Brexit is off ?

I hope so Simon but Mr Corbyn's recent speech was just depressing in that he warned about this being a wake up call and politicians not listening to the public and then attempted to link his same old 70s politics as the way forward.  Blind and deaf it would seem to what is happening on the ground.  Politicians will have to change their approach and culture and that's a big ask.

Yes - Corbyn is  interesting - i can't work him out... Brexit was supposed to be a wakeup call, Trump is now a wakeup call - how many wake up calls do they want - they must have been taking some pretty strong sleeping pills 

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Yes - Corbyn is  interesting - i can't work him out... Brexit was supposed to be a wakeup call, Trump is now a wakeup call - how many wake up calls do they want - they must have been taking some pretty strong sleeping pills 

It's called still being in denial together with the rest of the political elite.

"Be careful what you wish for. Who would you like to see making inroads into our European neighbours, Marie Le Pen in France? Norbert Hofer in Austria? the DPP in Denmark?  and Frauke Petry n Germany? What a fantastic place Europe would be if this Group of fine 'populist' leaders were to gain power or influence!

I hope that anyone reading the above sentence can't help but notice my sarcasm.

I am assuming that you too would not want the above people and their parties to increase their respective influences. On the other hand, I really am beginning to wonder".

I really must start by apologising to Dave Marshall and Southweststokie for the last sentence in a previous quote. It really was not directed at you, although it definitely looked as though it was. So, I hope you will accept my apology.

However, I do believe that there are more than a few people in the UKIP party (and again I stress that as far as I know you may not even be  supporters of UKIP, so this is not directed at you either) who are not so discriminating when it comes to political bed-fellows. Witness Nigel Farage and his outright support for Trump pre election, and his fawning over Trump post election.

Now some of you may think that there is nothing too sinister about this, although I would argue that associating himself with someone who has expressed overtly racist and misogynistic views (something no one can deny) is just a little questionable.

However, a couple of things have happened over the past couple of days to alarm me further.

Firstly, in an interview with the BBC yesterday, Marie Le Pen stated that her own party's position on immigration was not even a hair's breadth different from that of UKIP. In her opinion, some people liked to think of her party  as being 'the Bad Guys' of Nationalism, and UKIP 'the Good Guys' of the right wing in Europe, but there was very little difference between them.

Now, you might say that she would say this, or something along these lines in order to try to promote her party as being a legitimate contender in the French elections.

While I was at my gym today struggling to complete my session on a X-Trainer, I listened to an interview on BBC 2 with a member of the Conservative party, and a senior representative of UKIP. The member of UKIP (whose name I did not catch)  when asked about the similarities or differences between UKIP and the French National Front, stated that there were possibly some anti-Semitic sentiments and overtones in Le Pen's party that would not find their way into UKIP policy.  However, when he was specifically asked whether he would support Marie Le Pen in an election against Nicolas Sarkozy, his answer was "I really don't  know". Now that is frightening! I wonder how many people on the right wing of UKIP feel this way?

HMACK,

No worries at all. 

Although my position on Brexit was clear from my various contributions on the "sleepwalking" thread, I have expressed here the view that any right minded person will quite rightly have concerns with how negotiations will play out.

That said, my problem lies with the fact that so many of the "remainers", and elsewhere, the "Clintoneers", simply seem unable to accept the outcome of their respective polls, preferring to protest because that result was not to their liking.

For me, this branding of the "other side" as being obviously either too dim to realise what they were voting for, or worse, xenophobic, racist, or even fascist in their views, smacks itself, of fascism at it's worst, and for me, is a dangerous state of affairs.

Debate, before and after the event, is the way forward, and shutting people down in this way, as I suggested earlier, might well have contributed to the surprising outcome in both cases.

No Dave, They are protesting against the fact that a racist bigot and his cronies have been given the keys to the White House. We are protesting against racism, sexism, and the potential threat of living under fascistic rule. Many of us literally are in shock, anger, grief, etc here. I got physically ill from the news. Yes, it's important to accept the results of the election. It is tantamount to Chamberlain-ism to rollover and agree with them. Accept and agree - two entirely different things. The other side is not dim - it is bigoted. And bigotry can dim one  (esp those not holding the actual reigns of power) into not working in one's best interest. This was the great white spite vote - and as I tell my children, spite usually turns back in the end on its perpetrator. This is a great tragedy for the US and the world. 

Huge posted:

I was thinking in terms of criminal charges against individuals rather than against the campaign organisations.

dayjay posted:

They should be looking at both sides because neither was cleaner than clean.  The whole process was both flawed and poorly conducted and I doubt anyone came out of it with my great credit

I think a very few individuals did come out with some credit and their integrity intact.  One who for me stands out was Chuka Umunna.

On the principle of investigating both sides, strangely I agree with that - it's absolutely necessary as a political expedient.  The CPS and judiciary must maintain the appearance of disinterest as well as truly remaining disinterested.  An interesting consequence of a court finding that there was undue influence is that it would invalidate the result of the referendum.

(Quickly donning PPE to protect against the oncoming assault!)

Huge,

I missed this post when it came out.

I completely agree with your view that Chuka Umunna stands out in respect of credit and integrity. Such a pity that he is not in Corbyn's Shadow Cabinet, which I feel needs some boosting in this respect.

I would also add another few names to the "integrity intact" list. They are Nicola Sturgeon, Kezia Dugdale and Ruth Davidson. I include Ruth Davidson in this category, even though as a Conservative, many of her political views do not coincide with mine. However, she does come across as a very capable, passionate and highly respectable and decent human being. A lot more than I can say for many of her party colleagues in the Government Cabinet.

Scotland may not be a first (or even second or third) rate footballing nation any more, but we do have some extremely capable and passionate politicians.. 

Oh! the irony...

I'm generally Conservative leaning, so Chuka Umunna is 'on the other side' for me.  However I do believe that he would be a great asset to the Shadow Cabinet, for the reasons you give.  He could start to make the Labour party seem as though it might become electable again.

I believe that the Conservatives need a strong Labour Party and vice versa; in each case to keep in check the opposite excesses to which the more extreme elements in the respective parties would like to take the country.

Of Nicola Sturgeon on the other hand I'm not so sure.  Yes, the Brexit vote put her in an invidious position, but she did try to negotiate with the EU while specifically excluding the wider British government (also excluding NI who also voted to remain).  Without more information, I'll withhold expressing a specific opinion other than to say that a seed of doubt was sown (but that's still a lot better than my opinion on many others!).

I agree about Chuka, there are two others I admire for their passions and views, Tom Watson and Iain Duncan Smith.  Alex Salmond I had some time for, but there is something about Nicola Sturgeon that gives me the heebie-jeebies - I keep thinking she will turn in to Rumpelstiltskin  

OMG!

What's happened to this thread...     Voicing complimentary views about some people.     OK, it'll never catch on!  

Indeed, and in order to conform (at least slightly) to the spirit of recent posts, I'll refrain from mentioning the names of any politicians I do not admire. Unfortunately, there are more of them than there are of politicians I genuinely admire. Whilst there are quite a few Conservative politicians I have admired over the years, I find it difficult to identify any in the current cabinet.

Oh dear, I have gone and spoilt it.

Still, good to know that we all agree - Chuka Umunna for Prime Minister!

I see things have now become still more complicated as the Supreme Court has given permission to the Scottish and Welsh governments that they can make arguments to the court about the submission of Article 50 v the need to consult parliament. Potentially there could now two more parliaments to consult. 

MDS posted:

I see things have now become still more complicated as the Supreme Court has given permission to the Scottish and Welsh governments that they can make arguments to the court about the submission of Article 50 v the need to consult parliament. Potentially there could now two more parliaments to consult. 

Yes - looks like the Scots and the Welsh to the rescue.

At least the Scottish Parliament has a (very) clear mandate (much clearer than that for Brexit in the UK as a whole) from its electorate to fight for access to the single market at the very least.

Still it is all getting a bit messy, and no doubt will get messier still before any real decisions are made.

We are very much in a lose-lose situation, from which there is no real winning outcome. 

charlesphoto posted:

No Dave, They are protesting against the fact that a racist bigot and his cronies have been given the keys to the White House. We are protesting against racism, sexism, and the potential threat of living under fascistic rule. Many of us literally are in shock, anger, grief, etc here. I got physically ill from the news. Yes, it's important to accept the results of the election. It is tantamount to Chamberlain-ism to rollover and agree with them. Accept and agree - two entirely different things. The other side is not dim - it is bigoted. And bigotry can dim one  (esp those not holding the actual reigns of power) into not working in one's best interest. This was the great white spite vote - and as I tell my children, spite usually turns back in the end on its perpetrator. This is a great tragedy for the US and the world. 

100% agree, Charles. I have never woken in the night with such a sense of foreboding. I am not angry, I am not bitter. I am shocked, depressed and most of all scared. But not for myself, I'm an old white guy. I'll be OK. It is not me who will be directly in this hateful bigot's sights.

The idiot won't have any trouble surrounding himself with second-rate but loyal cronies. The only thing rewarded will be unthinking loyalty. Counterpoint, rationality and challenge will not be tolerated. The only glimmer of hope is that enough of the elected officials (whom he can't easily sack) are so repulsed that he effectively loses control of congress.

(B.T.W. Apparently the official excuse for electing the orange buffoon is not racism, bigotry, misogyny, hatred and selfishness; it is "economic anxiety".)

My biggest concern in regard to President Trump is that he will not be politically naive in regard to international affairs.  He can build as many walls as he wants (Canada would be happy!) as long as he does not muck up the international side (Its complicated and sensitive as it in this world and we need a wise politician to hold a positive course).  

As to Brexit issue I voted to remain and hoped for a second vote.  Now after Brexit vote I feel things are not so 'doomed' as I feared, and maybe we should make a clean break from EEU, it is tempting but then others say the the worse is yet to come in regards to economy?  I really don't know which way to turn?    

I'm not sure what you meant by the first paragraph.  Maybe something was lost in translation or on my side because of my issues with language.

My fear in regard to President Trump is that he's known to be naive in respect of international affairs and that he'll surround himself with advisers who won't risk expressing their true opinions forcefully enough, if they know those opinions are likely to get an adverse reaction from Trump.

It's also known that he has a taste for revenge against those who he feels have sleighed him; and he frequently dissociates himself from any negative consequences of his actions, blaming others instead.  Together with the impulsiveness (particularly in speech), this will not play well in international politics and is likely to further compound the issue over time.

Huge posted:

I'm not sure what you meant by the first paragraph.  Maybe something was lost in translation or on my side because of my issues with language.

My fear in regard to President Trump is that he's known to be naive in respect of international affairs and that he'll surround himself with advisers who won't risk expressing their true opinions forcefully enough, if they know those opinions are likely to get an adverse reaction from Trump.

It's also known that he has a taste for revenge against those who he feels have sleighed him; and he frequently dissociates himself from any negative consequences of his actions, blaming others instead.  Together with the impulsiveness (particularly in speech), this will not play well in international politics and is likely to further compound the issue over time.

In regard to the second paragraph above he may come across one body who may be quite forceful in their opinion or course of action to take and may arise to another Kennedy situation..

So HMG is now saying that the cost of Brexit to the UK taxpayer will be nearly £50 billion (in extra borrowing) to 2020.  Presumably since HMG is committed to Brexit, this will be a cautious estimate, in other words not a 'scare' figure which 'project fear' might have used before the referendum.  A price worth paying for taking back control, I wonder? Hmmm.   

MDS posted:

So HMG is now saying that the cost of Brexit to the UK taxpayer will be nearly £50 billion (in extra borrowing) to 2020.  Presumably since HMG is committed to Brexit, this will be a cautious estimate, in other words not a 'scare' figure which 'project fear' might have used before the referendum.  A price worth paying for taking back control, I wonder? Hmmm.   

Actually, the cost of Brexit to the UK Taxpayer is quoted as nearly £60 billion (in extra borrowing) by the BBC. Does this take into account the falling value of Sterling, I wonder?

Hardly in line with the Brexit campaign's notion of saving loads of money (where will we spend all that 'free' money?) by simply leaving.

I'm sure some will say - "well worth the cost". I for one, fail to understand their reasoning!

Madness. It's simply madness.

A slight majority of those who voted, voted to leave. The referendum isn't legally binding. HMG fighting all the way to avoid a discussion in Parliament, never mind a vote. No access to the single market unless there is free movement of labour. The economy shattered. The pound well down. Boris mouthing off left right and centre. May giving a good impression of a dictator. No plan in place - not even a skeleton plan. David Davis not knowing which way to turn when in Brussels.

It's simply madness.

Hmm.  Over 4 the next years...

Savings: £220M per week over 2 years (the 2 years after Article 50) = 220M * 52 * 2 = £23bn

Costs: £50bn over 4 years.

Net result: £27bn loss at best (c.f. £350m per week gain as promised).

Don Atkinson posted:

Madness. It's simply madness.

A slight majority of those who voted, voted to leave. The referendum isn't legally binding. HMG fighting all the way to avoid a discussion in Parliament, never mind a vote. No access to the single market unless there is free movement of labour. The economy shattered. The pound well down. Boris mouthing off left right and centre. May giving a good impression of a dictator. No plan in place - not even a skeleton plan. David Davis not knowing which way to turn when in Brussels.

It's simply madness.

You forgot to mention Farage to go to Washington as ambassador.

I chucked... apparently 'oexit' is a term that is rearing its head now over in Austria..

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

I chucked... apparently 'oexit' is a term that is rearing its head now over in Austria..

It's enough to make you sick ?

 wrtched iPad.....