Good Morning America

Just listening to some Canadian press. Even here many are missing the real point. They focus primarily  on the effect on Canada and on trade. As we speak, someone is calling for screening of immigrants. Claiming that "elites are out of touch". She is simply an apologist for racism.

This is bigger than that. We all need to rise above self interest and focus on what is the decent thing to do as a human being. It is self interest and bigotry, the temptation to blame others who are "not like us" for our anger that resulted in this mess that threatens us all. But before we are at risk there are vast number of people "not like us" who are already being persecuted. It is for those people we need to act, it is those we need to defend. And ahead of our own self-interest. I wonder whether people will wake up and realise it NOT all about them once the orange buffoon starts to build the massive internment camps required to round up and "process" the 5,000 to 10,000 people per week he is planning to imprison and repatriate.

Absolutely agreed with winky, sounds like something like the round-up of the Japanese citizens could happen in the US! It is no longer a some kind of crazy fiction.

Btw, I've always had some reservations about the UK Labour leader (Corbyn), but now I realize he is infinitely a better and wiser than the US President -elect.

Ongoing war (and the possibility of taking it nuclear) is a bigger threat than any of those things . That is a planetary interest. When is the USA going to stop killing innocent civilians?

The US government lies like a rug about the death totals from drones, as soldiers play "video games" in the Nevada desert. Stirring and funding insurrections all over the place, with no regard to the aftermath. Every place we stick our nose turns into a complete and total disaster...and real people suffer for it.

As of 2015, an estimated 1.4 million killed in the USA's so-called "war on terror" which is largely an excuse to do what we want in the quest for global hegemony.

http://www.ippnw.org/pdf/2015-body-count.pdf

How is 1.4 million dead (more by now), most of them completely innocent, not a problem? How is it not a war crime? How does it not bother people to support those who not only promulgate it, but threaten to make it more widespread, without ANY right under international law, let alone any sense of ethical and moral scruples?

banzai posted:

Absolutely agreed with winky, sounds like something like the round-up of the Japanese citizens could happen in the US! It is no longer a some kind of crazy fiction.

Btw, I've always had some reservations about the UK Labour leader (Corbyn), but now I realize he is infinitely a better and wiser than the US President -elect.

Now, that's debatable...? 

winkyincanada posted:

Just listening to some Canadian press. Even here many are missing the real point. They focus primarily  on the effect on Canada and on trade. As we speak, someone is calling for screening of immigrants. Claiming that "elites are out of touch". She is simply an apologist for racism.

This is bigger than that. We all need to rise above self interest and focus on what is the decent thing to do as a human being. It is self interest and bigotry, the temptation to blame others who are "not like us" for our anger that resulted in this mess that threatens us all. But before we are at risk there are vast number of people "not like us" who are already being persecuted. It is for those people we need to act, it is those we need to defend. And ahead of our own self-interest. I wonder whether people will wake up and realise it NOT all about them once the orange buffoon starts to build the massive internment camps required to round up and "process" the 5,000 to 10,000 people per week he is planning to imprison and repatriate.

Very well put!

I had thought that Trump was going to water down his pre-election rhetoric and plans, but some of his recent statements along with his choice of team so far makes me think otherwise.

And, of specific concern to those of us in the UK, Nigel Farage is posturing and positioning himself as the potential 'go-between' for talks between Trump and the UK Government. Before anyone laughs this down, I heard a member of the Conservative hierarchy today stating "Why not?" in an interview on BBC Radio. 

http://www.newstatesman.com/wo...ion-donald-j-trump-4

Another good article.

Indeed!

An excellent article that summarises perfectly the pre and post election issues and concerns in the US, and could just as easily have been written about the BREXIT referendum.

Unfortunately, your concerns and those of many in the US are not going to be diluted by Trump's selection of Stephen Bannon as his chief advisor. I think that if we had any doubt about Trump's true views and feelings, then this appointment puts them to rest - and not in a good way!

winkyincanada posted:

http://www.newstatesman.com/wo...ion-donald-j-trump-4

Another good article.

Thank you. My sentiments exactly. This was a vote for hate by everyone who ticked the box by his name. People can try and spin it all they want. I heard a woman on the radio say she voted for him because he "spoke unscripted, from the heart." WTF??? From the heart? So I'm assuming almost 50% of the voting public thinks a steel cage full of poisonous snakes is a heart??? (and I'm being unfair to innocent snakes here in this metaphor). 

You must not normalize the results of this election. Trump poked the crust - the sewer is now beginning to bubble over. He and his cronies are master manipulators, and it will get worse. Goebbels is grinning in his ashes. And I'm a white male in his early fifties living in one of the most diverse neighborhoods in one of the most liberal cities in America. My wife and children all have dual passports (US, Germany) so we can leave anytime. Most don't have those luxuries. But like millions of others, this is our home, where our jobs, friends, and schools are. 

There are small things that can be done. I know I for one will be passing on anymore cable upgrades etc etc and instead donating to the likes of Planned Parenthood - as a gift in the name of Mike Pence for starters. 

Unfortunately I am finding that the articles and posts on this forum are little better than the subjects they are complaining about.  The use of cutesy derogatory names, the aggressive rhetoric and the general tone of this is far from being any different than what is being complained about.  Some artists and commenters who I thought I might agree with have essentially undermined their own positions by adopting the exact same "methods" of presenting "their side" as the people they supposedly despise.  Not the first time I have observed this in my lifetime.  The loudest shouters for "change" often ultimately become very little different than their enemy.

Outside politics I have often seen this in unions I was a member of during my employment history.  Special areas for union management only, not the underlings they supposedly represent against the evil business management.  They never wanted change, they just wanted to be the new privileged.

It saddens me Trump will represent us.  That is the current reality in this democracy.  But others are not representing themselves any better in my opinion.  Just making noise, no solutions offered.  Sorry you can't make the decisions for a while.  Maybe by the time another chance rolls around, we, too, will have learned something.  I am not encouraged.  I doubt anyone agrees with me.  Out.

Jeff Anderson posted:

Unfortunately I am finding that the articles and posts on this forum are little better than the subjects they are complaining about.  The use of cutesy derogatory names, the aggressive rhetoric and the general tone of this is far from being any different than what is being complained about.  Some artists and commenters who I thought I might agree with have essentially undermined their own positions by adopting the exact same "methods" of presenting "their side" as the people they supposedly despise.  Not the first time I have observed this in my lifetime.  The loudest shouters for "change" often ultimately become very little different than their enemy.

Outside politics I have often seen this in unions I was a member of during my employment history.  Special areas for union management only, not the underlings they supposedly represent against the evil business management.  They never wanted change, they just wanted to be the new privileged.

It saddens me Trump will represent us.  That is the current reality in this democracy.  But others are not representing themselves any better in my opinion.  Just making noise, no solutions offered.  Sorry you can't make the decisions for a while.  Maybe by the time another chance rolls around, we, too, will have learned something.  I am not encouraged.  I doubt anyone agrees with me.  Out.

Agree with you wholeheartedly..... 

Jeff,

I have a four year old daughter and seven year old son. Am I not supposed to use strong language when thinking that in a very short time span these monsters could set in motion the final nails in the planet's coffin, or the inability for my daughter to choose how she wants to control her own body? 

Have we already forgotten the insane hate speak this man used to get to the Presidency? Do we now just pass this off as part of 'playing the election game?' Have we forgotten already that he jokingly called for the assassination of Hillary Clinton? 

Yes, the electoral college as it stands must be respected. The man it elected - not at all. He makes George Jr look like effing FDR for christ sakes! Can you imagine him comforting families after tragedies, or when their fallen soldier comes home, presenting honors and awards, or even giving a coherent State of the Union speech? 

It's been less than a week now - it's okay to be outraged - and liberal have to stop being so goddamned nice! Call a racist a racist. All of the people that will be most affected by his policies generally have nothing to do with the people who voted him in. But boy, get all of those nasty ISIS transgender Mexican rapist operatives out and we sure are going to be a safer country. But oh yeah don't worry about all of those guns in the hands of your crazy - white - neighbors or the increase in hurricanes and flooding that actually kill people and destroy jobs. Sorry Trump supporters, there's no sugar coating this - you can't have your cake and eat it too without getting diabetes. I hope you choke on your spite, because a lot of innocents will be too. 

Now back to your regularly scheduled conspiracy theories on black boxes and ethernet cables...

Charlesphoto.....serious case of over-reaction syndrome..... It's not the end of the world as we no it.........Trump has about 30 months before he starts thinking about  the next election ....he's already put his diplomatic cap on....

Thank you for proving my point.  I am not a Trump supporter, but don't let that get in the way of your selfish rage.  Out for sure this time.

wenger2015 posted:

Charlesphoto.....serious case of over-reaction syndrome..... It's not the end of the world as we no it.........Trump has about 30 months before he starts thinking about  the next election ....he's already put his diplomatic cap on....

Strange Wenger2015,

I find your reaction to Charles' post a little bit of an over-reaction, bearing in mind that few people could possibly argue that Trump has not blatantly lied, has not made overtly racist, Islamophobic and misogynistic comments in his election campaign. This is not something that we are used to seeing or hearing in politics at this level. As far as I am concerned, Trump is most certainly not a 'breath of fresh air' sweeping aside the 'elite establishment', and I for one fully understand the stance taken by Charles in his post. Now if Warren Buffet had decided to stand against the establishment, my feelings might have been a little different, but he decided to back Clinton, so I guess he is considered to be establishment himself.

Trump's appointment of Stephen Bannon as his political advisor does nothing to allay concerns, nor to suggest that Trump is donning a more diplomatic cap now that he has been elected. Bannon, if not an outright bigot and racist himself, is celebrated by the White Supremacist movements in the States.   

Yep, and everyone said, don't worry, Clinton will win easily. And now everyone is saying, don't worry, he doesn't really mean it, nothing will happen. Yep, its easy to be both outraged and blasé on internet forums. Not sure where either gets us in the end.... but already he's belittled the protestors on Twitter, and only offered up a weak 'Stop It" to racist attacks done under his name because he felt pressured to do it on national TV - which of course the alt right are calling said attacks, many of which ave been recorded, as hoaxes. It started a long time ago, and has now been legitimized. I like how black comedians etc are all like, welcome to our world liberal white people! Yes, my rage may be seen as selfish (even by myself) but where has non-rage on the left gotten us? The new people coming into office are extremely dangerous and if you don't see that then I'm sorry. 

I'm out too. I'll stick to politics elsewhere from now on. 

wenger2015 posted:

Charlesphoto.....serious case of over-reaction syndrome..... It's not the end of the world as we no it.........Trump has about 30 months before he starts thinking about  the next election ....he's already put his diplomatic cap on....

I'd truly like to believe you are right. That all along he's an articulate, well-tempered, well qualified, intelligent man who will do the right thing for the underprivileged and vulnerable in our society, while not enacting environmental policies that will likely destroy the planet. But however much I want to believe that, I can't.

winkyincanada posted:

wenger2015 posted:

Charlesphoto.....serious case of over-reaction syndrome..... It's not the end of the world as we no it.........Trump has about 30 months before he starts thinking about  the next election ....he's already put his diplomatic cap on....

I'd truly like to believe you are right. That all along he's an articulate, well-tempered, well qualified, intelligent man who will do the right thing for the underprivileged and vulnerable in our society, while not enacting environmental policies that will likely destroy the planet. But however much I want to believe that, I can't.

Seriously, I can understand your pain,  but you really need to keep thing in perspective... 

Ok, (probably) last time.

Lets look at this from a different picture. The Republicans loathe to pay for anything - unless it goes back into their pockets (and not even their constituencies per se). Note how stocks rose on private prisons and dropped on gun manufacturers the day after the election. But wasn't this all along about those small gun manufacturers losing their jobs to a Clinton win? Oh, I see now that the government isn't going to take our guns away (the biggest right wing fantastical myth of all) the demand and price has dropped. We can all shoot the shit out of each other with the 300 million guns we already have, and get locked away, free of charge, while the GOP and their cronies pocket the cash on both ends. They're saying local carry restriction laws may be wiped away as well. Oh yay! It's an Old Western Reality show ! Go America! Make them pay for their own medical bill on top of it! Why didn't us lefties get into this guns and prison business. It's so much more exciting and of the people than all that media, tech, science, and social stuff. 

Third hottest year on record. Most all scientist from around the world say global warming is a massive threat, including from the most conservative of all institutions, the Pentagon. Trump's EPA transition team is headed by a climate skeptic, who isn't even a scientist himself thereby lending a shred of credibility, just one of these think tank mouthpieces. He could end up the head of the EPA. Of course they want to dismantle the EPA - the less money they spend saving the environment the more that can be funneled to their coal and oil friends. The military industrial complex is a time honored given on both sides, but needless to say it will be given the Indy 500 green light and soon enough we'll be footing the cost of $50,000 screwdrivers again (maybe some of the more unscrupulous hifi companies can get in on that game). 

Deregulation and the bottom line is their ultimate endgame, and they'll step on whomever and whatever to get there, including their own. And they are using xenophobia and racism to cover their tracks. Of course Trump needs to play Presidential (as well as he knows how) now that he's won. It's all part of the charade. What they are shouting against the most vociferously is what they're actually most culpable of themselves. 

Look. My son is in the minority at his school. What I worry about is not him, but his little black friends, like Nate, the adopted son of two lesbians from the midwest. He's handsome and athletic and older looking than his age. He also suffers from ADD, and can be overly rambunctious at times. What happens when he gets pulled over later in life and makes the wrong move because he missed his meds, or just plain ol' gets stressed out in situations like that and forgets everything his mommies have instilled in him about interacting with law enforcement? He could every well end up dead. Maybe not due to outright racism per se, but due to the atmosphere of fear that has been created.  

At least my wife and kids have EU passports as well and by extension me. We have no intention of moving but we feel fortunate to have the elite liberal luxury of an ultimate escape plan, an 'exit.' More than you lot over on your island can now say....

I wasn't aware untill now, that 46.2% of  the American electorate  decided  not to vote........that certainly tells it's own  story.....

If we don't like Trump gilding the Washington Monument we can give him a hostile congress in the next election. Knock some Republicans out of congress, those remaining get the message. The only reason Republicans did well in the congressional elections is that we thought we were nullifying Hillary.

Clemenza posted:

If we don't like Trump gilding the Washington Monument we can give him a hostile congress in the next election. Knock some Republicans out of congress, those remaining get the message. The only reason Republicans did well in the congressional elections is that we thought we were nullifying Hillary.

Wonderful logic ... elect a man (or woman) to president ... then elect a congress which won't let them do anything!  :-)

charlesphoto posted:

Ok, (probably) last time.

Lets look at this from a different picture. The Republicans loathe to pay for anything - unless it goes back into their pockets (and not even their constituencies per se). Note how stocks rose on private prisons and dropped on gun manufacturers the day after the election. But wasn't this all along about those small gun manufacturers losing their jobs to a Clinton win? Oh, I see now that the government isn't going to take our guns away (the biggest right wing fantastical myth of all) the demand and price has dropped. We can all shoot the shit out of each other with the 300 million guns we already have, and get locked away, free of charge, while the GOP and their cronies pocket the cash on both ends. They're saying local carry restriction laws may be wiped away as well. Oh yay! It's an Old Western Reality show ! Go America! Make them pay for their own medical bill on top of it! Why didn't us lefties get into this guns and prison business. It's so much more exciting and of the people than all that media, tech, science, and social stuff. 

Third hottest year on record. Most all scientist from around the world say global warming is a massive threat, including from the most conservative of all institutions, the Pentagon. Trump's EPA transition team is headed by a climate skeptic, who isn't even a scientist himself thereby lending a shred of credibility, just one of these think tank mouthpieces. He could end up the head of the EPA. Of course they want to dismantle the EPA - the less money they spend saving the environment the more that can be funneled to their coal and oil friends. The military industrial complex is a time honored given on both sides, but needless to say it will be given the Indy 500 green light and soon enough we'll be footing the cost of $50,000 screwdrivers again (maybe some of the more unscrupulous hifi companies can get in on that game). 

Deregulation and the bottom line is their ultimate endgame, and they'll step on whomever and whatever to get there, including their own. And they are using xenophobia and racism to cover their tracks. Of course Trump needs to play Presidential (as well as he knows how) now that he's won. It's all part of the charade. What they are shouting against the most vociferously is what they're actually most culpable of themselves. 

Look. My son is in the minority at his school. What I worry about is not him, but his little black friends, like Nate, the adopted son of two lesbians from the midwest. He's handsome and athletic and older looking than his age. He also suffers from ADD, and can be overly rambunctious at times. What happens when he gets pulled over later in life and makes the wrong move because he missed his meds, or just plain ol' gets stressed out in situations like that and forgets everything his mommies have instilled in him about interacting with law enforcement? He could every well end up dead. Maybe not due to outright racism per se, but due to the atmosphere of fear that has been created.  

At least my wife and kids have EU passports as well and by extension me. We have no intention of moving but we feel fortunate to have the elite liberal luxury of an ultimate escape plan, an 'exit.' More than you lot over on your island can now say....

 

Selfish "escape plans" are not the answer. That is part of the problem. (Germany isn't big enough to absorb 50% of the global population. And btw, it isn't the panacea for the world's problems IMHO).

Stay where you are and use your energy and influence to moderate extremism around you and retain democracy.

I would like to think that the UK and USA retain some sort of special friendship, but freely admit I have doubts about being a member of an "elite" club led by Trump and Boris. But running away won't solve the inevitable problems. If there was ever a time for rational-thinking, moderate people to stand up and play key influencial roles in society, it's now.

Don Atkinson posted:

Selfish "escape plans" are not the answer. That is part of the problem. (Germany isn't big enough to absorb 50% of the global population. And btw, it isn't the panacea for the world's problems IMHO).

Stay where you are and use your energy and influence to moderate extremism around you and retain democracy.

I would like to think that the UK and USA retain some sort of special friendship, but freely admit I have doubts about being a member of an "elite" club led by Trump and Boris. But running away won't solve the inevitable problems. If there was ever a time for rational-thinking, moderate people to stand up and play key influencial roles in society, it's now.

Oh god no, of course not. I was just trying to point out that even though my family and I a have an ultimate out if need be, we are still as terrified as those who don't have anything like that. But we plan on staying put, forever hopefully. There's a always the "Im moving to Canada" hyperbole every election, but that rarely becomes reality (for one thing its just not that easy unless you already have a passport). 

Man, I wish I wasn't even writing any of this. The news just keeps getting worse and worse. Does anybody, left or right, really think this small group of privileged rich white men give a whit what anybody says?