FIFA red poppy ban?

Very slightly 'off-red' poppies on very dark grey armbands should keep everyone happy. What next from FIFA, no fans allowed to throw celery at Dean Court? I'm showing my age.

I think FIFA's position on this is extraordinary.  I really can't see poppies as a political symbol unless, perhaps, they are seen as anti-facist, given so many lives sacrificed fighting against facism.   And you'd think, with FIFA's track-record of corruption etc the 'new administration' would be falling over themselves to show how reasonable they are.  It's really hard to see what FIFA officials think they are going to achieve by this ruling. Who is going to say 'well done'? 

MDS posted:

Who is going to say 'well done'? 

Sepp Blatter? But he's probably a) being sarcastic and b) more interested in what happened to his Nobel Prize nomination.

I think it's the correct decision, if you accept FIFA rule 57.1, which apparently states:

“on all Playing Equipment items [which include jerseys] used on, or brought into (permanently or temporarily), the Pitch Area, for all Matches, any form of advertising… of political, religious, commercial, personal statements, images and/or other announcements, is strictly prohibited”

I think the rule makes sense. No matter how laudable the remembrance of those who lost their lives in WW2 is, and it is!, it is still a political statement of some sort. If you make an exception in this case, there would need to be other exceptions as well, other people or groups of people or countries would bring forward their possibly valid cases. Where does it stop?

It's unlikely to be a popular point of view here but there you go...

An interesting question is why the game was scheduled for that day at all? The conflict could have been easily avoided. Or could it not?

MDS posted:

I think FIFA's position on this is extraordinary.

I'm not so sure, Mike. I can't really give examples but I reckon there'll be a sizeable proportion of other countries saying, 'there the Brits go again, looking for special dispensation when it suits them.'

C.

MDS posted:

 Who is going to say 'well done'? 

Me.

 The FA doesn’t have the right to tell anybody to wear a poppy. I think the wearing of a poppy is a personal choice.

 Players that would rather not wear one would be under immense pressure to do so. Just imagine the headlines in the papers if a player didn’t wear one.

 I think making them wear red noses would be more appropriate.

I don't think it helps that they have applied it inconsistently in the past.  It would appear that the FA will come out of this with some credit, which is a surprise in itself.  You would have thought that FIFA would be more concerned with mending their reputation and brand than further damaging it.  I can't imagine that there will be many people who would have been offended by the armbands with poppies on that have been used in the past.

Fatcat - I agree that players shouldn't be made to wear poppies but I can't believe that FIFA's motivation is to protect players from the moral pressure to do so.  I'm still struggling to see the poppy as a political statement.

dayjay posted:

I don't think it helps that they have applied it inconsistently in the past.  It would appear that the FA will come out of this with some credit, which is a surprise in itself.  You would have thought that FIFA would be more concerned with mending their reputation and brand than further damaging it.  I can't imagine that there will be many people who would have been offended by the armbands with poppies on that have been used in the past.

David - maybe that's the problem: the FA didn't put enough cash in the brown envelope when they asked FIFA for permission  

Christopher_M posted:

MDS posted:

I think FIFA's position on this is extraordinary.

I'm not so sure, Mike. I can't really give examples but I reckon there'll be a sizeable proportion of other countries saying, 'there the Brits go again, looking for special dispensation when it suits them.'

C.

And a lot of Brits saying here we go again another bureaucratic, corrupt, badly run  organisation trying to impose daft rules that serve to purpose

Could not the England, Scotland and Wales teams quickly run up some new poppy coloured '3rd strip' kits? I'm sure red, black and green could be used creatively for the three nations. That would make the point I think and be within rules?

dayjay posted:

I can't imagine that there will be many people who would have been offended by the armbands with poppies on that have been used in the past.

Hopefully not but what about other countries wanting to remember their dead and I am not talking about Germany. Russia could claim the same right, they also fought Hitler, yet millions died under the Stalin regime. Not a popular statement in Russia I'm sure but a historical fact. You could come up with dozens more examples.

MDS posted:

Fatcat - I agree that players shouldn't be made to wear poppies but I can't believe that FIFA's motivation is to protect players from the moral pressure to do so.  I'm still struggling to see the poppy as a political statement.

Exactly - having the choice to wear or not is the correct approach - the FIFA's view of outright banning the poppy emblem and removing that choice is in itself a political action, motivation or statement and should be challenged  in the free world - really smells of hypocrisy to me. Politics doesn't have to come from politicians ...... and in this world there are increasingly too many petty regulations,  rulings and bans - we should let people be human and express their personal choices - whether footballers,  bankers or nurses.

totemphile posted:

I think it's the correct decision, if you accept FIFA rule 57.1, which apparently states:

“on all Playing Equipment items [which include jerseys] used on, or brought into (permanently or temporarily), the Pitch Area, for all Matches, any form of advertising… of political, religious, commercial, personal statements, images and/or other announcements, is strictly prohibited”

And yet every World Cup is a huge ad-fest saturating the events and coverage with commercial statements and frankly simply wanting to host a World Cup is in itself a political and commercial statement.

totemphile posted:

dayjay posted:

I can't imagine that there will be many people who would have been offended by the armbands with poppies on that have been used in the past.

Hopefully not but what about other countries wanting to remember their dead and I am not talking about Germany. Russia could claim the same right, they also fought Hitler, yet millions died under the Stalin regime. Not a popular statement in Russia I'm sure but a historical fact. You could come up with dozens more examples.

 

totemphile - are you suggesting that Russia would object to the England and Scotland players wearing poppies? I thought Russia still honoured those merchant and naval seaman who lost their lives on the dangerous convoys to supply Russia during WW2.  

JamieWednesday posted:

totemphile posted:

I think it's the correct decision, if you accept FIFA rule 57.1, which apparently states:

“on all Playing Equipment items [which include jerseys] used on, or brought into (permanently or temporarily), the Pitch Area, for all Matches, any form of advertising… of political, religious, commercial, personal statements, images and/or other announcements, is strictly prohibited”

And yet every World Cup is a huge ad-fest saturating the events and coverage with commercial statements and frankly simply wanting to host a World Cup is in itself a political and commercial statement.

True

JamieWednesday posted:

Could not the England, Scotland and Wales teams quickly run up some new poppy coloured '3rd strip' kits? I'm sure red, black and green could be used creatively for the three nations. That would make the point I think and be within rules?

Like that idea, Jamie. Replica shirts would probably sell well too, especially if part of the cost went to RBL etc.  

MDS posted:

totemphile posted:

dayjay posted:

I can't imagine that there will be many people who would have been offended by the armbands with poppies on that have been used in the past.

Hopefully not but what about other countries wanting to remember their dead and I am not talking about Germany. Russia could claim the same right, they also fought Hitler, yet millions died under the Stalin regime. Not a popular statement in Russia I'm sure but a historical fact. You could come up with dozens more examples.

 

totemphile - are you suggesting that Russia would object to the England and Scotland players wearing poppies? I thought Russia still honoured those merchant and naval seaman who lost their lives on the dangerous convoys to supply Russia during WW2.  

No, I am not. I am suggesting that I would object to Russia remembering their dead in a football game. Or the Americans doing the same, they nuked Hiroshima and Nagasaki, a terrible act. Yet many Russians and Americans may feel the should have the right to do so.

Btw. just to be clear, I am not objecting to English players wearing a red poppy. I actually think it would be ok. I am just saying the rule 57.1 makes sense and if you accept that then the red poppy ban makes sense.

totemphile posted:

 Or the Americans doing the same, they nuked Hiroshima and Nagasaki, a terrible act.

 

Do you think the Japanese would get away with wearing mushroom cloud emblazoned shirts.  

totemphile posted:

MDS posted:

totemphile posted:

dayjay posted:

I can't imagine that there will be many people who would have been offended by the armbands with poppies on that have been used in the past.

Hopefully not but what about other countries wanting to remember their dead and I am not talking about Germany. Russia could claim the same right, they also fought Hitler, yet millions died under the Stalin regime. Not a popular statement in Russia I'm sure but a historical fact. You could come up with dozens more examples.

 

totemphile - are you suggesting that Russia would object to the England and Scotland players wearing poppies? I thought Russia still honoured those merchant and naval seaman who lost their lives on the dangerous convoys to supply Russia during WW2.  

No, I am not. I am suggesting that I would object to Russia remembering their dead in a football game. Or the Americans doing the same, they nuked Hiroshima and Nagasaki, a terrible act. Yet many Russians and Americans may feel the should have the right to do so.

 

Frankly I think that anything that helps us to remember people lost, from any nation, in any war, is a good thing and something that may help to focus people's minds in these dangerous times.  I would have no objection to Russia or America remembering those who died in past wars in such a way. 

fatcat posted:

 The FA doesn’t have the right to tell anybody to wear a poppy. I think the wearing of a poppy is a personal choice.

Players that would rather not wear one would be under immense pressure to do so. Just imagine the headlines in the papers if a player didn’t wear one.

A very good point.

dayjay posted:

totemphile posted:

MDS posted:

totemphile posted:

dayjay posted:

I can't imagine that there will be many people who would have been offended by the armbands with poppies on that have been used in the past.

Hopefully not but what about other countries wanting to remember their dead and I am not talking about Germany. Russia could claim the same right, they also fought Hitler, yet millions died under the Stalin regime. Not a popular statement in Russia I'm sure but a historical fact. You could come up with dozens more examples.

 

totemphile - are you suggesting that Russia would object to the England and Scotland players wearing poppies? I thought Russia still honoured those merchant and naval seaman who lost their lives on the dangerous convoys to supply Russia during WW2.  

No, I am not. I am suggesting that I would object to Russia remembering their dead in a football game. Or the Americans doing the same, they nuked Hiroshima and Nagasaki, a terrible act. Yet many Russians and Americans may feel the should have the right to do so.

 

Frankly I think that anything that helps us to remember people lost, from any nation, in any war, is a good thing and something that may help to focus people's minds in these dangerous times.  I would have no objection to Russia or America remembering those who died in past wars in such a way. 

What about American lives lost in Vietnam? Or Russia remembering their losses in the Chechen Wars? Would that be ok?

IMHO it's best to keep it out of sport all together. It's a can of worms.

totemphile posted:

dayjay posted:

totemphile posted:

MDS posted:

totemphile posted:

dayjay posted:

I can't imagine that there will be many people who would have been offended by the armbands with poppies on that have been used in the past.

Hopefully not but what about other countries wanting to remember their dead and I am not talking about Germany. Russia could claim the same right, they also fought Hitler, yet millions died under the Stalin regime. Not a popular statement in Russia I'm sure but a historical fact. You could come up with dozens more examples.

 

totemphile - are you suggesting that Russia would object to the England and Scotland players wearing poppies? I thought Russia still honoured those merchant and naval seaman who lost their lives on the dangerous convoys to supply Russia during WW2.  

No, I am not. I am suggesting that I would object to Russia remembering their dead in a football game. Or the Americans doing the same, they nuked Hiroshima and Nagasaki, a terrible act. Yet many Russians and Americans may feel the should have the right to do so.

 

Frankly I think that anything that helps us to remember people lost, from any nation, in any war, is a good thing and something that may help to focus people's minds in these dangerous times.  I would have no objection to Russia or America remembering those who died in past wars in such a way. 

What about American lives lost in Vietnam? Or Russia remembering their losses in the Chechen Wars? Would that be ok?

IMHO it's best to keep it out of sport all together. It's a can of worms.

 

And if FIFA agree with that then they should have consistently stuck to that line, but instead they have allowed similar instances to happen in the past which undermines their integrity and implies that a particular solution is acceptable. 

I think the important thing here is (© any politician) - that, where there are rules, specially privileged groups should immediately point out why they are not subject to them.

Conversely, the wearing of poppies should be shifted from a voluntary, if slightly ostentatious, badge of support to a civil duty - with harsh penalties for those who demur. With NO exceptions.

The commemorated didn't fight against fascism for the rights of some to resist 'micro-fascisms'.

How long is a football match? Will a nation forget the sacrifice for 90 minutes? What is the required continuous period during which compliant citizens must wear poppies?

I dunno.