App Autodiscovery of Streamer

It's not a known issue.  But it's also not an unknown issue in the sense that network problems are not unknown with any streaming setup.  Assuming your muso Qb is close enough to your router to get a good wifi signal from the router and assuming that your iPad is on the same wifi network, then it should all just work and as it has worked for you before, then the first thing I would try is turn off your router, your muso and your iPad and restart them in that order, waiting for each to finish starting up before you turn the next one on. You should check that your muso Qb is giving you a solid white light on the small light on the back before starting the app.  If it isn't giving you a solid white, then I would start the Naim app and set up the muso Qb again from scratch.

I don't think this is going to turn out to be an issue with the app because the Naim app is very stable.  But you could try just restarting the app as a quick first thing to try. (By restarting I mean press the home button twice quickly, scroll across to find the Naim app and sweep upwards to close it.  At least I assume IOS 10 still does that the same way as IOS 9.)  You may get advice to delete and reinstall the Naim app, but personally I think that is never necessary in the situation you describe.

best

David

bencrosby posted:

I have recently run in to an issue where the iOS app can no longer see my Muso. 

NetAnalzer Pro finds it, and the Muso shows up as an AirPlay target from the same device. It's only the Naim app that's failing. 

I'm hoping this is a known issue. 

UniFi Network Kit, iPad Pro, iOS 10.1.1, Naim App v4.9, talking to a MuSo Qb, v1.5

Ta. 

Hi, it's not a known issue as far as I am aware.. however sometimes routers and things can change settings that upset how certain thing on TCP/IP networks work. So you might want to check on your router or wifi access point something called 'ICMP Snooping' - and it must have the word 'snooping' as opposed to anything else - has not been enabled.

Also you need to try and ensure you are not using kludges like Ethernet powerline adapters as these can interfere with proper network functions as well..

Thanks for the comments guys, a couple of other pieces of information;

My network is very stable. No powerline, strong wifi, no nonsense. 

The Muso Qb is *Ethernet* connected, not Wi-Fi. 

The key annoyance for me is that the Muso is discovered by iOS  all the time as an airplay speaker. I can be sending an airplay stream to it, open the naim app, and the app will tell me no streamers found. 

If there were issues with the iOS layer autodiscovering the speaker, then I would be more suspicious of the network, but that isn't the case here. I have been testing, and the iPad in question sees 5 mDNS services from the Muso. They are; _Naim-Updater._tcp. ; _airplay._tcp. ; _http._tcp. ; _raop._tcp. and _spotify-connect._tcp. 

There are no multicast or IGMP snooping issues, or airplay would be failing too. 

Since both devices in question are on the same layer 2 network, there is no involvement of the router. The traffic path is iPad <> Wireless AP (Unifi AC Pro) <> Switch (USW48) <> MuSo 

Rebooting the AP, Switch, iPad or MuSo has no effect. 

How is the MuSo successfully discovered as an airplay speaker all the time, and yet the app can't find it?

Thanks for the help, keep the suggestions coming

David Hendon posted:

You should check that your muso Qb is giving you a solid white light on the small light on the back before starting the app.  If it isn't giving you a solid white, then I would start the Naim app and set up the muso Qb again from scratch.

Hi David, Thanks for the suggestions. 

There is a solid white light when the Qb is turned on. When it's asleep, there is no light. 

When I turn on the Qb, it almost immediately resumes iRadio, so it's obviously okay with the network too. 

Restarting the app as you suggested didn't work either. Frankly, I'm ready to try a reinstall just to see if it helps. 

Cheers!

Well as you say if the multicast discovery IP address was being blocked by the home LAN then it wouldn't be working for AirPlay... UPnP and AirPlay use SSDP and the same address from memory... so it does sound regrettably app or app integration related, assuming those update messages you see are from the Qb are in response to the discovery advertisements...or wifi related. ... but again if AirPlay is working over wifi then so should UPnP.

if you know how to use wireshark, you could be more definitive of course... have you the ability to create an IGMP querier? If so you could try increasing the advertisement update frequency .. if this means nothing to you, please ignore..

I can indeed use wireshark / tcpdump, however it means network changes to drop a hub inline with the ethernet cable to the Qb. I have no idea what I've done with my 10/100 Hub, haven't seen it in a very long time. I may buy another one to get o the bottom of this  It's a bit annoying since I have an atom, core and nova on preorder

I have occasionally found deleting the Naim app from the iOS device, and reinstalling it, puts things right when other, more thoughtful efforts fail.

Nick

Predictable though my advice is, it is worth ruling out, as it takes less time than this post took to type (with my forehead).

Nick

Thanks Nick, Did have a crack at that, still unable to discover the streamer. I'm going to pop out and buy a hub tomorrow so I can do a packet capture.

Ben

Cheers, Ben.

Good luck.  Interested in your findings. Any other iOS devices about, to parallel-test with?

Nick

bencrosby posted:

I can indeed use wireshark / tcpdump, however it means network changes to drop a hub inline with the ethernet cable to the Qb. I have no idea what I've done with my 10/100 Hub, haven't seen it in a very long time. I may buy another one to get o the bottom of this  It's a bit annoying since I have an atom, core and nova on preorder

 

Ok i suspect from your posts you know what is what... of course a hub will reflect the traffic on all ports, but as i am sure you are  aware it forces half duplex operation it can change the network timing and dynamics... you might want to get a cheap used managed switch like a 2960 8 port.. I think they also tend to sound better than my consumer switches too because I suspect of a better link PHY clock jitter.. but that's another story...

However a 2960 can be set to port mirror so you can get a full duplex feed into Wireshark or similar without changing anything ... great for debugging and seeing what's going on under the covers with UPnP Tidal, web radio etc when there are dropouts etc... it also allows you to have informed discussion with Naim support to help get to the bottom of things.... A 2960 can also be set up as an IGMP querier which helps keep  multicast address  ports open (where snooping is used) and MAC address tables updated  on all relevant devices on your home network in my experience making for a smoother and sometimes more responsive user experience on the Naim app especially from wake up or sleep.

Thanks ! In my experience Simon, the catalyst mirroring code / SPAN is not great, particularly on a 2xxx series switch. Turning it on does as much to affect the behaviour of the network as introducing a hub. It has the added side-effect of rewriting the running-config file, which depending on any given firmware bugs can also reset the misbehaviour. I prefer to leave everything in the same state config-wise and drop a hub inline with the cable. 

I've already done a simple port mirror on the main switch, and I can see all the ssdp / mdns traffic passing just fine, hence the confusion where the Qb is successfully advertising airplay and the naim app can't see it. 

I am beginning to think that Naim are using something other than SSDP to discover players. 

ps - as an added fault-finding, setting the room up manually by IP means the app can control the Qb, so thats why my focus is on discovery at this stage.

I'm running an IGMP querier on a different system to keep the Qb awake. So it's not that either....

Painful and annoying.

By the way, I haven't completely eliminated the possibility that it could be a switch firmware issue either, fwiw.

Honestly, setting a port span on the 2960 is fine for these uses... I do reasonably often and in my professional world, as always just make sure you don't exceed the capacity of the mirrored port on the mirror and you are fine and you will have plenty of headroom on your home network. I don't tend to span/mirror over a  VLANs at home anyway, which is where I find you can saturate a span and have to be more careful... But of course the switch dynamics and full duplex operation is maintained.. The running config file is fine, I leave it in, and simply set up a dedicated port just for mirroring... the config is just a a few simple instructions.

Get  your Wireshark going, and you will good old SSDP being used with its multicast address (239.255.255.250) in operation.... I always check for that on the ports going to my audio equipment.

what switch are you using? Peeps around this parts often use little Netgears which dumb down all this functionality into a simple blind multicast broadcast.. not ideal in many cases, but perfect here and can paper over cracks from elsewhere

As Simon says a lot of us use the Netgear GS105, which costs very little. In my case apart from helping make discovery work reliably for Naim streamers, it also sorted out my Win 7 Thinkpad from losing sight of my Brother network laser printer.

But you guys are far ahead of me on the network stuff so I will leave it to Simon. But I'm unsure whether you tried deleting and reinstalling the app. Contrary to my earlier advice, there is one particular reason for doing that which is that it forces all the associated data and settings to be forgotten. So if you delete the app, reinstall it and then use the "find my streamer" function on the home page of the app, it might put you back where it works (that's assuming I'm reading you right that it used to work).

best

David

David, Ta, yep, did try that per your and other suggestions. No dice. And yes, you're right this used to work, although how long ago I can't say. It's been a while since I've used the Qb. 

Since so many different elements of our lives are "firmware updated" or "software updated" on an almost continual basis now, it's tough to know... Is it the app? the iOS version? the network switch software? something else...

I'm just hunting for my iPad ethernet cable to get rid of WiFi from the equation....

Okay, so I've now got the iPad on Ethernet as opposed to Wi-Fi. 

It's not a Naim app issue. My observation is that Naim aren't using mDNS to discover their streamers, they're using uPnP. That's why the wretched thing has been showing up resolutely as an airplay speaker (mDNS / tcp) when the app can't find it. 

So I'm off to a different community to get to the bottom of what firmware / software update broke uPnP on a layer 2 network switch. 

Thanks everyone for your helpful suggestions.

Cheers

Ben

i know it won't help you but we have four IOS devices here talking to five Naim streamers including a muso Qb and it just all works all the time. It would be worth dropping an email to support@naimaudio.com as the guys there see and fix many different problems and they don't normally follow the public forum or at least only do if they come across something by chance.

best

David

Ahh, yep, once I was certain where the issue was, I would have gone to them. But as we all know, the networking kit issues are just as likely culprits these days, and I prefer to get to the root cause and go from there. Really appreciate all the helpful suggestions, its great to have other minds pointing at things you've forgotten to try / check.

Good luck and do please come back and tell us what the answer was when you find it. That might help us to help someone else.

best

David

Ok - perhaps Qb is different - but as I say Naim use SSDP (using multicast/UDP) as used by UPnP  on its actual streamers.  It is being used on the NDX - and the later firmware from Naim improved V1 and V2 IGMP to help with compatibility, this is what I see from my switch that feeds my NDX

Chalkie#show ip igmp snooping groups
Vlan  Group                  Type     Version  Port List
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
5       233.233.233.233 igmp    v2           Fa0/1, Fa0/6
5       239.255.255.250 igmp    v1,v2      Fa0/1, Fa0/3,
                                                                    Fa0/5, Fa0/6,
                                                                    Fa0/7, Fa0/8

Fa0/7 is my NDX

I guess your app is set to auto discovery?

What switch are you using - either it will be a basic  switch where it blindly broadcasts multicast - such as little Netgear or its trying to snoop and perhaps incorrectly - if the IGMP snooping groups don't match as above - I suggest disable IGMP snooping and let it simply blindly rebroadcast the multicast frames

S