.I would say it operated without any intervention at best 25% of the time - and I definitely attribute some of that to my PoS router.

I agree with your point about backwards compatibility with Android, However, I have a large number of apps on my Android phone, and all of them continue to operate as they should. (Although, as mentioned previously, the Logitech version of the SB app no longer worked with even older versions of Android, while the iOS version still does on the latest iOS.)

I know the center button on the 272 would accomplish the same thing, but then I'd have to get up off my always tired butt! (Excuse me, bottom.)

Why not just get a dedicated iPad for the system? You can get a used one for under $200 (I got a 2 with a  small dent on the side for $125 from a reseller). Just leave it in the room with the hifi and you are always good. No need for the latest greatest if its only going to be used as a 'remote.' I'm an android phone user myself but no way would it cut it so I considered an iPad as part of the hifi purchase. I also have a version 1 in the office still running the original nstream for my UQ1 that I picked up for under $100. Just make the plunge for a used no frills iPad as a dedicated remote and then move on. The router is another problem, but again, call your provider and most have a list of approved modems/routers. I suggest going with just a modem if possible, and then into switches, from which you can then have your wifi router separate. For example, I go basic Netgear modem > Netgear GS108 switch for all traffic (including going to an Apple Airport Extreme on its own > D-link GS105 for audio only. I also have a switch upstairs in the bedroom and elsewhere. 

I do find it extraordinary how many people buy $10-20K of streaming audio gear and then don't to invest in the network. In computer audio you need to think about your network as part of the source - much as one might a tonearm, etc on a turntable. Linear power supplies on switches, fancy ethernet cables etc do make difference. One my modest $8k total system, at least 10% of that was invested in the network cabling, power etc. Its worth it imo, as much as stand or other tweaks.