NAC-N-272 vs ND5-XS + NAC 202/HICAP/NAPSC

prutser posted:

Hello,

The titel already reveals my question.  I am currently using my Qute into my NAC202 (with hicap&napsc) /NAP200 combination. I am selling my Qute, and looking for a replacement streamer. The NDX is too expensive, and my choice would be the ND5-XS.

But now we have also the 272, which then could replace all  these boxes. Would i make a step back?

I like reducing the amount of boxes, but that is not too much of an issue. 

Anybody an idea?

Regards, Ronald

 

 

 

Always worth looking ahead a bit - there's nothing remotely wrong with either of your suggestions, but their "logical" end points are as follows:

1. The 272 is highly regarded by forum folk in combination with Nap 250DR and XPSDR. Three boxes and a big grin.

2. The ND5XS can be used with an outboard Dac (see a current thread on this very point) or an external PSU (the XP5 XS) and then may be upgraded to NDX. Your very fine 202/200/HC/Napsc combination allows almost endless upgrading piece by piece but you would only reduce the amp box count - from 4 to 3 - when you get to 252/SC/250 and wave farewell (in my case joyfully) to the Napsc. So, compared with option 1, more than three boxes and a (potentially bigger) big grin.

I went down the latter route, often buying used and selling my pieces off on the way to defray some of the cost.

This is a situation where you need to try the options for yourself. If using a 202/200 I certainly would not get an ND5, but would find a used NDX, which is its natural partner. I personally chose a 272 because I wanted fewer boxes and am not interested in upgrading. But if you want greater flexibility and expect to move up through the source and amplifier hierarchy, the multi box setup is probably the better way to go. 

I had my doubts as well, if the ND5 would be a best match for the 202/200. After this upcoming purchase i do not intend to upgrade more (that is the intention though) The possibilities with naim are endless, and there is always a way to upgrade in some way. Not really sure if that is good, if you have the "intention" not to upgrade ;-)

So it starts looking more going towards the 272, which allows me to get rid of the 202, and feed my stageline with the hicap. 2 boxes less.

The headphone amp is also very nice benefit.

Cheers

Hungryhalibut posted:

...If using a 202/200 I certainly would not get an ND5, but would find a used NDX, which is its natural partner....

I agree that the NDX is an improvement on the ND5 XS, but my recent experience of the ND5 XS in 282/250 and 252/250 setups was that it worked very well (better with a separate PSU and better still with an outboard DAC, as to which see another current thread).

I agree with HH that it's worth looking for a used NDX to see if it might just be in reach.

The streamer & DAC sections of the 272 are in between the ND5 XS and the NDX.  The pre-amp of the 272 is between the 202 and the 282.  In my opinion the 272 will outperform an ND5 XS + 202.  The advantage will be even greater if you add an XPS DR to the 272, then the 272 will have the advantage no matter what PSUs you use on the ND5 and the 202.

Again in my opinion, a 272 will trounce a UQ + 202 with HiCap & NAPSC.

IF your end game is a 282 or 252 (+ appropriate power supply), then I believe saving for an NDX would be the right way to go, otherwise I'd go with the 272.

prutser posted:

I had my doubts as well, if the ND5 would be a best match for the 202/200. After this upcoming purchase i do not intend to upgrade more (that is the intention though) The possibilities with naim are endless, and there is always a way to upgrade in some way. Not really sure if that is good, if you have the "intention" not to upgrade ;-)

So it starts looking more going towards the 272, which allows me to get rid of the 202, and feed my stageline with the hicap. 2 boxes less.

The headphone amp is also very nice benefit.

Cheers

Sorry Ronald - I posted without seeing your reply.

The 272 route is tried and tested - enjoy the journey and let us know what you end up doing!

Huge posted:

The streamer & DAC sections of the 272 are in between the ND5 XS and the NDX.  The pre-amp of the 272 is between the 202 and the 282.  In my opinion the 272 will outperform an ND5 XS + 202.  The advantage will be even greater if you add an XPS DR to the 272, then the 272 will have the advantage no matter what PSUs you use on the ND5 and the 202.

Again in my opinion, a 272 will trounce a UQ + 202 with HiCap & NAPSC.

IF your end game is a 282 or 252 (+ appropriate power supply), then I believe saving for an NDX would be the right way to go, otherwise I'd go with the 272.

Well, that is a very convincing statement, which confirms my own thoughts going for the 272

prutser posted:

Huge posted:

The streamer & DAC sections of the 272 are in between the ND5 XS and the NDX.  The pre-amp of the 272 is between the 202 and the 282.  In my opinion the 272 will outperform an ND5 XS + 202.  The advantage will be even greater if you add an XPS DR to the 272, then the 272 will have the advantage no matter what PSUs you use on the ND5 and the 202.

Again in my opinion, a 272 will trounce a UQ + 202 with HiCap & NAPSC.

IF your end game is a 282 or 252 (+ appropriate power supply), then I believe saving for an NDX would be the right way to go, otherwise I'd go with the 272.

Well, that is a very convincing statement, which confirms my own thoughts going for the 272

my endgame was about 2 years ago.... I think the 272 will be the end... I really hope

nickpeacock posted:

prutser posted:

I had my doubts as well, if the ND5 would be a best match for the 202/200. After this upcoming purchase i do not intend to upgrade more (that is the intention though) The possibilities with naim are endless, and there is always a way to upgrade in some way. Not really sure if that is good, if you have the "intention" not to upgrade ;-)

So it starts looking more going towards the 272, which allows me to get rid of the 202, and feed my stageline with the hicap. 2 boxes less.

The headphone amp is also very nice benefit.

Cheers

Sorry Ronald - I posted without seeing your reply.

The 272 route is tried and tested - enjoy the journey and let us know what you end up doing!

I will certainly do so. Many thanks 

I must declare an interest here: I now own a 272, having upgraded from an ND5 XS (and posed a thread on my comparison between the two).
I also have a Cuddly Toy PSU for it.

As an ex 202+Nd5 owner and as a new owner of 272 i will definetly not regretting my decision

272 is value for money and you can always upgrade piece by piece for a end game  

- 250/300DR

- rack

- power lines

- xps/555

- SL speaker cables

- network cabling/switch with İfi PS

- SL xlr/din ( or try witchhat)

- melco or dedicated hifi NAS ( or do not )

İt is a fun journey with a very good sound that i am very happy with it! 

ANd wait for 327

I am surprised no one has mentionned nDAC on this thread yet. To address the OP I would also suggest to consider ND5/nDAC or ND5/Hugo, two strong challengers of NDX and not really tailing NDX/nDAC or NDX/Hugo either. nDAC or even Hugo will eventually bring ND5 or NDX to a different league for still a limited price in particular on the S/H market.  

Chag -

As other variations around the ND5XS have been mentioned, my path may be of interest: I started with ND5XS, then added XP5XS, with minor improvement, and then swapped XP5XS for a Hugo as external DAC, with significant improvement.

Meanwhile my NAS was noisy and I was considering options, when I tried a headless Mac Mini as a NAS, which improved on my original NAS (virtually silent, and no longer any occasional lock-ups of the ND5XS or prolonged wait to find the files on startup). That is an expensive approach to a pure NAS, however It opened the door to other renderer options, and I trialled Audirvana, the package replacing the ND5XS front end, and ended up with that plus a USB/SPDIF isolator/converter (Gustard U12) between MM/Audirvana and Hugo, with further improvement. The end point there was less cost than my original NAS + ND5XS + XP5XS, better sounding, more stable, and no noise from the NAS: I wish I had that information before I started, as it would have saved money overall.

there are other simpler approaches than Mac Mini/Audirvana / isolator (isolator needed between a computer and Hugo as latter is susceptible to RF noise from the computer internals), some similar in cost and some more expensive: Melco N1A (in brief comparison there was no obvious difference to me compared to my source), Innuos ZEnith, and possibly Uniti Core, though the latter's sound quality used as a renderer is as yet unclear. All of these have the advantage of not streaming music files across a network. And as has been suggested a Naim DAC is an option if you prefer the sound to Hugo.

Forgot to add: if you have no analogue sources and a remote volume control isn't important to you, Hugo can be used direct into a power amp, thus dispensing with a preamp. I found it worked well in my system that way. Of course Hugo TT is better still, improving a little further on Hugo, and with a remote control, but higher cost.

IB,I wonder if anyone has tried,say a 272 as a source,digital out to the Hugo,or TT,then directly into the amp...or would that be just insane?I originally used the 272 alone,using its digital out,directly into my Dynaudio xd 600's digital in,and I could of lived with that forever,it was that good,but my 600's were bought for home theatre,I just was experimenting.The xd 600's work best with a digital signal,as opposed to the Atc SCM 40a's which use an analog signal I believe...many ways to skin a cat.

Innocent Bystander posted:

As other variations around the ND5XS have been mentioned, my path may be of interest: I started with ND5XS, then added XP5XS, with minor improvement, and then swapped XP5XS for a Hugo as external DAC, with significant improvement.

Meanwhile my NAS was noisy and I was considering options, when I tried a headless Mac Mini as a NAS, which improved on my original NAS (virtually silent, and no longer any occasional lock-ups of the ND5XS or prolonged wait to find the files on startup). That is an expensive approach to a pure NAS, however It opened the door to other renderer options, and I trialled Audirvana, the package replacing the ND5XS front end, and ended up with that plus a USB/SPDIF isolator/converter (Gustard U12) between MM/Audirvana and Hugo, with further improvement. The end point there was less cost than my original NAS + ND5XS + XP5XS, better sounding, more stable, and no noise from the NAS: I wish I had that information before I started, as it would have saved money overall.

there are other simpler approaches than Mac Mini/Audirvana / isolator (isolator needed between a computer and Hugo as latter is susceptible to RF noise from the computer internals), some similar in cost and some more expensive: Melco N1A (in brief comparison there was no obvious difference to me compared to my source), Innuos ZEnith, and possibly Uniti Core, though the latter's sound quality used as a renderer is as yet unclear. All of these have the advantage of not streaming music files across a network. And as has been suggested a Naim DAC is an option if you prefer the sound to Hugo.

This is a very interesting option! Although the one box (2boxes including amp) solution will likely be the outcome of my initial question, the MAC(mini) DAC approach is relatively easy, and likely with good SQ results, or better. 

Innocent Bystander posted:

As other variations around the ND5XS have been mentioned, my path may be of interest: I started with ND5XS, then added XP5XS, with minor improvement, and then swapped XP5XS for a Hugo as external DAC, with significant improvement.

Meanwhile my NAS was noisy and I was considering options, when I tried a headless Mac Mini as a NAS, which improved on my original NAS (virtually silent, and no longer any occasional lock-ups of the ND5XS or prolonged wait to find the files on startup). That is an expensive approach to a pure NAS, however It opened the door to other renderer options, and I trialled Audirvana, the package replacing the ND5XS front end, and ended up with that plus a USB/SPDIF isolator/converter (Gustard U12) between MM/Audirvana and Hugo, with further improvement. The end point there was less cost than my original NAS + ND5XS + XP5XS, better sounding, more stable, and no noise from the NAS: I wish I had that information before I started, as it would have saved money overall.

there are other simpler approaches than Mac Mini/Audirvana / isolator (isolator needed between a computer and Hugo as latter is susceptible to RF noise from the computer internals), some similar in cost and some more expensive: Melco N1A (in brief comparison there was no obvious difference to me compared to my source), Innuos ZEnith, and possibly Uniti Core, though the latter's sound quality used as a renderer is as yet unclear. All of these have the advantage of not streaming music files across a network. And as has been suggested a Naim DAC is an option if you prefer the sound to Hugo.

You use the HUGO or the HUGO TT ?

Having had or continue to own many of the components mentioned, I would say ndac plus psu or Hugo is a significant potential step in source resolution from the 272 but you will need the NAC to take advantage, and I would say using a 202/HiCapDR, enjoyable as it is is not really suited to the higher resolutions of the NDAC, Hugo and NDS. Therefore the 272 makes sense but ultimately takes you more of a dead end than some of the other options.. this may or may not be important for you.

My experience of Naim, especially as you climb the SQ ladder, is that the limiting/enabling capability of your system is centred around the NAC... so if pursuing more insightful and potentially lifelike performances is an important part of your audio/musical enjoyment I would say keep the NAC separate from your various sources.. if convienience and relatively compromised, but still highly  performant audio is more relevant for you, then I think the integrateds and hybrids such as the 272 make great solutions.

No quarter posted:

IB,I wonder if anyone has tried,say a 272 as a source,digital out to the Hugo,or TT,then directly into the amp...or would that be just insane?I originally used the 272 alone,using its digital out,directly into my Dynaudio xd 600's digital in,and I could of lived with that forever,it was that good,but my 600's were bought for home theatre,I just was experimenting.The xd 600's work best with a digital signal,as opposed to the Atc SCM 40a's which use an analog signal I believe...many ways to skin a cat.

I am not certain, and an N272 owner would be best placed to answer definitively, but I seem to recall someone suggesting this before, inserting an external DAC (whether Hugo or nDAC etc) in place of the N272's DAC, feeding back into the preamp part, and IIRC it wouldn't work because you can't select both the renderer part as a source and an analogue input to take the DAC's output. 

You can of course upgrade the N272 by using an external renderer and DAC (whether combined in the same box as a streamer, or one of the other solutions), feeding into an analogue input of the 272, or take the 272's digital output into a DAC capable of feeding the power amp directly and dispense with all but the renderer part of the 272, though that would seem a high level of redundancy

prutser posted: You use the Hugo or TT?

Having happily used the Hugo for nearly 3 years, a recent inheritance gave me some funds I decided to use as a lasting momento, for which the speakers I chose left some over, and after auditioning TT and also Dave, I went for Dave as it just wowed me from the start, even in the presence of Hugo and TT.

N.B, if no analogue sources, one of the store/renderer solutions + TT direct into power amp is only 3 boxes,  two of them relatively small.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Having had or continue to own many of the components mentioned, I would say ndac plus psu or Hugo is a significant potential step in source resolution from the 272 but you will need the NAC to take advantage, and I would say using a 202/HiCapDR, enjoyable as it is is not really suited to the higher resolutions of the NDAC, Hugo and NDS. Therefore the 272 makes sense but ultimately takes you more of a dead end than some of the other options.. this may or may not be important for you.

My experience of Naim, especially as you climb the SQ ladder, is that the limiting/enabling capability of your system is centred around the NAC... so if pursuing more insightful and potentially lifelike performances is an important part of your audio/musical enjoyment I would say keep the NAC separate from your various sources.. if convienience and relatively compromised, but still highly  performant audio is more relevant for you, then I think the integrateds and hybrids such as the 272 make great solutions.

so in other words, you think the NDAC is an overkill for my NAC 202. This dead end you mention, might not be a bad idea after all. I have been asked a few times now, if I'm finished buying hifi stuff. :-)

prutser posted:

This dead end you mention, might not be a bad idea after all. I have been asked a few times now, if I'm finished buying hifi stuff. :-)

The concept of 'finished buying' is an interesting one! I had reached that in the early 1990s, though a chance spotting of a the next model up of my amp at a very good price resulted in an impromptu change. Then my  CD player failed and I had to research, audition and replace it, and 10 years later that CD player failed, which is when I switched to streaming, starting off thinking that it was no different in practice from replacing the CD player with another, but the learning that then came resulted in several changes over a year or two. Then I was done - but an outcome of an unfortunate event prompted a significant change while keeping the original character I liked but with overall improved sound, and.is now a permanent momento of the person who induced in me a love of music every time I walk into the room and see the speakers, and every time I turn the music on. I am done now ...until something fails, which I hope will not be for many years.

I think "finished buying" is a very attractive prospect, but of course breakdowns and other events can intervene and force another purchase. However Naim build quality and recapping services can significantly extend the life of the components, as witnessed by the not infrequent sightings on this thread of CB units.

Hungryhalibut posted:

This is a situation where you need to try the options for yourself. If using a 202/200 I certainly would not get an ND5, but would find a used NDX, which is its natural partner. I personally chose a 272 because I wanted fewer boxes and am not interested in upgrading. But if you want greater flexibility and expect to move up through the source and amplifier hierarchy, the multi box setup is probably the better way to go. 

I mostly agree with HH, but when I was in the position of auditioning ND5/202/200 vs 272/200 it was, at least to me, on a very similar level in terms of sound reproduction with the pre/pro being a bit more refined. With the addition of a HC and NAPSC I could imagine that the gap widens even more. Then a NDX instead of the ND5 was a leap forward for my ears where I found the 272/200 to be much less refined. Even though a ND5 is not the natural partner for the 202 I think it actually worked very well and to me on par with the 272 streamer section.

However, and this is where I fully agree on with HH, the main decision driver will be the system's flexibility, potential upgrade path and box count. I have never heard a 272/XPSDR/250DR but the community gives a lot of kudos to this combo. The road with the 272 is the one that lets you see the light at the end of the upgrade tunnel much earlier than the "separates" route.

Just my2cents,
M

prutser posted:

so in other words, you think the NDAC is an overkill for my NAC 202. This dead end you mention, might not be a bad idea after all. I have been asked a few times now, if I'm finished buying hifi stuff. :-)

 

yeah - other than if you get the NDAC you can later the upgrade the NAC and get more goodness - but yes an alternative is go for that package solution such as the 272 or 172 and its more take it or leave it...