Options to connect NDX / Melco N1A for best output - Newbie Q

If you read the "network isolation " thread you will see that it is possible to put a fibre optic cable for most of the run to your network switch. I haven't tried this myself . 

You don't need fibre or boutique Ethernet cables between the Melco and the Router - you only need this connection to allow control of music via your favoured control device (iPad etc) and allow the Melco access to the Internet for Firmware updates etc. The Melco is acting as your music store and UPnP server and is directly connected to the NDX (I take it these will both be on the same rack) so you'll have a short Ethernet cable between the Player output on the Melco and the NDX. 

The connection from Melco to router - you could either do this via wired Ethernet (best), or if this is not possible then you could use a Wireless bridge will will connect wirelessly to your wireless network and provide the ethernet connection to the Melco. 

And IIRC the Melco has optical isolation on its network socket.

Thanks for the quick replies. I will be playing the additional music via iPhone / iPad (Spotify or new Amazon offering) The NDX and Melco will be on the same rack so no worries on space.  

The issue is the distance between router and Melco. If I'm playing from devices it needs to be connected my the sounds of it.  I'm just wondering if it can be connected any other way without sound loss rather than metres of Ethernet cable from the router   

Innocent Bystander posted:

And IIRC the Melco has optical isolation on its network socket.

Nope - confusion from lazy journalists when launched. 

Sorry Innocent -forgive my naivety if it does have optical isolation on its network socket what does this mean for me and the connection.  

Im not in the least bit tech as you can likely guess.  

Rich Mc posted:

Thanks for the quick replies. I will be playing the additional music via iPhone / iPad (Spotify or new Amazon offering) The NDX and Melco will be on the same rack so no worries on space.  

The issue is the distance between router and Melco. If I'm playing from devices it needs to be connected my the sounds of it.  I'm just wondering if it can be connected any other way without sound loss rather than metres of Ethernet cable from the router   

I'm not sure what sound loss you mean. Unless your network is buggered then you won't have problems. Just out of interest why are you getting the Melco rather than a NAS - did you audition both the NDX and Melco together (not knocking your choice as i used a Melco myself) ?

Listened to this combo at my dealers and sounded great with my setup (aside from speakers).  Have been building it with the guys at Signals (Ipswich) for a while and never let me down with advice and support.  

In short I haven't trialled a NAS.  

Having read multiple posts on the connections there are several that talk about poor sound connections etc which is what I meant by sound loss.   Which is why having a setup in happy with I don't want to mess it up with poor connection - thus seeking the advice of those far more clued in than I am. 

Ah ok - I wouldn't worry about the network issues mentioned in the other thread as this won't really apply to your setup from a SQ point of view. You've got a good dealer so they should be able to get you setup and get you sorted network wise. Enjoy your new toys when you get them. 

James

There is another mode on the Melco for direct playback, bypassing all the internet comms, although this does leave you short on net access and therefore also a decent control point for the playback.

It is another setting called Direct Mode and 1 x Ethernet connects to your NDX and improves the playback, but at a cost of overall flexibility.

Dan43 posted:

There is another mode on the Melco for direct playback, bypassing all the internet comms, although this does leave you short on net access and therefore also a decent control point for the playback.

It is another setting called Direct Mode and 1 x Ethernet connects to your NDX and improves the playback, but at a cost of overall flexibility.

Melco has a separate network connection (optically isolated) for connection to a wireless router for control apps, also for internet connection, e.g. For downloading and to facilitate backups, even streaming to other devices on the network, while the music stored on the Melco and played direct doesn't have to cross the network (avoiding the risk of problems some people experience). I don't know, however, if it has any inbuilt capability for internet streaming services - best ask Melco themselves.

When I heard one it had a control app on a tablet, and I understand there are several options for library software, with other control app options. 

The only reason I didn't go for it myself was that it sounded the same as my Mac Mini/Audirvana, so there is no point in considering change, but if I didn't have that I would have been very interested.

Rich Mc posted:

Am looking for help on my connection options having trawled the forum and wider internet to look for a solution with no luck.  

My set up is 282/ SC / 250DR (Kef Ref 2-2) about to add NDX / Melco N1A to move away from the CD. 

My issue is the distance from my router to the audio to run an Ethernet cable.  Is connecting this cable from the router via a switch box the only option. 

I have sky Q router and wifi booster box separately with an Ethernet output and am just about to finally get fibre connection to the depths of Suffolk!  Can I connect via this booster? Is it possible to get points installed in the room? Is this the best setup to optimise wifi speed and not compromise quality to the audio? 

Not getting system for a couple of weeks so time to make internal mods.  

Help greatly appreciated.  

Thank you

Rich

Tour specific scenario looks to be ideal for the use of the Melco. Your Melco can be close to your NDX on your rack. You could then use ...

1. Either a long Ethernet cable to the Melco to still control the NDX with a tablet...., the NDX would be closely connected to the Melco

2. Get a repeater closer to the Melco

In your scenario the network connection is only relevant for steering the system and for potential use of Tidal, you could live with a less optimal setup from that perspective. The Melco will anyhow separate out the noise as you play directly from the Melco.

Although I use the direct USB connection to my DAC from the Melco, the latter's connected to my network via a long ethernet cable, for control purposes via iPad principally, but it happily supplies a superb source for my Muso tucked away in the conservatory.

Those boys at Signals will sort you out a treat if you have any difficulty.

PS like yourself, we're in remote Suffolk with fibre broadband recently installed down our little lane months ago but yet to be connected. We're on a list apparently...

Innocent Bystander posted:

Dan43 posted:

There is another mode on the Melco for direct playback, bypassing all the internet comms, although this does leave you short on net access and therefore also a decent control point for the playback.

It is another setting called Direct Mode and 1 x Ethernet connects to your NDX and improves the playback, but at a cost of overall flexibility.

Melco has a separate network connection (optically isolated) for connection to a wireless router for control apps, also for internet connection, e.g. For downloading and to facilitate backups, even streaming to other devices on the network, while the music stored on the Melco and played direct doesn't have to cross the network (avoiding the risk of problems some people experience). I don't know, however, if it has any inbuilt capability for internet streaming services - best ask Melco themselves.

When I heard one it had a control app on a tablet, and I understand there are several options for library software, with other control app options. 

The only reason I didn't go for it myself was that it sounded the same as my Mac Mini/Audirvana, so there is no point in considering change, but if I didn't have that I would have been very interested.

There are 2 x Ethernet at the back of the Melco, and I believe are ganged/coupled while in most normal operation or Network Mode, thus allowing the control point/net access and access to the library at the same time.

In Direct Mode the two are unganged/de-coupled,(allowing a clean feed to the streamer from the N1A with zero router/net traffic causing any issues) thus running on their own and independent of each other, and there is no way (I know of) of getting any control point to the library as it is now a single dedicated decoupled connection to your player. I've tried, but a re-visit is probably in order in case I have gotten it wrong, it has been, previously, one of the Melco quirks if you like.

Adding a small battery type portable dedicated WiFi sender/router to the second decoupled Ethernet port provided no control point, for me, while in Direct Mode as I believe that there is no 'connection' to the internal drives/library while the two Ethernet connections are not coupled together, and in that coupled Network mode they bring the router traffic noise to the party. 

For selecting music in Direct Mode I have to use the N272 front panel to navigate to the album files, a pain true, but the only way Direct Mode is working for me at the moment, happy to be told otherwise mind :-)

Read page 20 of their current manual it describes it best there, copy below :

Just a point to note, there is no concept of coupled Ethernet connections (unless we go back to the very early Ethernet tech of the 80s, the ports will be either switched or not, so the Melco will act as a switch or, when in its direct mode, it will disable the switch, and offer a direct connection to the streamer. Now in principle I can't see why one couldn't insert a switch between the Melco and streamer in Direct mode, and in doing so one could use wifi etc if an AP is added to that switch.

On a switched connection with a router connected to internet etc, there is no extra web or internet traffic that goes to the streamer.. the link to the streamer is isolated of all such unicast data.. that is exactly what a switch does for you over legacy hubs.. you don't need more gizmos to do this. The one advantage a seperate isolated link does have however  (such as offered in the Melco direct Ethernet mode)  is to reduce/eliminate local home network  broadcast (and with cheap consumer network equipment) multicast traffic from reaching the streamer. The streamer NIC has to inspect such traffic to see whether to ignore or not. But clearly in doing so you are reducing usability and flexibility. 

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Just a point to note, there is no concept of coupled Ethernet connections (unless we go back to the very early Ethernet tech of the 80s, the ports will be either switched or not, so the Melco will act as a switch or, when in its direct mode, it will disable the switch, and offer a direct connection to the streamer. Now in principle I can't see why one couldn't insert a switch between the Melco and streamer in Direct mode, and in doing so one could use wifi etc if an AP is added to that switch.

On a switched connection with a router connected to internet etc, there is no extra web or internet traffic that goes to the streamer.. the link to the streamer is isolated of all such unicast data.. that is exactly what a switch does for you over legacy hubs.. you don't need more gizmos to do this. The one advantage a seperate isolated link does have however  (such as offered in the Melco direct Ethernet mode)  is to reduce/eliminate local home network  broadcast (and with cheap consumer network equipment) multicast traffic from reaching the streamer. The streamer NIC has to inspect such traffic to see whether to ignore or not. But clearly in doing so you are reducing usability and flexibility. 

 

 

Thanks Simon,

I see so an internal switch essentially, I couldn't think of the correct word to describe the two Melco ethernet connections when working together, thanks.

I will try this and place a router inline of the direct connection and see if control point access can be gained.

But if using a web based control point (such as NAIMs app) then I would need to get net access into that new in-line router thus bringing all that web traffic back into the equation, is that right?

What control point would work via hard ethernet only with no web traffic coming into play, or do you use the WiFi router own signal to control the library thus avoiding having net access to drive it, it is juts a network I need I believe not full web access on top?

Will test.

I have the Melco  'Player' Ethernet port connected to my Superuniti and the LAN port connected to my router. This enables me to manage the Superuniti through my iPhone App, download High Res music straight to the Meloc, rip CDs from my PC to the Melco and play Melco library music on other devices. If you can use some flat Ethernet cable |(which can go under carpets etc) to connect to your router/modem that would be best. If not then you can get a WiFi switch which has got an Ethernet port. I don't see any need to 'break' the direct player connection.

Hi Dan43, no a router will probably not work if you put between Melco and streamer in direct connection mode, but a switch should. These components do quite different things. A switch essentially works with Ethernet frames all within the same network(s). A router works with network transport packets and joins networks together by routing between them... the Melco almost certainly in direct mode will only work within a single network..

An example access point of a switch could be a basic Apple Airport Express (in bridge mode). What I don't know is how big the Melco direct mode subnet is ... and how many addresses its DHCP server can have within its scope... a bit of experimentation may be required. If you can post the subnet mask that the Melco gives to the streamer in direct mode we can see how big that network can potentially be. For example a subnet of 255.255.255.0 allows 254 hosts, where as 255.255.255.248 allows 6 hosts or 255.255 255.252 allows only 2 hosts. The latter would prevent an AP from being able to be inserted.

Why do you want to use Direct Mode Dan - seems to be little (if any) gain for a lot of faff ?

It seemes thar PeterJ has clarified that the Melco can work in ditect mode, with the benefit of avoiding network complications on the music play side, while being able to control remotely. Is that not the answer to the query? Otherwise if feeding a DAC with USB input the USB could be best.

PeterJ's setup seems to be the normal setup (with LAN connected). Melco direct mode (as they call it) has the player connected to the Melco's player port and the LAN connection disconnected totally meaning all control has to be done on the player itself.

As Melco seem to have done a good job isolating the Player from the General LAN traffic, i'm not sure what you would gain by doing this hence my question to Dan. 

james n posted:

Why do you want to use Direct Mode Dan - seems to be little (if any) gain for a lot of faff ?

Agree James it is a hell of a faff but for me Direct Mode has such a low noise floor as to make enough of a difference to put up with the extra leg work, when I first played in Direct Mode it was quite a difference for my set up.

In Network Mode all is absolutely fine, it is that Direct Mode (and loss of a control point) that is where I am at the moment.

Will be testing tomorrow to see what I can do. 

Simon thank you for the explanation making lots of sense as always, cheers.

Thanks Dan - interesting. Alan at Melco may be able to advise whether what Simon suggests would work (although adding anything on the 'clean' side of the player may remove all the gains you've found with direct mode).

I'll be interested in your findings 

Dan, can you confirm what the Melco gives back from its DHCP server in direct mode.. specifically the subnet mask? You could plug in a PC or Mac instead of a streamer temporarily just to see these values...

S