Hiigher volume listening

The general consensus on the Dynaudio Forum is that the "popping" sound is the speaker hitting its physical limits,not the amp breaking down,or clipping.One member ran into this issue,even with (i think) 500 watt monoblocks, there is only so much excursion a smaller driver can take.Even the Dyn rep who frequents the forum,confirmed this,and assured us that this is not an issue with their new design drivers...they are now going with a smaller diameter magnet and the driver has more travel.

Huge posted:

Naim speakers are designed for out and out quality at normal listening levels, and (most of them) aren't really designed to go anywhere close to disco sound levels.

But I can have a ceilidh with my Keilidhs 

Hi some good advice by others on this thread, my view is ..... if your Nap200 is struggling a bit ............... the issue will be the psu running out of puff....irrespective of rated wattage - I recon a Nap250 would sound much more dynamic and appear louder... its psu is fully regulated and pretty stout.  You must remember - a few really good watts sounds really loud .... you are probably asking the Nap200 to deliver 25w - but the transients will be far higher  .... giving the clipping. Demo a 250dr with your speakers... I think you will be surprised!!! Also note there are some fine sh Nap250's coming up for sale. 

Richieroo posted:

Hi some good advice by others on this thread, my view is ..... if your Nap200 is struggling a bit ............... the issue will be the psu running out of puff....irrespective of rated wattage - I recon a Nap250 would sound much more dynamic and appear louder... its psu is fully regulated and pretty stout.  You must remember - a few really good watts sounds really loud .... you are probably asking the Nap200 to deliver 25w - but the transients will be far higher  .... giving the clipping. Demo a 250dr with your speakers... I think you will be surprised!!! Also note there are some fine sh Nap250's coming up for sale. 

But if it is a speaker overload problem, which available information tends to suggest, rather than an amp clipping problem, then upping the power amp's power capability risks making  it worse with an increased risk of damage if more transients get through at a level sufficient to drive the cones onto the end stops...  

Just listening to my Allaes powered by a Superuniti, went as loud as I dare, I backed off before any signs of stress from the hardware !

Nick

As Mike pointed out earlier one person's 'too loud' is another person's 'normal listening' level; if the latter turn's it up to their 'loud', then...

Without the SPL we can't be sure.

The OP was quoting '12:00' on the volume control with a NDX / 202 / 200 system, and with some modern excessively hot CD transfers that may well be an overload.

With some modern albums I find anything over '08:45' to be significantly too loud (roughly equivalent to 25 on the 272 volume).
I can only play a very few classical pieces with low transfer levels above '10:30' (roughly equivalent to 45 on the 272 volume).
My Spendor SP2s are 88dB / 2.83V / 1m sensitivity; I believe the Allaes are 89dB / 2.83V / 1m sensitivity, so not a significant difference.

Huge,my hearing must be shot then...I also have a 272 with a 250dr,my speakers are 92 DB at  1 meter and 8 ohm.My normal listening level is 45 or 50 on the dial,when I have Internet radio playing as background music it is usually at 30 on the dial.When I am critical listening and a good song comes on that I want to "crank up"...I hit 60 on the dial,am i alone in this?

100% Huge re different albums,  so without an SPL number .................   

I play an DSD of Carmen Gomes Inc. "Thousand Shades of Blue" at 12 o'clock.  Its a live jazz recording & at that position I hear the room detail & atmosphere,  but even at 12 o'clock its not "too" loud.   

Whereas when I play Roger Walters 24/192kHz at 9 o'clock,  the loud & extremely dynamic bits have me running for the door, its truly scary & has me feeling sorry for the speakers.      (you need the 24-bit 2015 remaster  to hear this,  its not on vinyl or the old/original release) 

My Allaes started to make funny noises after a long loud session (volume at about 11oclock) whilst driven by my old Nap 250,it turned out that the phase plug on the right channel had started to come out.The sound was unaffected at low listening levels even though the phase plug was nearly completely out. after a search on here I found out that this is not uncommon after a prolonged loud listening session, it was easy enough to fix after i contacted Phil Harris he sent me a repair pack.

Karl 

No quarter posted:

Huge,my hearing must be shot then...I also have a 272 with a 250dr,my speakers are 92 DB at  1 meter and 8 ohm.My normal listening level is 45 or 50 on the dial,when I have Internet radio playing as background music it is usually at 30 on the dial.When I am critical listening and a good song comes on that I want to "crank up"...I hit 60 on the dial,am i alone in this?

Actually it's more likely to be age related hearing loss on my part that makes me more sensitive to loudness!

I prefer to listen at 73-76dBA(slow) with occasional brief excursions to about 80dBA(slow).
These levels are quite low by most people's standards, but they suit my ears.  However, many recent CDs with the volume at '12:00' would give well over 95dBA(slow) with peaks well in excess of 103dBA(fast).

No quarter posted:

Huge,my hearing must be shot then...I also have a 272 with a 250dr,my speakers are 92 DB at  1 meter and 8 ohm.My normal listening level is 45 or 50 on the dial,when I have Internet radio playing as background music it is usually at 30 on the dial.When I am critical listening and a good song comes on that I want to "crank up"...I hit 60 on the dial,am i alone in this?

I usually play mine at about 32, very rarely at about 45 if someone wants to listen at that volume. I'm not sure how efficient my speakers are but I think they are quite easy to drive. I've played it at 60 a couple of times but it was too loud for more than a few minutes: I worried about my ears and my neighbours, despite having a detached house and the windows shut. 

My room is quite small - 5.5m long and 3.6m wide, and I can imagine needing to turn it up in a larger space. 

Having temporary total hearing loss in my right ear following my head injury in August demonstrated in awful clarity how important hearing is, and listening to really loud music for long periods seems sort of reckless. My hearing is already quite addled from too many loud concerts in the past, and I have a steep decline above 2kHz. 

What levels different people like, and what levels the OP is achieving, are actually irrelevant to the question of the popping sound, other than whether anyone else can or can't replicate with the same speakers in a similar room. What he needs is a solution - which to me seems to be a need for different speakers, with higher acoustic output capability, e.g. through higher sensitivity and/or greater power handling capacity.

As an aside Mike-B mentioned Roger Waters - what album? I actually found the 24/192 version of Amused to Death far inferior in sound quality to the ripped CD, and only play the latter  - and yes, there are places where the music makes you jump if listened to at a moderate average level - effective isn't it? I don't run for the door, though, and I have no fear for the speakers as I know they can handle it, and more (which they get to do occasionally!) The uncanny thing with that album is the spoken voice as if someone is sitting on the sofa just left of you, even though you know the speakers are in front!

HH, very similar to the levels I use, and my room is a similar size.

Typically 28-32 for recent non-classical 35 for older recordings (I also have two excessively compressed albums that need to be set at 25).
I typically use 40 - 48 for early / baroque / classical / orchestral music.
I have the volume limit set at 50.

Huge posted:

No quarter posted:

Huge,my hearing must be shot then...I also have a 272 with a 250dr,my speakers are 92 DB at  1 meter and 8 ohm.My normal listening level is 45 or 50 on the dial,when I have Internet radio playing as background music it is usually at 30 on the dial.When I am critical listening and a good song comes on that I want to "crank up"...I hit 60 on the dial,am i alone in this?

Actually it's more likely to be age related hearing loss on my part that makes me more sensitive to loudness!

I prefer to listen at 73-76dBA(slow) with occasional brief excursions to about 80dBA(slow).
These levels are quite low by most people's standards, but they suit my ears.  However, many recent CDs with the volume at '12:00' would give well over 95dBA(slow) with peaks well in excess of 103dBA(fast).

These are the kind of listening levels I prefer also as measured with an SPL app from my listening position.

As others have noted though different CDs/WAV files produce differing levels of loudness. Also some types of music encourages the wick to be turned up, while others the opposite is true. So listening levels are rather subjective and personal.

I would say that popping, as others have said, is a sign of hardware distress. Whether that is due to a mismatch in amp and speakers, or expecting too high a spl from what is domestic HiFi (as opposed to professional PA gear), is a moot point.

I attended a dealer demo about a year ago. Playing was a Naim system with a 300DR feeding a pair of Sopra 2s. The host gave the iPad to the audience to select some music on Tidal, forgetting of course there is a volume control on the app. One member of the audience wanted to hear how the system sounded with the wick turned up. It was too loud for my taste but not unbearable. Anyway, the 300DR had had enough of this abuse and promptly shut down. Thankfully a few minutes later after of cooling off it was up and running again with the iPad safely in the hands of our host. And this from a robust 300DR feeding reasonably efficient speakers. The listening room was rather large though which might be the explanation for the thermal overload.

Innocent Bystander posted:

As an aside Mike-B mentioned Roger Waters - what album? I actually found the 24/192 version of Amused to Death far inferior in sound quality to the ripped CD, and only play the latter  - and yes, there are places where the music makes you jump if listened to at a moderate average level - effective isn't it? I don't run for the door, though, and I have no fear for the speakers as I know they can handle it, and more (which they get to do occasionally!) The uncanny thing with that album is the spoken voice as if someone is sitting on the sofa just left of you, even though you know the speakers are in front!

.......  what album ??  whoops,  (note to self,  read the freekin words)   Yes = Amused to Death.    I had the original CD ripped & then after hearing the 2015 remix/remaster on a friends system I bought it in 24/192.   You didn't say if your CD is the remaster or original version, very different,  but I did not keep my CD rip.   My fear for my speakers is metaphorical.

My CD was the original release, ripped with dbpoweramp. And I bought the hi res remaster last year thinking it would becthe icing on the cake, but was very disappointed. I couldn't be bothered to compare side by side to pick out the difference, but IIRC it just sounded uninspiring or flat. After one play I didn't bother again, except once I cued the wrong one by mistake and it wasn't long before my ears told me there was something wrong, and I changed to the CD one.

since then I have seen others also say the high res one is worse, so your opposire reaction is interesting - makes me wonder if your CD rip was bad for some reason, or if there are some fake high res ones about.

I thought the LED Zeppelin High res versions were horrible.Just because it is high res does not mean it will sound good in my experience.

Innocent Bystander posted:

As an aside Mike-B mentioned Roger Waters  ...............   The uncanny thing with that album is the spoken voice as if someone is sitting on the sofa just left of you, even though you know the speakers are in front!

I think you have the CD release with ‘Q Sound’,  this is a 3-dimensional sound process designed to simulate a surround sound effect with 2 channel to give a similar effect to the SACD (5.1) release.  It wasn't carried forward into the 2015 remix/remaster. 

I think you are right Mike. Spoken voice is just outside the left edge of my left SBL with my 2015 vinyl.

Stu

I found the effect only happens if you sit dead centre - the seats of my sofa either side of me don't get that 'right beside you' voice. I recall Pink Floyd were experimenting with 'holographic' recording at the time of Final Cut, so I have assumed this was a progression from that - and that it was embedded in all of at least the original releases. 

I'm away now for a holiday- when I get back I'll see if my 192/24 version has the same effect.

Musky posted:

Hi

I'm new to this forum and would welcome advice please.....

My system comprises NDX,CDX,NAC 202,NAC 200, Flatcap , NAPSC and Allaes.

My system is great for me however when I require higher sound levels for parties a speaker makes a "popping" sound once the volume is turned to 12 o'clock.

My amp is rated 70w and my speakers 6 ohms 100 w so I was thinking about either upgrading the amp to NAC 250 (80 W) or upgrading my speakers to say 150w.

Any thoughts would be much appreciated.

Thanks

 

 

 

The "popping" sound are your ear drums breaking apart .

Huge posted:

No quarter posted:

Huge,my hearing must be shot then...I also have a 272 with a 250dr,my speakers are 92 DB at  1 meter and 8 ohm.My normal listening level is 45 or 50 on the dial,when I have Internet radio playing as background music it is usually at 30 on the dial.When I am critical listening and a good song comes on that I want to "crank up"...I hit 60 on the dial,am i alone in this?

Actually it's more likely to be age related hearing loss on my part that makes me more sensitive to loudness!

I prefer to listen at 73-76dBA(slow) with occasional brief excursions to about 80dBA(slow).
These levels are quite low by most people's standards, but they suit my ears.  However, many recent CDs with the volume at '12:00' would give well over 95dBA(slow) with peaks well in excess of 103dBA(fast).

85-92 fast is tops for me. THat equates to about 10:30 on the 32.5.

Mike-B posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

 The uncanny thing with that album is the spoken voice as if someone is sitting on the sofa just left of you, even though you know the speakers are in front!

I suspect holophonics are playing their part. PF started using them in the late 70s to augment their albums.

I do agree with another general consensus that some material has to have the right level to sound as it should due to its recorded particularities - rather like the focus view through old cameras - everything gets into sharp focus. To low or to high and it's askew.   Well known tracks have a memorised zone on the volume dial. Some tracks just won't get played past a certain time in the night for fear of the neighbours banging on the front door.

I tend to work on an album by album basis rather than track by track, but yes absolutely.

I think Bad Pollyanna at any time after 10PM would very much equate to Bad Neighbour!