I left Naim... and I can't work out whether I'm happy.

And as others have asked, did the change in system coincide with the house move -i .e, have you heard your old Naim system in your present room?

Midrange presentation depends heavily on the particular speakers, while in a room it tends is affected by surfaces in the room that may absorb or reflect very differently in one room compared to another (and the wider the dispersion of the speaker in the midrange the more significant may be near reflections from side wall, ceiling and floor)

Innocent Bystander posted:

Dan43 posted:

I agree with some of the comments above, although James post above is excellent, that the Devialet felt very 'new HiFi' shiny and well driven and crafted but something about the NAIM punch around the mids, as Ryder described well also, is what perhaps gives the NAIM sound that extra foot tapping boogie sense of delivery, and the imaging/sounstaging (3D imaging) for me is better overall with NAIM.

Whether or not the OP's present set-up is right for him only he can decide (and is a separate question ro whether he should 'go back' to Naim), but whether Naim (particularly amplification)  is right for an individual seems so often to depend on whether you want to boogie and have involunrarily tapping feet almost regardless of what the music is, or whether you want the sound to be what was recorded, so that if the beat of the music induces foot tapping then it does, and if not it doesn't ( similarly re getting up and boogie-ing if you are that kind of person). 

As for mids, best sound I've ever heard (and It has received universal praise ever since it was first produced) is from the ATC SM75-150 dome midrange drive unit, used on theiir larger speakers, and that or recently their own clone of it on the pro range of PMCs. Punch in the midrange of course depends on what is driving the speaker, and also fundamentally on whether the recording has punch unless something in the voicing of system components provides emphasis.

Agree entirely, S400s for me were very truthful and replayed what was sent to them honestly, revealing the source material in many areas to be quite poor, especially brickwalled CD rips.

I found that any colouring that the Devialet produced, outside any speakers relaying that colour, was for me just too bright overall, I found overall that NAIM was more honest and perhaps more down the middle in that respect.

I have just moved house and room and speakers in the new hifi room have made just as big if not more of an impact on what I am listening to than in some respects the quality of the equipment itself.

So many variables make up the final enjoyment to the individual, hence test test test (if you find a dealer happy to indulge this even better) and find your own favourite flavour. I suspect a lot of us though have bought a lot of different levels and abilities in our kit before finally settling on that 5-10 year life of that ideal system, plus add in new developments and it is a constantly moving target unfortunately.

Dan43 posted:

So many variables make up the final enjoyment to the individual, hence test test test (if you find a dealer happy to indulge this even better) and find your own favourite flavour. I suspect a lot of us though have bought a lot of different levels and abilities in our kit before finally settling on that 5-10 year life of that ideal system, plus add in new developments and it is a constantly moving target unfortunately.

Wow, is that all you expect? I'd hate to have to consider any change in that timeframe, which would suggest the system isn't ideal (unless you mean due to failure -but even that should be better).

I woud expect an ideal system to last a lifetime, literally, with no component failing in less than 10 years having to be replaced (and when something does fail it would be replaced with the same thing or current equivalent, because if the system is ideal then I would try to avoid change) - and in fact I realistically expect amps and speakers to last decades barring accidents, non-mechanical sources hopefully also, though on from the streaming angle they are relatively recent introductions and their longterm longevity isn't yet proven (ignoring firmware updates, which are not necessary if it does what I want it to do). This precludes changes that might result from other events, like moving house changing the room sufficiently to adversely affect the sound (and not readily retrievable with acceptable room treatment), or a windfall providing funds to just go and see if there is anything better, even though that has not been an intent or desire...

Surely everyone who likes Naim also must love "tinkering"?  

5 years feels like a good tinker-point to me, even if we end back where we started.

Innocent Bystander posted:

Dan43 posted:

So many variables make up the final enjoyment to the individual, hence test test test (if you find a dealer happy to indulge this even better) and find your own favourite flavour. I suspect a lot of us though have bought a lot of different levels and abilities in our kit before finally settling on that 5-10 year life of that ideal system, plus add in new developments and it is a constantly moving target unfortunately.

Wow, is that all you expect? I'd hate to have to consider any change in that timeframe, which would suggest the system isn't ideal (unless you mean due to failure -but even that should be better).

I woud expect an ideal system to last a lifetime, literally, with no component failing in less than 10 years having to be replaced (and when something does fail it would be replaced with the same thing or current equivalent, because if the system is ideal then I would try to avoid change) - and in fact I realistically expect amps and speakers to last decades barring accidents, non-mechanical sources hopefully also, though on from the streaming angle they are relatively recent introductions and their longterm longevity isn't yet proven (ignoring firmware updates, which are not necessary if it does what I want it to do). This precludes changes that might result from other events, like moving house changing the room sufficiently to adversely affect the sound (and not readily retrievable with acceptable room treatment), or a windfall providing funds to just go and see if there is anything better, even though that has not been an intent or desire...

Not particularly maybe a lifetime for some maybe with changing equipment it is a year or two, a lifetime is a long time and 40-50 years use after finding that perfect speaker is pretty awesome.

No I imagine again it is individual your mileage and others will differ, no absolutes at all just a rough assumption, if a system lasts 30 years then the value of the original purchase is just exceptional in its return and enjoyment.

Cars are expected to change every 3-5 years wonder what mileage then the ideal system, at the time you purchased it, should be expected to last?

All NDS purchasers changed their systems they must have done as it was new to market, good question then about longevity of a system and expectations of it.

Ah so you bought the Ensemble system. A very neat solution (and the Atohm speakers allow SAM to be used) but you've ended up buying a complete system rather than just changing the amp component so there are more variables at play here. 

Just a couple of things i'm sure you are aware of but just in case -

Make sure you have the latest firmware.

If just using USB (you must be if using the Melco as a source) then turn off any unused inputs (using the configurator) especially Ethernet and AIR. 

Turn off the Dynamic Power Management if you have this enabled.

Use a decent USB cable. Chord Silver Plus works really well

 James

feeling_zen posted:

If you have to ask whether you're happy, then you're not.

Very zen!

sjw98 posted:

Surely everyone who likes Naim also must love "tinkering"?  

 

No - not in my case - great electronics make great music, end of. 

Dan43 posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

Dan43 posted:

So many variables make up the final enjoyment to the individual, hence test test test (if you find a dealer happy to indulge this even better) and find your own favourite flavour. I suspect a lot of us though have bought a lot of different levels and abilities in our kit before finally settling on that 5-10 year life of that ideal system, plus add in new developments and it is a constantly moving target unfortunately.

Wow, is that all you expect? I'd hate to have to consider any change in that timeframe, which would suggest the system isn't ideal (unless you mean due to failure -but even that should be better).

I woud expect an ideal system to last a lifetime, literally, with no component failing in less than 10 years having to be replaced (and when something does fail it would be replaced with the same thing or current equivalent, because if the system is ideal then I would try to avoid change) - and in fact I realistically expect amps and speakers to last decades barring accidents, non-mechanical sources hopefully also, though on from the streaming angle they are relatively recent introductions and their longterm longevity isn't yet proven (ignoring firmware updates, which are not necessary if it does what I want it to do). This precludes changes that might result from other events, like moving house changing the room sufficiently to adversely affect the sound (and not readily retrievable with acceptable room treatment), or a windfall providing funds to just go and see if there is anything better, even though that has not been an intent or desire...

Not particularly maybe a lifetime for some maybe with changing equipment it is a year or two, a lifetime is a long time and 40-50 years use after finding that perfect speaker is pretty awesome.

No I imagine again it is individual your mileage and others will differ, no absolutes at all just a rough assumption, if a system lasts 30 years then the value of the original purchase is just exceptional in its return and enjoyment.

Cars are expected to change every 3-5 years wonder what mileage then the ideal system, at the time you purchased it, should be expected to last?

All NDS purchasers changed their systems they must have done as it was new to market, good question then about longevity of a system and expectations of it.

Personally I prefer to find what I like and then keep it, with no hankering for change - if the music sounds fantastic, why change? I had my last pair of speakers for about 25 years, with no desire to change, and only did this year because I had some unexpected resources and as they were about 45 years old it seemed like an opportunity to find something even better, that would then last me what hopefully will be more than another 25 years, while beaing a visual and aural momento of someone.

As for cars, the cars I've liked I've kept a lot more than 5 years, my Saab, for example, lasted me about 8 years and 100k miles, having been purchased a couple of years only with 80k on the clock, and my only reasons for selling was rust around the sunroof needing a fair cost to fix properly and a feeling that it must be getting close the point where other big bills would start.

But then I know I tend not to just do things like a majority, but purely what makes sense to me.

Adam Meredith posted:

feeling_zen posted:

If you have to ask whether you're happy, then you're not.

Similarly, I sometimes ask myself if I'm wrong (I know - scarcely believable) but now I know I'm not.

Or am I?

Whereas I'm in two minds as the whether I'm undecided. I think.

Allowing for the terrible affliction that is audiophilia neurosis ultimately if Iit doesn't seem right then it probably isn't right.  HH could  be on to something with regard to the speakers but me thinks the OP needs a re-think.  

One other point  - one box systems have really come on leaps and bounds but ultimately and everything else being equal isating high performating electronics from each other is going to provide for an improved musical experience.  

Regards,

Lindsay

The need to 'play away' from home once in a while is a human failing, and why not?  It does us good to go exploring from time to time, if only to re-confirm our current choices.

Following a recent advertising email from that Scottish company, I booked an individual listening session with an Exakt DSM and Exakt 350 speakers... so a significant box reduction from my own NDS/2x555PS,  552, 500, B&W Diamonds, and if one believes the incoming email, a significant improvement in SQ.

Here's what I wrote to the dealer who hosted me for half a day earlier this week:

Thanks for your time on Monday, I found the experience very enjoyable.

 One possible explanation for my ‘understated reaction’ is that my Naim system comes very close to what I heard in your dem room, another explanation may be that at my age my hearing is beginning to diminish (OK, is well diminished! ) and the subtleties that are apparent to younger folk are nowadays lost to me.

 I did, as I said I would, listen to my system soon after returning home; in particular to that track from the album ‘Trio’.  You are absolutely right, there are all three ladies on there – I’d previously missed the one on the right of Dolly (is that Emmylou?), but on careful listening she’s there OK.  It was also quite clear that the bass rendition on the Exakt 350 system outperforms my own by a significant margin.  However, the Naim system seems to enable more precise placement and separation both laterally and in depth of the components of the performance.  Whether this is an accurate portrayal of the original recording engineer’s intention, or whether, as you suggested, the Exact system is giving a more ‘natural’ portrayal, it’s difficult to discern without having been in the studio at the time, so when I’m sat listening to the Exakt system, I’m judging it by what I’m used to hearing – that must be a perennial obstacle for you, but nonetheless, one you’re accustomed to !

 You asked and I didn’t answer fully, what system I’m listening to at the moment:  it’s mostly Naim,  an NDS streamer with 2x555PS feeding a NAC552DR pre through Chord Music interconnect, feeding a NAP500 power amp through Chord Sarum Super Array, driving B&W 802 diamond speakers through Naim Super Lumia cables.  There’s other peripheral analogue and digital sources too, as I mentioned.

 As I see it, then, the advantage to me of the Exakt system is a reduced box count; I don’t hear a significant uplift in sound quality.  This being the case, I shall stick with what I have for the time being.

So, I've ventured out and scratched the itch, as they say, and returned very satisfied to live with my Naim setup.  It's an exercise I recommend to you every few years... it's actually about 30 years since I owned a fully active Scottish system and in between that and my current Naim system, I dabbled with some American and Canadian options, but I'm happy now and can return to my listening pleasures, satisfied that what I have is the best for me right now.

Roger

Note to Richard - not sure if I'm supposed to mention model numbers in the Scottish heirarchy, but since this is very close to their top-of-the-line setup, it serves to put my comments in perspective, I hope.

I love your analogy of "playing away from home" Roger. And given your system specs you appeared to be briefly playing away from home whilst married to one of the most beautiful women in the world! No wonder you returned

Another sad case of being wowed by the initial wow factor and then the magic fading!

I have heard the top end Pre/power set up a couple of times now and I can see the attraction but for the long term????  No thank you, nothing beats my humble 552/500.

The SN is a cracking amp, I wouldn't hesitate to get one if I was looking for an amp in that price range 

Humble 552/500��

The Strat (Fender) posted:

Humble 552/500��

Although I haven't heard Devialet, I know I can't live without Naim. My solution which works for me personally, was to run two systems - a Naim system into Epos ES14 speakers in one room, and a boutique, hand made valve/vinyl system with point to point wiring into Harbeth SHL5 speakers in the other room. Whenever I might feel that something is missing with one system, I put on the other. I don't recommend it for others, but this particular solution works for me, and I feel less of the upgraditis itch I had previously (although a 52/Supercap is my ultimate goal for the Naim system). I get all the warmth and detail I want with the valve system, and all the boogie I need with the Naim system.

I recently had the pleasure of hearing both the Statement amps and the Uniti Atom and both sounded fantastic to me. I think that Naim is just getting better and better, and has something unique to offer that no other audio company does.

sjw98 posted:

Hi all

ive had many Naim systems in the past including, at best cds2 into 82/250. More recently I had an NDX / Supernait combo and loved it. Having moved house and needing the money I sold my set up including Muso and was left bare for 12 months or so. 

Having been extremely impressed with Devialet I recently bought a Devialet 120. It sounds fantastic. BUT I think I may be addicted to that Naim sound. I'm just not 100% happy. 

Has anyone directly compared a D120 with a Superuniti? I do want to stay one box, and I know there is a previous forum topic seemingly comparing the two but it rapidly went off topic! Any direct comparison would be appreciated. 

Plus any mocking for me moving away would be graciously received

steve 

you can checkout but you can never leave!

Claus

sjw98 posted:

Hi all

ive had many Naim systems in the past including, at best cds2 into 82/250. More recently I had an NDX / Supernait combo and loved it. Having moved house and needing the money I sold my set up including Muso and was left bare for 12 months or so. 

Having been extremely impressed with Devialet I recently bought a Devialet 120. It sounds fantastic. BUT I think I may be addicted to that Naim sound. I'm just not 100% happy. 

Has anyone directly compared a D120 with a Superuniti? I do want to stay one box, and I know there is a previous forum topic seemingly comparing the two but it rapidly went off topic! Any direct comparison would be appreciated. 

Plus any mocking for me moving away would be graciously received

steve 

Steve, I have heard Devialet quite a number of times and a friend also had a Devialet based system. I think the difference is that the Devialet wow's in the beginning and has some impressive aspects as detail and overall mass out of one box. My feeling is that you don't get some of these aspects out of one box at Naim, while you do get of course with any box of Naim the musical connection. I have the feeling that you could become happy with a two box solution 272 with 250. But it's of course a different level of budget.

The superuniti at first might give you the emotional aspect, but you might still be going back and forth in your mind.

Finally be aware of the emotional aspect, not being totally happy with what you have right now, might make you open to quick switches which again don't make you happy. So take your time in the process.

Good luck.

+1 to what Bert said. Take your time by all means but please don't get caught up in the agonising analysis-paralysis that seems to afflict so many.

Chris

Hungryhalibut posted:

Steve, you don't mention whether you have changed speakers as well as the room. If so, there are too many changes in play. I've used Naim for over thirty years and am acclimatised to the sound, so other things sound wrong, even though they are simply different. I don't believe Naim is the only way, or the only make that can get you close to the music. Devialet might be even better, I just don't know. 

If you are listening to less music it's a sign that something is not quite right, whether it's the Devialet, the speakers, the room, or even something else entirely in your life. My only suggestion is to borrow a Naim setup and see if that gives you what you want. As well as the SU it would be worth trying the NDX/SN2 again, or maybe a 272 based system. Both of the two box options are much, much better than the SU, and I'd say are worth a try. 

I agree with Nigel, although my Naim experience is only about twelve to thirteen years. There are many hifi manufacturers that are similar to Naim for enjoyment... and yes they can do the emotion connection, and PRaT thing. (At an audio engineering level those are attributes that I recognize as being relayed through accurate low distortion audio reproduction). So if there is something not quite right and you are listening to less music then it's worth exploring.. it can be room balance, system synergy etc.. it could be your new system has a different audio response that is exciting reflections or resonances in your room.. In my experience Naim can be more room friendly than some other manufacturers as frequency extremes appear slightly curtailed on many Naim components.

Naim isn't perfect but I like the way you can tweak it, upgrade it and even downgrade it. I know it's expensive but all us Naim fans get a bit excited when they bring out a new product we can upgrade to. With one of these shiny things it's all kind of final, the sound you get is the sound you get. It's not for me and I don't care what it sounds like. It's not hifi to me. 

Christopher_M posted:

+1 to what Bert said. Take your time by all means but please don't get caught up in the agonising analysis-paralysis that seems to afflict so many.

Chris

Exactly so. You should just be able to sling something on, put your feet up, have a cup of tea, and enjoy the music without even thinking about it. 

Home-demoed the Dev 120 head to head for a couple of days with a NAC282, for me the 282 won that impression...

Changed from  CDS2/52/Phonosophie amp to a D200 in 2014. I kept my Naim equipment almost a year after i got the Devialet before I finally sold it.  Have not heard the D129 though.