Brexit is off ?

It was a flawed election by excluding the 16 & 17 year old age group, it's obvious and essential they of all people should have a say, and vote in a Referendum that will directly impact upon their future.

It was also flawed by running the election date during the Euro Football, far too many dimwitted male voters mistook the Referendum for a football team vote do you want to win UK or EU. 

The Will of the People strongly remains to stay within the EU. Far more people of the UK did not vote to Leave.

The Referendum result is what it is, only false and silly fluke result on the day caused by a very flawed electoral procedure. 

We need a re-vote 

Debs

Simon and JFRITZEN,

But the same question arises time and time again. What is BREXIT?

Is it:

- a reclamation of our National sovereignty from a Federal Europe

- an exit from the single market, and an end to freedom of movement within Europe

- an end to immigration full stop

- or a combination of all of these.

You may support one, two or more of these, but do you truly believe that you can speak for everyone who decided to vote on the 'leave' side? We know of at least one prominent leave supporter who does not support an exit from the single market, although he did vote to leave.     

There was no clear manifesto defining the nature of an exit from the EU prior to the referendum. Do you believe that those who have inherited the Government Cabinet are acting for the good of, and on behalf of the majority of the British people, or on behalf of themselves and a far right clique when they attempt to deny Parliament any say as to how the BREXIT negotiations are framed? Do you trust them? Do you think the majority of people in the UK trust them to act on their behalf in the forthcoming exit negotiations? I certainly do not. I would not trust any of the current Government cabinet as far as I could throw them. 

Farage has outed himself as a dangerous far right extremist, in light of his campaigning and unfettered support for Donald Trump in the UK elections, and the UK Gutter Press (now expanded to include at its head the Daily Mail and Daily Express and their vested interests) now feels that it is above the law of this land. The reaction to the person who brought the legal case, and the three impartial judges who deigned to vote against their personal interests, is absolutely disgusting. I don't swear, I don't like swearing, but I have had to compose myself not to do so having seen today's cover pages from these papers. How utterly disgusting and irresponsible can you get? There have already been death threats and other horrific vitriol and abuse directed towards those who headed the legal case against the Governments intended use of the 'Royal Perogative'. Talk about fanning the flames. I can't believe our so called 'Free; press have sunk so low.

By the way Simon, I totally agree with you about zero hours contracts. By and large they are used by unscrupulous employers to drive down employees rights and wages. However, I wasn't aware that they were an EU influenced practice. Maybe they were, but whether or not, this was the case, I really can't see Theresa May and some of the less well principled major employers rushing to get rid of them. 

HMack - very much agree with your sentiments about the some of the right-wing Press attacks on the three judges. Disgraceful. And if the Lord Chancellor doesn't speak up quickly to condemn the attacks and defend the judiciary's impartiality that will speak volumes. My understanding of the judgement is that it expressly stated that it in no way comments on the merits of the in/out debate: it was simply a narrow judgement on the legal process. If the Daily Mail and others want to find a villain for this it need to look at the politicians who crafted the terms and Bill supporting the referendum and who, since the result, have designed the exit path. Directing hysterical and distasteful 'press' against those whose job it is to point out legal flaws in HMG's plan is contemptible in my view.  

Yet another tactic used by the Nazis in the '30s when their controlled press attacked the judiciary for being enemies of the state.

If only we could find the fast forward button to hopefully a time when self interest and hate can be overcome. I suspect an Alien attack would be required for that to happen.

Hope the queen pays good money to the wigs... hang on, we pay the queen.  Forget Brexit .we need Royalexit.

naim_nymph posted:

The Will of the People strongly remains to stay within the EU. Far more people of the UK did not vote to Leave. 

But fewer voted to remain - so the Will of the People is determined by the majority of adults who voted.. so the Will of the People is firmly  to leave the EU - simples

BigH47 posted:

Yet another tactic used by the Nazis in the '30s when their controlled press attacked the judiciary for being enemies of the state.

If only we could find the fast forward button to hopefully a time when self interest and hate can be overcome. I suspect an Alien attack would be required for that to happen.

True - but that was the dictatorship 'government' defining that back then - these days its the editorial comment from our free press - somewhat different me thinks. if you don't agree with it - don't buy their paper..

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

BigH47 posted:

Yet another tactic used by the Nazis in the '30s when their controlled press attacked the judiciary for being enemies of the state.

If only we could find the fast forward button to hopefully a time when self interest and hate can be overcome. I suspect an Alien attack would be required for that to happen.

True - but that was the dictatorship 'government' defining that back then - these days its the editorial comment from our free press - somewhat different me thinks. if you don't agree with it - don't buy their paper..

BBC reporting that the former Attorney General, Dominic Grieve, has also made the Nazi connection "...newspaper like the Daily Mail are no different from the Voelkisher Beobachter in Nazi Germany if they run headlines of that type.".  Credit to him for speaking out so clearly.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

naim_nymph posted:

The Will of the People strongly remains to stay within the EU. Far more people of the UK did not vote to Leave. 

But fewer voted to remain - so the Will of the People is determined by the majority of adults who voted.. so the Will of the People is firmly  to leave the EU - simples

It wasn't a General Election and should never have been run on the same procedure. The referendum & vote win of a minority of 17.4m Leave voters does not demonstrate a democratic win considering the whole of the eligible electorate, and which should include 16 & 17 year old age group who were denied the right to vote.

Far more people in the UK right now want to remain in the EU so the real Will of the People is to stay in the EU.

Debs

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

naim_nymph posted:

The Will of the People strongly remains to stay within the EU. Far more people of the UK did not vote to Leave. 

But fewer voted to remain - so the Will of the People is determined by the majority of adults who voted.. so the Will of the People is firmly  to leave the EU - simples

You would think so but there will still be some who will try to argue with that.  Funnily enough if the vote had been reversed I doubt that they would

Not so sure that’s correct. Within a couple of hours of the polling stations  closing, Farage, thinking remain had won, claimed the fight to leave would go on due to the result being so close.

 What amazes me, is the arrogance of the politicians that campaigned to leave, for some bizarre reason they seem to think they have the right to decide on what terms we leave and the extent of our future relationship with the EU.

Wouldn’t it be ironic if we left the EU. Opted to remain in the single market, but paid £350 million a day and accepted open borders for the privilege to do so.

It could happen, the will of the people would have been satisfied.

naim_nymph posted:

Far more people in the UK right now want to remain in the EU so the real Will of the People is to stay in the EU.

How did you work that out then?

MDS posted:

 

BBC reporting that the former Attorney General, Dominic Grieve, has also made the Nazi connection "...newspaper like the Daily Mail are no different from the Voelkisher Beobachter in Nazi Germany if they run headlines of that type.".  Credit to him for speaking out so clearly.

Leave it out. Judges get criticised all the time by both right wingers and left wingers. It is their job to ignore popularity and politics. Whether they have got it wrong this time I am not sure because (as I said earlier) we are in uncharted constitutional territory. What is clear is that the government have screwed up however you look at it.

naim_nymph posted:

 

The Will of the People strongly remains to stay within the EU. Far more people of the UK did not vote to Leave.

 

 

 

 

 

Assuming this is true, do you know what are the primary reason behind this decision ? Being in EU comes in a package, besides "Free trade", you need to allow for immigration etc..

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

I agree we should crack on as soon as possible and embrace the world instead of relying on just  little Europe and also allows us to vote on removing EU abominations  such as zero hour contracts sooner rather than later

Are zero hours contracts really an innovation of the EU? I would have thought this was exactly the sort of abomination that we could have have outlawed without leaving the EU, despite the leavers' propaganda. I have never heard anyone argue that we cannot get rid of such contracts while in the EU. Whenever there is a public move against their exploitative nature it seems that a lot of employers rise up and say that their workers like them because they offer flexibility, and it all goes quiet again....

Clive

engjoo posted:

naim_nymph posted:

 

The Will of the People strongly remains to stay within the EU. Far more people of the UK did not vote to Leave.

 

 

 

 

 

Assuming this is true, do you know what are the primary reason behind this decision ? Being in EU comes in a package, besides "Free trade", you need to allow for immigration etc..

The inmates voted for the UK to leave the EU. not to ban the free movement within Europe.

We could leave and retain free free movement. (Dont forget free movemnet means UK citizens will be free to travel and work within the EU).

I 'liked' your post, Mike. But if the Daily Mail and other [newspapers] want to find a villain for this [they] need to look at themselves. Imo.

C.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

I agree we should crack on as soon as possible and embrace the world instead of relying on just  little Europe and also allows us to vote on removing EU abominations  such as zero hour contracts sooner rather than later

What has zero hour contracts got to do with membership of the EU? As far as I'm aware individual states make their own decision. In most EU countries zero hours contracts are restricted or heavily regulated so in this respect the U.K. Is the odd one (or two) out.

If anything membership of the EU has been instrumental in protecting workers rights.

Jonn posted:

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

I agree we should crack on as soon as possible and embrace the world instead of relying on just  little Europe and also allows us to vote on removing EU abominations  such as zero hour contracts sooner rather than later

What has zero hour contracts got to do with membership of the EU? As far as I'm aware individual states make their own decision. In most EU countries zero hours contracts are restricted or heavily regulated so in this respect the U.K. Is the odd one (or two) out.

If anything membership of the EU has been instrumental in protecting workers rights.

 

Yes, I agree, which was why I was questioning the association of zero hours contracts with the EU in the post above. It seems to me that such contracts of employment would most likely have originated in the US. Certainly, given that the Tory advocates of Brexit are mostly right wing free marketeers, any notion that a post EU UK run by them is likely to be more sympathetic to workers'  rights is a chimaera.

Clive

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

.. the referendum has appeared, for now, to disrupt if not overturn the established  class wars and divisions ... and it increasingly appears now the liberal metropolitans  vs everyone else divisions 

Can we not just be just a more academically rigourous and refer to them as Tetley Tea Folk?

C.

Chris, the link doesn't work here...

Jonn posted:

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

I agree we should crack on as soon as possible and embrace the world instead of relying on just  little Europe and also allows us to vote on removing EU abominations  such as zero hour contracts sooner rather than later

What has zero hour contracts got to do with membership of the EU? As far as I'm aware individual states make their own decision. In most EU countries zero hours contracts are restricted or heavily regulated so in this respect the U.K. Is the odd one (or two) out.

If anything membership of the EU has been instrumental in protecting workers rights.

 

Jonn, you are right.. not sure what I was thinking of when I tapped that.. zero hour contracts of various guises are adopted across many but not all  European countries whether in the EU or not. I would like to see them outlawed in the UK.

Simon, thanks, please just google 'leavers remainers brands' and click in the first thing at the top of the list.

Unrelatedly, I've just heard Lord Judge on R4, powerfully coming as close as he can to criticising Lord chancellor Liz Truss over her failure to defend the judiciary against attacks by some right wing papers. But I have enough awareness to realise that R4 is part of one of the brands on my list. Someone who watches Skynews, for instance, might just think Lord Judge is a bloke who just likes to dress up in tights and wigs for work  ;-)

C.

jfritzen posted:

Why fight the rearguard action? Wouldn't it better for all sides if the Brexit, inevitable as it is, continued as swift as possible? The sooner the UK are out the sooner they will realise the giant blunder they made and the more probable is a reunion in our lifetimes.

What would be best would be if the government accepted the sovereignty of parliament and opened the Brexit plans to scrutiny and debate.  That's what the ruling in the courts required.

Eloise posted:

jfritzen posted:

Why fight the rearguard action? Wouldn't it better for all sides if the Brexit, inevitable as it is, continued as swift as possible? The sooner the UK are out the sooner they will realise the giant blunder they made and the more probable is a reunion in our lifetimes.

What would be best would be if the government accepted the sovereignty of parliament and opened the Brexit plans to scrutiny and debate.  That's what the ruling in the courts required.

...and then we would see how horrible BREXIT is going to be and have a re-vote instead, which REMAIN would win ; )