TIDAL Again....

Regardless how Naim and Tidal handling packet losses and recovery on the music stream, I think the size of the local memory buffer plays a big role since I've never had dropouts on my Mac Mini playing Audirvana, but constant dropouts with the Naim streamer every 5 minutes during the evening.

Nic-Collins, its a combination of latency and the buffer sizes of the Streamer TCP segment buffers ... The higher network latency is for a given throughput, the bigger the TCP segment buffers need to be.......

In other words my £400 Smartphone or Tablet can outperform my £1300 Naim Streamer ;-)

banzai posted:

Regardless how Naim and Tidal handling packet losses and recovery on the music stream, I think the size of the local memory buffer plays a big role since I've never had dropouts on my Mac Mini playing Audirvana, but constant dropouts with the Naim streamer every 5 minutes during the evening.

I've never had dropouts on my MBP + Audirvana. I would like to stream with my second kit (UQ2) to see wht happens.

Burgy100 posted:

...

Now please can I have some clarification on this subject. Is this to do with TIDAL or NAIM?

...

It seems to me that the question is not whether it has to do with TIDAL or NAIM.

If I understand your post correctly, the question is whether, with your specific internet connection and LAN, the problems that you are experiencing are specific of TIDAL and NAIM or whether you would experience the same problems with TIDAL and non-NAIM devices.

In the first case, you can hope that upgrades in NAIM's firmware will solve your problems. In the second case, you can still hope that upgrades in NAIM's firmware will solve your problems but this seems less likely.

None can answer (my understanding of) your question definitively apart from yourself. Simply try to access TIDAL through your ND5 and, at the same time, with another device (a tablet computer, for instance) early in the evening and on different days.

Nic-collins posted:

In other words my £400 Smartphone or Tablet can outperform my £1300 Naim Streamer ;-)

As far as you consider the capability of decoding internet audio streams, I would be very surprised if this was not the case.

Even a cheap smartphone or tablet is likely to have more memory and computing power than a Naim streamer. On the top of this, a tablet has to fulfil significantly lower sound quality requirements than a Naim streamer.

I frankly do not understand Naim's decision of implementing internet streaming capabilities at the streamers' firmware level. But then I also do not understand why so many users build their single room systems on the basis of multi-room streaming solutions. And, if I think about it, I do not understand so many other things ...

nbpf posted:

Nic-collins posted:

In other words my £400 Smartphone or Tablet can outperform my £1300 Naim Streamer ;-)

 

I frankly do not understand Naim's decision of implementing internet streaming capabilities at the streamers' firmware level. But then I also do not understand why so many users build their single room systems on the basis of multi-room streaming solutions. And, if I think about it, I do not understand so many other things ...

Why does (TIDAL) streaming have anything to do with multi-room streaming?

A good streaming solution is a ChromeCast Audio into an NDac using an optical cable. This allows you to use Tidal / Spotify or music from your local NAS.

No drop outs, and at least on the NDX level quality - and much cheaper.

Lets see how the new Uniti line handles streaming, thats quite the future.  If it appears to be good, hurrah! If not, Naim should reconsider the way to handle streaming. I must say it is promissing that they support Google Cast now.

nbpf posted:

 

- snip - .... And, if I think about it, I do not understand so many other things ...

Wisdom!

... while Ardbeg10y is happily listening to the by NBPF recommended Digital Concert Hall ...

Ardbeg10y posted:

A good streaming solution is a ChromeCast Audio into an NDac using an optical cable. This allows you to use Tidal / Spotify or music from your local NAS.

No drop outs, and at least on the NDX level quality - and much cheaper.

Lets see how the new Uniti line handles streaming, thats quite the future.  If it appears to be good, hurrah! If not, Naim should reconsider the way to handle streaming. I must say it is promissing that they support Google Cast now.

Does ChromeCast Audio sound better than Airplay playing TIDAL HIFI? 

banzai posted:

Ardbeg10y posted:

A good streaming solution is a ChromeCast Audio into an NDac using an optical cable. This allows you to use Tidal / Spotify or music from your local NAS.

No drop outs, and at least on the NDX level quality - and much cheaper.

Lets see how the new Uniti line handles streaming, thats quite the future.  If it appears to be good, hurrah! If not, Naim should reconsider the way to handle streaming. I must say it is promissing that they support Google Cast now.

Does ChromeCast Audio sound better than Airplay playing TIDAL HIFI? 

I can't say because I have not compared AirPlay with Google Cast regarding SQ. I also doubt if I could hear a difference on my setup.

Theoretically, both can feed a Dac using the optical cable - either from a ChromeCast Audio or in context of Airplay an Airport Express or so. It comes down to the way the streaming is integrated on the hardware device and for ChromeCast Audio I know it is done well. I have not seen much issues on AirPlay around. Suppose it is done well.

One important thing. My missus can stream from her IOS device to the ChromeCast Audio, whilst Apple do not want to eat my Google Cast protocol.

I've very rarely get get drop outs on TIDAL on our N272 or MUSO OB or QB..... but all but the QB, drop out on the BBC radio HD channels on a regular basis.  

banzai posted:

nbpf posted:

Nic-collins posted:

In other words my £400 Smartphone or Tablet can outperform my £1300 Naim Streamer ;-)

 

I frankly do not understand Naim's decision of implementing internet streaming capabilities at the streamers' firmware level. But then I also do not understand why so many users build their single room systems on the basis of multi-room streaming solutions. And, if I think about it, I do not understand so many other things ...

Why does (TIDAL) streaming have anything to do with multi-room streaming?

My understanding is that one of the prominent features of streaming solutions based on a UPnP server sending data to streamers through a LAN switch is that the (same or different) data can easily be sent to different rooms. By constrast, solutions based on a player (for instance a UPnP server + UPnP renderer running on the same machine) running on a server directly connected to a DAC via USB or S/PDIF are less suitable for multi-room replay. For users which are not interested in multi-room replay, solutions of the second kind are valuable alternatives to solutions based on Naim streamers. I might be mistaken, of course.

Nope, music streaming is point-to-point i.e. a single server to a single receiver.

Very interesting to hear Ardbeg10Y's comments on Chromecast. Does this really offer an entry level solution to streaming with high quality replay? Is the Gramofon another option? I principally use CD, but have a growing collection of 16 and 24 bit downloads on my PC, from which I use a USB stick to feed the nDac. Very happy with sound quality, but a little inconvenient. So looking for a solution to dip my toe into the streaming market! Also, hoping it would enable me to stream local content from the downloaded files stored on my PC. I realise a miniMac is another option...and no doubt there are others, but obviously these solutions cost considerably more. Any thoughts? Thanks. 

banzai posted:

Nope, music streaming is point-to-point i.e. a single server to a single receiver.

Sure, but this does not invalidate my point: a UPnP server can easily serve data to different streamers on the LAN. One can also connect multiple DACs to a player, of course. But, if you are interested in multi-room replay, this is a less practicable solution.

I tried a Chromecast and it was awful, with a thin and weedy sound. 

HardBop posted:

Very interesting to hear Ardbeg10Y's comments on Chromecast. Does this really offer an entry level solution to streaming with high quality replay? Is the Gramofon another option? I principally use CD, but have a growing collection of 16 and 24 bit downloads on my PC, from which I use a USB stick to feed the nDac. Very happy with sound quality, but a little inconvenient. So looking for a solution to dip my toe into the streaming market! Also, hoping it would enable me to stream local content from the downloaded files stored on my PC. I realise a miniMac is another option...and no doubt there are others, but obviously these solutions cost considerably more. Any thoughts? Thanks. 

I run MinimServer and upmpdcli (An UPnP Audio Media Renderer based on MPD) on a small fanless microserver connected (via USB to S/PDIF bridge) to a Naim DAC. My music library is on a 2TB HDD connected to the microserver via USB. Backup is on a couple of HDD in different locations via WLAN and rsync scripts. upmpdcli supports streaming Tidal contents but I have never tried it. If you like setting up your own server and renderer, I think that upmpdcli is a great tool for a single-room replay system with support for Tidal and internet radio. You can control it with Linn's Kazoo or any OpenHome control point of your choice. Linn Kazoo is very good works flawlessy with MinimServer. MinimServer allows you to browse your music collection according to your own indexing system. I can for instance select a composer, see all the works or compositions of that composers, pick up a specific work and see all interpretations of that work, etc. You can buy a decent microserver for around 200 EUR, check for instance the Fitlet devices at Tiny Green PC. You will have to spend about the same amount of money for a good USB to S/PDIF bridge and have to buy a BNC-BNC cable. Best, nbpf

nbpf posted:

HardBop posted:

Very interesting to hear Ardbeg10Y's comments on Chromecast. Does this really offer an entry level solution to streaming with high quality replay? Is the Gramofon another option? I principally use CD, but have a growing collection of 16 and 24 bit downloads on my PC, from which I use a USB stick to feed the nDac. Very happy with sound quality, but a little inconvenient. So looking for a solution to dip my toe into the streaming market! Also, hoping it would enable me to stream local content from the downloaded files stored on my PC. I realise a miniMac is another option...and no doubt there are others, but obviously these solutions cost considerably more. Any thoughts? Thanks. 

I run MinimServer and upmpdcli (An UPnP Audio Media Renderer based on MPD) on a small fanless microserver connected (via USB to S/PDIF bridge) to a Naim DAC. My music library is on a 2TB HDD connected to the microserver via USB. Backup is on a couple of HDD in different locations via WLAN and rsync scripts. upmpdcli supports streaming Tidal contents but I have never tried it. If you like setting up your own server and renderer, I think that upmpdcli is a great tool for a single-room replay system with support for Tidal and internet radio. You can control it with Linn's Kazoo or any OpenHome control point of your choice. Linn Kazoo is very good works flawlessy with MinimServer. MinimServer allows you to browse your music collection according to your own indexing system. I can for instance select a composer, see all the works or compositions of that composers, pick up a specific work and see all interpretations of that work, etc. You can buy a decent microserver for around 200 EUR, check for instance the Fitlet devices at Tiny Green PC. You will have to spend about the same amount of money for a good USB to S/PDIF bridge and have to buy a BNC-BNC cable. Best, nbpf

NBPF is clearly some steps ahead of me. There are many options around to dip your toe into streaming. Next to my ChromeCast Audio, I consider starting a project with my kids to build a Raspberry Pi with Dac which feeds my Supernait.

Cheapest for now seems to be the ChromeCast Audio which gives decent quality if you connect it via an optical cable to a Dac. I use either the Dac in my SuperNait 1, or the dac in my AV2. Slight difference but not much.

When I stream CD-rips from my NAS (wav files) via the ChromeCast Audio, I have no huge difference between my CD5i(talic) and the streamed version.

I have only noticed 'thin and weedy' sound when data was streamed using a lower bit rate e.g. by real time conversion to MP3.

On this topic Dozey tells about his experience using the ChromeCast Audio into a Naim NDS:

https://forums.naimaudio.com/to...z-into-a-naim-system

Very interesting comment about the ChromeCast Audio into a DAC How is it compared to NDX -> nDAC or Hugo?

I don't know the differences between all the various Naim related Dacs and decent non-Naim Dacs like the Hugo.

But what I do know, is that I was immediately in hifi-territory when I started to stream cd-rips to the ChromeCast Audio optically into an Naim AV2. I don't know if you know the AV2, but it was the Naim Surround Receiver. It also appears to be a good Stereo Dac. Solid bas (was not there when using the ChromeCast Audio Dac), sufficient detail and most importantly easy to use!

Synology Nas --> network --> ChromeCast Audio --> optical cable --> AV2 --> Supernait is just a cheap way to stream on a decent level. I'm sure setups like N272 / 250DR are better, but if you already have a Naim nDac, I would not even hesitate a second and order a ChromeCast Audio to explore the options. It's only 39 USD / EUR and it gives so much fun for the money. From there, you could try options as depicted by NBPF and get more advanced. Stuff like minimServer work also with the ChromeCast Audio and the majority of the time is in setting up the software. Once you are done on ChromeCast Audio, you can move quite easily to more advanced solutions.

Since HIFI is a hobby for many of us, significant part of the joy is to fiddle around with it rather than having a well-balanced setup.

If you order the ChromeCast Audio, dont forget to order an optical cable mini-toslink to toslink if you don't have one already.

Thanks Ardbeg10Y; yes NBPF is well ahead of me also...and thanks to you both. Interestingly a friend is considering the DIY raspberry route, so I'll watch with interest. Your comment about SQ from your NAS with Chromecast v the CD5i is thought provoking. I was obviously hoping that SQ would also come close to that via USB stick (Wav or Flac) into the nDAC, and CD through my CDX2/XpsDR set up.  I'll hope for some other user comments as well, but may well give it a go.

In my experience, when the ripped files are good, any Naim based route is ok. Some NAS software could convert files and this might cause problems. I had that when wav-rips got converted to MP3. Obvious drawback in quality.

I have currently on my wishlist an nDac because it has loads of ports and therefore any digital device can be connected (I have Aiport Express, Apple TV, ChromeCast Audio, the TV itselve, recent MacMini, RaspBerry Pi).

This nDac will then feed my Supernait and the Supernait is supposed to either drive the speakers in the living room, or the speakers in the telly room via a second power-amp. I have not figured out this, but the Supernait seems to be able to feed another amp or preamp using the record section.

If I was Naim, I would kill any development in their own apps and just focus on solid integration of Google Cast + AirPlay.

This, next to a killer-dac + keep up the work on the Amps they build. The Amps are what Naim distincts from other companies and makes me love them. I was hooked from the first moment.

Bit more back to the core competence of the company.

Whatever.

Just done some testing for more than 2 hours, iPad / Tidal HIFI -> Chromecast Audio (24bit/44.1Khz - 2822.4 kbps) into NDAC sounds pretty good to my ears, and no dropouts.

Ardbeg10y posted:

nbpf posted:

HardBop posted:

Very interesting to hear Ardbeg10Y's comments on Chromecast. Does this really offer an entry level solution to streaming with high quality replay? Is the Gramofon another option? I principally use CD, but have a growing collection of 16 and 24 bit downloads on my PC, from which I use a USB stick to feed the nDac. Very happy with sound quality, but a little inconvenient. So looking for a solution to dip my toe into the streaming market! Also, hoping it would enable me to stream local content from the downloaded files stored on my PC. I realise a miniMac is another option...and no doubt there are others, but obviously these solutions cost considerably more. Any thoughts? Thanks. 

I run MinimServer and upmpdcli (An UPnP Audio Media Renderer based on MPD) on a small fanless microserver connected (via USB to S/PDIF bridge) to a Naim DAC. My music library is on a 2TB HDD connected to the microserver via USB. Backup is on a couple of HDD in different locations via WLAN and rsync scripts. upmpdcli supports streaming Tidal contents but I have never tried it. If you like setting up your own server and renderer, I think that upmpdcli is a great tool for a single-room replay system with support for Tidal and internet radio. You can control it with Linn's Kazoo or any OpenHome control point of your choice. Linn Kazoo is very good works flawlessy with MinimServer. MinimServer allows you to browse your music collection according to your own indexing system. I can for instance select a composer, see all the works or compositions of that composers, pick up a specific work and see all interpretations of that work, etc. You can buy a decent microserver for around 200 EUR, check for instance the Fitlet devices at Tiny Green PC. You will have to spend about the same amount of money for a good USB to S/PDIF bridge and have to buy a BNC-BNC cable. Best, nbpf

... Next to my ChromeCast Audio, I consider starting a project with my kids to build a Raspberry Pi with Dac which feeds my Supernait.

...

I have a Raspberry Pi directly connected to my router (a FRITZ!Box) and to a 5TB HDD. I mainly use the Pi to access my LAN resources remotely, for instance, to backup my music files from my office. But I also have MinimServer and minidlna running on the Pi. This allows me to stream music to, among others, a ChromeCast Audio connected to an old radio in the kitchen and videos to a TV. Streaming from the Pi is via wireless and works flawlessly. With 24/192 files it takes a few seconds for replay to start but it then goes on without problems and without gaps. For basic streaming of audio and video contents and as a file server, the Pasperry Pi is great. It has been running for two or three years without interruption.

The other system described in my previous post is for dedicated listening and is completely separated from the Pi. There the microserver (a FitPC3) and the USB bridge are powered by linear PSUs and the connection between the bridge and the Naim DAC is through a Naim DC1. If you plan to connect the Naim DAC to a source that is not electrically clean, the best way to do so is via optical S/PDIF, in my view. If you have a clean source (typically a USB bridge with galvanic isolation) than electrical S/PDIF via a BNC-BNC connector is probably better.