Hiigher volume listening

Clipping can be a common problem with a NAP200 and Allae speakers. It has something to do with the impedance. 

My friend had this combi and had the same problem, but it only occurs at silly levels. With the SuperUniti no such problems at high levels.  

Or the Supernait2, no such problems at high play back levels. Those are not the first Naim speakers I have heard break up at higher listening levels.

Could be the amp starting to clip, or the drivers are reaching their maximum extension, or bottoming out

A NAP 250 will give you greater control at higher levels, and sound better than a NAP 200. A more efficient speaker will also give you higher sound pressure levels. Getting 3db greater efficiency in the speakers is like doubling your amplifier power. Of course this discussion hasn't addressed sound quality. Upgrading your amplifier means you get your current sound, only better.

Your speakers are reasonable efficiency already, around 89dB/W. So upping the amp is probably the easiest option. As a curve ball, if you like Allae's you might be interested in Ovator S400's. They work well with a NAP 200, (I speak from experience), and I play my music at as close to live level sd I can. Should be a pair ex demo or very close to new somewhere.

Musky posted:

 

My system is great for me however when I require higher sound levels for parties a speaker makes a "popping" sound once the volume is turned to 12 o'clock.

My amp is rated 70w and my speakers 6 ohms 100 w so I was thinking about either upgrading the amp to NAC 250 (80 W) or upgrading my speakers to say 150w.

badlands posted:

Could be the amp starting to clip, or the drivers are reaching their maximum extension, or bottoming out

Amp clipping due to overload is a common cause of speaker failure, especially with prolonged use. The solution is a more powerful amp that will give the same output level without clipping.

Speaker bottoming out due to excessive power can also cause speaker failure, for which if the same output is desired the only solution is different speakers.

it is imortant tondiagnose which of these it is.  From the description, 'popping' sounds (!) to me like the speakers unless the amp has overload protection circuitry operating a relay that is briefly interrupting the sound (someone more familiar with your amp may be able to advise) - pure amp overload usually simply sounds like distortion not popping (and often not even noticeable at the onset).

Musky posted:

Hi

I'm new to this forum and would welcome advice please.....

My system comprises NDX,CDX,NAC 202,NAC 200, Flatcap , NAPSC and Allaes.

My system is great for me however when I require higher sound levels for parties a speaker makes a "popping" sound once the volume is turned to 12 o'clock.

My amp is rated 70w and my speakers 6 ohms 100 w so I was thinking about either upgrading the amp to NAC 250 (80 W) or upgrading my speakers to say 150w.

Any thoughts would be much appreciated.

Thanks

 

 

 

Hi I have BW 1800 rated 30 to 200w ...I use a nac 122x / somtimes nac 202 ' Flatcap 2x and nap 150x with them.  I thought that the amp rated at 50w would struggle to drive them ' but the output is lovely..I would be looking at speakers that can handle 200w with your amp ' if you want party sound levels...Naim amps will drive most speakers...I have tried naim speakers SBL etc ' but find B W better to my ear..It is all experimentation..

Naim speakers are designed for out and out quality at normal listening levels, and (most of them) aren't really designed to go anywhere close to disco sound levels.

Maybe not disco levels - but they should go pretty loud without straining. Isn't that part of the raison d'etre of a quality hi-fi?

To get as close to the live event without falling apart (distortion, glare, boom etc.), as well as giving a flavour of the power and nuance at lower (normal) listening levels.

2 sides of the same coin and very difficult to get both right. I suspect this is where active shines. 

Musky & others,  can you please state what the in room dB level is,  loud without a dB number is meaningless.   Most tablets & smart phone have free apps to measure volume.     

That said running a Naim amp at 12 o'clock is madness,  my Supernait with its 83dB/W/m speakers its well over the 100dB mark at that position & is unbearable.  I value my hearing & rarely go over 90dB/

Leaving aside what others feel about loud playing, and whether or not madness is involved, the OP has a problem doing what he wants to do.

How loud a system will go for a given volume control setting depend on other factors as well as speaker sensitivity, including the size of room, its furnishing, and the listening position, and, when a party is taking place, the number of bodies crammed in. Meanwhile measuring levels In the room (subject to up to 5dB tolerance with an uncalibrated app) that just tells how loud at the position measured, not what is limiting the loudness.

If the speaker is the limiting factor as I hypothesised, the only sulution is replacement ones that  either have greater sensitivity, enabling the same amp power go louder, or have significantly greater power handling capacity, when the limiting factor may become the amp.

That is assuming the present speakers aren't simply faulty: listening carefully, does the effect happen on both channels when music with similar content on each channel is played? If so it would seem less likely to be an actual speaker fault, but simply overloading. If it is just one speaker, swap the amp output so the soeakers are connected the wrong way round: if the same speaker then it points to a fault with the speaker, but if it then changes it could be simply that that piece of music has more of the content that is triggering than the other channel, in which case also swap the power amp input - so the speakers go back to the normal channels, just the power amp channels swapped around. If the noise doesn't then revert, it would suggest an amp fault after all.

Huge posted:

Naim speakers are designed for out and out quality at normal listening levels, and (most of them) aren't really designed to go anywhere close to disco sound levels.

DBL's and NBL's (great speakers) aside, which could play at ridiculous levels without strain.

You do state (most of them), so technically, I guess there would be some truth to your statement, but it still doesn't make it OK. I have compared other very high quality speakers that have no trouble playing at elevated levels and absolutely do not break up or bottom out when paired with the proper ancillaries.

If you do not believe what I'm saying, audition ATC, Dynaudio, Focal, Sonus Faber's, Magico,  Wilson, Triangle, B&W, and the new Spendor D series speakers, to name a few, and crank them!!!!

These speakers are all what I would consider, at the very least, equal in quality, or designed for out and out quality, as you put it.  The difference between those speakers and Naim, if what your saying is true, were meant to be played at ANY listening level.

 Kind of a moot point I know, since Naim doesn't manufacturer speakers anymore. Could be one of the reasons they were never great selling speakers.

Badlands,I have to disagree with you regarding Dynaudio,I have owned the Focus 160's,the C1 Mk 11's,and currently own the excite 12's and Focus xd 600's.The first three I mention are passive models,the xd's are active,and all three passive models,I had them "pop"on me when turned up too loud or bottom out.Mind you,I do like to listen at quite loud volumes,but it was one of the reasons I moved on from the C1's to the xd 600's,which have never "popped" or bottomed out.I had it happen while using a Supernait 2,and /or a Cary Audio SA 200.2,so there was lots of power,but Dyn's are known to be power hungry.Great sounding speakers,that is why I still use them,but they sound SO good at high volume,you don't realize you are about to hit their limit,and that popping sound sure wakes you up.

Hmmm, I can't say I have ever heard Dyn's break up or bottom out, on the contrary, I have heard them at ridiculous levels and never heard them pop. But I surly don't doubt your experience, it's just I personally have never experienced it.

It's funny you mention the C1's. At this years Axpona show, they were playing with Mark Levinson 100 watt mono blocks at extremely high levels and never did they break up.

All of the Dyns you mention are stand mount speakers except the XD 600's, so maybe the amps used did not have enough current, but the Excite X38 speakers (floor standing) I have driven by a SN2, have never come close to being overdriven or break up. My ears give up long before the speakers or amp do.

I do like to listen for short spells over 90 db's with peaks hitting 110 with my xd 600's...when I have had a few.

Seems strange, my SN2 will drive my Focals to levels way beyond comfort with no popping or distortion.  I suspect they could go even louder with a more powerful amp but you'd be risking your hearing in a normal sized room by that point.

Surely its about handling dynamics and being able to differentiate different dynamic intensities. A speaker/amp playing loud that compresses on transients is hugely distorting the audio, and of course the ear distorts internally as well. Therefore the optimum sound for minimum anatomical distortion as well as replay compression is for minimum  compression in our hearing and differentiation of peaks and transients. If the average level is so loud as to not make this possible or become limited  it's either too loud for our hearing or equipment, unless we want a compressed transient effect. To my mind it's not dissimilar to biasing on a class a amplifier other than the load line is non linear.... I found a fascinating document in the AES library describing these considerations. But simply making a loud noise from an amp/speaker is not too difficult 

to the OP, popping sounds like some sort of amp/speaker instability.. are you using at least 3.5m of NACA5? I would contact Naim support.. this does not sound right.

Hi Simon,I am not sure if you are talking to me or Musky about the "popping",but for me,I had the same issue with 2 different amps,and several members at AVS Dynaudio forum have had similar experiences.Dynaudio are aware of it and have completely re-designed their drivers for the new Contour line that is just now being released.I am not saying this is why they redisigned them,but apparently the new design can achieve much higher spl's...I have not heard a pair yet,they are not even in too many stores yet.Myself,I use 7 meter Naca5 wires.

ahh ok - as you long as you have sorted - popping to me sounds baaaaad

S

Yes, poppong is certainly bad, and a warning of impending damage.

Re compression distortion at high levels, playing loud might be more prevalent for rock music listening, mimicking a live performance, in which case the recording may very well be quite compressed and so compression distortion in the speakers may be less evident. And of course some speakers, e.g.  ATC and PMC, have drivers engineered to maintain linearity far more than others by judicious sizing of voice coil and magnet gap lengths, so might be expected to sound better than others when played loud. 

The one time I have experienced said popping was on my old IMFs. There have been occasions when I played at high levels, approaching that of being at a rock gig, without speaker distress (and for limited periods, to minimise distress on me), but one piece of music, Telarc's 24bit recording of Tchaikowsky's 1812, I always had to play at a much lower level than I liked because otherwise the canons would push the speaker cones into their end stops and risk serious damage. The PMCs I have now are fine with the level I want to listen to the piece, coping with the cannons when they come (but in terms of realism of levels, the canons of course are still only as if they are ourside the concert hall - I don't want shattered windows, let alone eardrums!)

Badlands,

The HF 'headroom' on older Naim speakers is 5dB (limited by the ScanSpeak tweeters).

For the DBLs and NBLs the maximum mechanical output at HF is 5dB louder than earlier / smaller models (ScanSpeak 2010 vs ScanSpeak 2008).

Please also note that I said designed "for out and out quality at normal listening levels".
I didn't exclude use of some models at higher volumes with commensurate reduction of sound quality and potential for damage, just that this wasn't the design criterion, so such use shouldn't necessarily be expected of the product (especially not under all circumstances).

Huge posted:

Badlands,

The HF 'headroom' on older Naim speakers is 5dB (limited by the ScanSpeak tweeters).

For the DBLs and NBLs the maximum mechanical output at HF is 5dB louder than earlier / smaller models (ScanSpeak 2010 vs ScanSpeak 2008).

 

Huge, re first para, what do you mean by headroom in this context? Headroom relative to what? (Second para is clear)

Maximum short term acoustic output (<1ms) without mechanical damage, vs maximum sustained (approx 1s) acoustic output at maximum designed distortion level.

When I had a chrome bumper Nap250 it would frequently shut down at high listening levels. After cooling down it was fine again but it was bloody annoying so I got a pair of 135s which solved it. I would assume that modern Naim power amps would have equivalent thermal protection so the popping sound is more likely to be the speakers than the amp and thus a sign of possible imminent damage. In my experience Naim amps go silent when they are in trouble rather than make popping noises. It may be worth ringing Naim to confirm this.

I did audition Allaes some years ago but rejected them because they weren't  very good  with dub reggae and heavy rock, although very nice with plinky plonky jazz. I now have a Superuniti which seems to have plenty of oomph. I also have N-Sats and I needed to be a bit careful with them until I added a sub woofer. Now they can really rock out without nasty noises intruding so if you like the Allae sound, a sub may be worth considering.

Thank you, Huge!

Pev, it's only the regulated amps that do that, the 200 is unregulated, so that just struggles on regardless!