Brexit is off ?

dayjay posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

 

Sorry, I was forced to watch the final of I'm a Celebrity Get Me Out of Here.  

My heartfelt condolences, David

Mike

MDS posted:

dayjay posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

 

Sorry, I was forced to watch the final of I'm a Celebrity Get Me Out of Here.  

My heartfelt condolences, David

Mike

Much appreciated Mike, I feel emotionally scarred by the experience but for some reason my son loves the programme.  The youth of today eh, not like those nice punks we used to have in our day! 

I guess if the exit polls are right the pound will be at the highest point against the Euro since just after  the June referendum, it was certainly accelerating up on Friday..

Renzi has just announced his resignation after conceeding the referendum. Dangerous things these referendums

dayjay posted:

Renzi has just announced his resignation after conceeding the referendum. Dangerous things these referendums

Politicians should follow the advice of criminal lawyers... never ask a question you don't know the answer to!

I hope that they are learning to listen more to those they represent, Eloise, so that they have the answer rather than plowing ahead complacently.  If there is anything good from all this upheaval I hope it is that the complacency has gone and is replaced with awareness

David, I hope so, but I suspect there will need to be more election outcomes. I am sure this will get dismissed in some quarters within the EU as a 'populist' fad that will blow over...by the way does anyone know what populist actually means... it's one of those words that appears to mean different things to different people... a non word..or a word  to describe non-establishment, non-elites or proletariat perhaps? 

dayjay posted:

I hope that they are learning to listen more to those they represent, Eloise, so that they have the answer rather than plowing ahead complacently.  If there is anything good from all this upheaval I hope it is that the complacency has gone and is replaced with awareness

The problem is (from my thinking) that politicians may be listening to those they represent; but they are offering solutions which do not get to the root of the problem but do get the popular vote.

They act like a doctor who faced with a patient who complains about a pain in their foot goes for amputation as the patient suggests rather than examining the patients shoe and removing the drawing pin they stepped on. 

When people complain about immigration they are not (albeit in my opinion) really complaining about immigration. They are complaining about having to wait 3 days for a doctors appointment while they see the waiting room "full of" Poles. They are complaining about lack of availability of housing for their son/daughter when they see a Slovakian move in next door to an ex council house. These are the real issues that the "working classes", who are being targeted by UKIP and the like, have.

And none of the solutions offered will do a jot to help them (again IMO); if the economy nose dives it will make it worse for them and increase the social divide. 

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

David, I hope so, but I suspect there will need to be more election outcomes. I am sure this will get dismissed in some quarters within the EU as a 'populist' fad that will blow over...by the way does anyone know what populist actually means... it's one of those words that appears to mean different things to different people... a non word..or a word  to describe non-establishment, non-elites or proletariat perhaps? 

Populist tends to be simple solutions to complicated problems which appeal to the masses in an attempt to gain further power.  At least IMO. 

And are those masses across the spectrum or focussed more on one class or social economic group?

Eloise posted:

dayjay posted:

I hope that they are learning to listen more to those they represent, Eloise, so that they have the answer rather than plowing ahead complacently.  If there is anything good from all this upheaval I hope it is that the complacency has gone and is replaced with awareness

The problem is (from my thinking) that politicians may be listening to those they represent; but they are offering solutions which do not get to the root of the problem but do get the popular vote.

They act like a doctor who faced with a patient who complains about a pain in their foot goes for amputation as the patient suggests rather than examining the patients shoe and removing the drawing pin they stepped on. 

When people complain about immigration they are not (albeit in my opinion) really complaining about immigration. They are complaining about having to wait 3 days for a doctors appointment while they see the waiting room "full of" Poles. They are complaining about lack of availability of housing for their son/daughter when they see a Slovakian move in next door to an ex council house. These are the real issues that the "working classes", who are being targeted by UKIP and the like, have.

And none of the solutions offered will do a jot to help them (again IMO); if the economy nose dives it will make it worse for them and increase the social divide. 

But if we accept your interpretation of the issues, Eloise, there is still little evidence of people listening to the true problems and offering solutions.  Brexit didn't come about because the government listened to its public and offered a simple solution to problems, it came about because a prime minister miscalculated in trying to deal with eurosceptic so in his own party.  Nor is there any evidence of people listening to these problems now and offering solutions.  Corbyn's view is to suggest going back to the 1960s is the answer, but that is the same answer he has had through his whole career, the Lid Dems are attempting their own version of the populist offer by appealing to those who disagree with Brexit and the Tories are struggling to find a way out of the EU that they never expected to have to deliver.  Who is offering a vision that accepts there are problems, and that takes into accounts the concerns about the EU that some people clearly have, and that isn't just a continuation of what we had before?  A big gap there for someone with vision and leadership to step into but I can't see it happening.

A big gap I agree, but one that I believe is a political chasm which once entered will lead only to Dante's inferno.

Unless the greater portion of the population truly understand not only the problems they face but also understand the possible solutions and the ramifications thereof, then populism is a doomed philosophy.  However when the population do gain that understanding is also the time when democracy starts to function with true effectiveness.

dayjay posted:

But if we accept your interpretation of the issues, Eloise, there is still little evidence of people listening to the true problems and offering solutions.  Brexit didn't come about because the government listened to its public and offered a simple solution to problems, it came about because a prime minister miscalculated in trying to deal with eurosceptic so in his own party.  Nor is there any evidence of people listening to these problems now and offering solutions.  Corbyn's view is to suggest going back to the 1960s is the answer, but that is the same answer he has had through his whole career, the Lid Dems are attempting their own version of the populist offer by appealing to those who disagree with Brexit and the Tories are struggling to find a way out of the EU that they never expected to have to deliver.  Who is offering a vision that accepts there are problems, and that takes into accounts the concerns about the EU that some people clearly have, and that isn't just a continuation of what we had before?  A big gap there for someone with vision and leadership to step into but I can't see it happening.

Sadly I agree with you dayjay in the most part.

David Cameron's calling of a referendum was a miscalculation to deal with euroscepticisim in his party.

The Eurosceptics however however are not interested in "the people" but have taken encouragement from general disaffection amongst a large part of the population to whip up anti-EU sentiment for their own ends.  Its politicians like Nigel Fararge and Boris Johnson who I consider the most dangerous here.  I have grave doubt that they have the improvement of society and a fairer society in mind.  I have no doubt they knew claims like the £350 million (to take a specific example) was a deception yet knew it would get the attention it required.  

But I will go further than in my first post ... I said "politicians may be listening to those they represent; but they are offering solutions which do not get to the root of the problem but do get the popular vote" ... but thinking further no I don't think they listen to those they represent at all.  They are listening to the influence of big media.  They bend their policies based on what will play well in the press.  Its always (well the last 20 years I've paid attention to politics) been that way.

The problem is that the solutions which actually benefit society as a whole, do not generally benefit individuals so will never gain the populist vote.  Many people will disagree with my assessment here ... but for the most part the Lib Dems in coalition tried to tread this path ... with only moderate power they managed to moderate much of the worst the Conservatives went on the implement immediately they had a majority; but in exchange they had to give up some of their promises which lost them the populist vote.  (Please note I don't agree with everything the Lib Dems did as part of the coalition and feel they should have approached it differently; but had they not formed any form of pact I think they would have lost as much if not more of the vote).

Don Atkinson posted:

Hmack posted:

So folks.

Psychedelic music, protest songs and good old fashioned rock, or punk and anarchy? What's your allegiance?   

.........Sir Cliff Richard and Harold Wilson............

I had hoped that my suggestion of a correlation between tastes in music and ones position in the referendum would bear fruit, but it has just confused matters even more for me.

Don - an anti-establishment rebel from the 60s and a pipe smoking card carrying member of the Kremlin (allegedly!) - just a bit too radical and hard-core for me. I'm not sure that we can remain on the same side of the debate?

and Simon - an inspirational choice of music (Chirpy Chirpy Cheep Cheep by Middle of the Road). My favourite pro-veganism protest song from my favourite group of the 70s. What could be more wishy washy 'liberal' than 'middle of the road'? How can we possibly be on opposite sides of the debate?

Huge posted:

"..........However when the population do gain that understanding is also the time when democracy starts to function with true effectiveness".

I agree, but possibly a bit of a pipe-dream.

Whilst I was travelling to my dental appointment today, I listened to a current affairs program discussing the referendum, and today's Supreme Court Appeal Case. The program's interviewers decided to venture out to ask the public whether or not they were aware of the Appeal Case, and what they thought about it. I don't know if this was by chance or not, but all 4 people they interviewed had voted to leave the EU in the referendum. None of the 4 were aware of the earlier court decision and today's appeal court session.

The most intelligent comment from any of the 4 was "we voted to leave, so we should just get on with it" (and bear in mind my position in this debate when I judge this comment to be the most intelligent).

Of the remaining  three, I will quote one of them (her reply quite accurately paraphrases the other two). Her response was - "I voted leave, but when it comes to politics or anything like that I haven't got a clue, love'.

Probably not a group that is particularly representative of the voters for BREXIT - I certainly hope not, but more than a little worrying none the less.

I suspect democracy may be fighting a losing game, and I think I might be joining Timmo1341 on the 'Cynics' bench.   

A quote from somebody from The Economist's discussion forum and that made me laugh.

"Britons (not all) chose to follow that clown called Boris. Like Americans (not all) chose to follow that other clown the Donald. Now all of them have to adjust and live accordingly. Good luck."

Hmack posted:

Huge posted:

"..........However when the population do gain that understanding is also the time when democracy starts to function with true effectiveness".

I agree, but possibly a bit of a pipe-dream.

Whilst I was travelling to my dental appointment today, I listened to a current affairs program discussing the referendum, and today's Supreme Court Appeal Case. The program's interviewers decided to venture out to ask the public whether or not they were aware of the Appeal Case, and what they thought about it. I don't know if this was by chance or not, but all 4 people they interviewed had voted to leave the EU in the referendum. None of the 4 were aware of the earlier court decision and today's appeal court session.

The most intelligent comment from any of the 4 was "we voted to leave, so we should just get on with it" (and bear in mind my position in this debate when I judge this comment to be the most intelligent).

Of the remaining  three, I will quote one of them (her reply quite accurately paraphrases the other two). Her response was - "I voted leave, but when it comes to politics or anything like that I haven't got a clue, love'.

Probably not a group that is particularly representative of the voters for BREXIT - I certainly hope not, but more than a little worrying none the less.

I suspect democracy may be fighting a losing game, and I think I might be joining Timmo1341 on the 'Cynics' bench.   

 

It's getting a wee bit crowded, but I'll happily shuffle up a bit to make room! Seriously though, I do agree, and always have done, that universal enfranchisement is worrying, but it appears to be an unavoidable consequence of our attempts at democracy. I'm not sure there is any answer, other than to continue attempting to educate and persuade (incredibly difficult not to come across as patronising isn't it?) those from whom we have heard much these past few months. When all else fails, listen to some more music!

I suggest case / lang / veirs "I Want To Be Here"

Eloise posted:

dayjay posted:

Renzi has just announced his resignation after conceeding the referendum. Dangerous things these referendums

Politicians should follow the advice of criminal lawyers... never ask a question you don't know the answer to!

I think in Cameron's case it should have been a matter of ...never ask a question if you can't cope with the answer! 

I find it deeply disturbing that many of the people interviewed by the BBC and ITV news teams are completely unaware of the purpose of the Supreme Court with respect to the case it is currently considering this week.

Are these news programmes selective in the people they interview and subsequently use in their programmes (ie is there a bias), or are these people a representative sample of the population in the chosen interview location ?

I'd say the latter.

C.

Don Atkinson posted:

Are these news programmes selective in the people they interview and subsequently use in their programmes (ie is there a bias), or are these people a representative sample of the population in the chosen interview location ?

A bias on the part of the mainstream broadcasters?

Surely not ..................... good heavens, the very idea. 

Hmack posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

Hmack posted:

So folks.

Psychedelic music, protest songs and good old fashioned rock, or punk and anarchy? What's your allegiance?   

.........Sir Cliff Richard and Harold Wilson............

I had hoped that my suggestion of a correlation between tastes in music and ones position in the referendum would bear fruit, but it has just confused matters even more for me.

Don - an anti-establishment rebel from the 60s and a pipe smoking card carrying member of the Kremlin (allegedly!) - just a bit too radical and hard-core for me. I'm not sure that we can remain on the same side of the debate?

and Simon - an inspirational choice of music (Chirpy Chirpy Cheep Cheep by Middle of the Road). My favourite pro-veganism protest song from my favourite group of the 70s. What could be more wishy washy 'liberal' than 'middle of the road'? How can we possibly be on opposite sides of the debate?

For the record I have never voted Labour, and can't imagine I ever will (sorry Jeremy, but you don't help !). However, I had a friend at University called Harold Wilson who was a decent sort of bloke, but rather burdened sharing a name with the PM of the day.

As for Sir Cliff, well my first "date" was taking Mrs D to see a film called The Young Ones and even now we are booked to go to some outdoor castle ground in June next year to listen yet again. More than my life is worth to overlook such trivial details.................

Adam Meredith posted:

Timmo1341 posted:

----- for the sake of accuracy I have to point out that:

Mair, Jo Cox's killer, was known to have links to Nazi and white supremacist groups. No evidence was produced, or adduced, linking him to the Brexit issue.

 

Is that so?

"Ms Aswat repeatedly hit Mr Mair with her handbag, said Mr Whittam, but “was forced to retreat in fear of her own life being taken”. She heard him saying: “Britain first, this is for Britain, Britain will always come first.”

Ms Major said that after Mrs Cox had been shot and stabbed, she “tried to get away from him” but was shot again. She heard the killer shout: “Make Britain independent.” "

The above qoute, was that taken from a news story or from the evidence given at trial?