The 7 Part Series on Autoimmune Diseases Everyone Should Take the Time to Watch

'Sunhorse Adaptogenic Herbs' 

I nearly died laughing.

Sorry,

G

I wonder if they'd help my colitis if I stuck them up my bottom?

Depends how big a 'sunhorse' is!  

With all this talk of scepticism, cynicism, pre-judging, commercial vested interests and 'snake oil', I initially thought the discussion must have been about ethernet cables, switches or power supplies!!

I'll get my coat!

Bruce Woodhouse posted:

Totemphile

You've bothered to write a detailed reply so I owe you the same courtesy despite my intentions to leave this alone. I was very grumpy and unwell yesterday. I will try to be more measured.

Like I said, enjoy the series but have an open mind, include in your reading not just the links that the people selling this story are giving to you. I ask nothing more than that. It is hardly surprising that the links they offer are supportive-although you may find there is a difference between supportive science papers and actual clinical testing. A world of difference. In my experience of these weblinks (and I've looked at lots in the past) they all reference each other and contain no rigorous clinical testing. I may be wrong this time but this has been my experience. If this approach works show me reproducible, randomised, independent trials. No drug gets licensed without-although food stuffs/probiotics etc do not have to pass this test.

I don't need reminding about the risks and failings of modern medicine, I've been working for a while and my wife was an oncologist. She's also had recurrent malignant disease herself. She's faced those decisions for her patients and herself. Her treatments will have killed a few, and helped a few. hopefully more on one side of the equation.

I spend lots of time talking to patients about the failings and risks of 'my' medicine. I also have discussions about alternative views; my patients not infrequently ask me to look into these things. LGS, candida hypersensitivity, dental amalgam, radiomagnetic hypersensitivity, multiple food allergy syndrome, morgellons, homeopathy, reflexology. Alternative views and modalities that challenge conventional thinking.

My cynicism is partly from experience, and also the juxtaposition of commercial interests selling a product. These alternative views pretend that modern medicine is the vested interest when they are direct selling you a product-which I find a bit rich. When promoting anything as a panacea (the first video suggests this) for such a wide range of frankly unrelated conditions it does stretch my credulity. I won't pretend otherwise. The addition of conspiracy theories 'the Stuff Doctors Are Not telling You' adds to that feeling.

Human health does not have magic bullets in my experience. If only-I would be extremely happy to be proved wrong. As I mentioned I have no vested interest other than protecting my patients from harm when exploring alternative medicines. Financial harms, the harms of false hope, direct harms of unlicensed and unregulated treatments to name just a few. 'My' medicine has risks; explicitly presented, calculated and measured.  It obviously does not have all the answers, indeed sometimes it has none. That is an honest approach in my view. It clearly leaves space for other ways of looking at things and maybe treatments but they must match up to the same scientific rigour in my view, and also have the same balanced information about effects and risks. That rarely comes from somebody who is selling it to you.

I genuinely hope you find the videos engaging. Something, somewhere helps someone, sometimes so who knows. this cynic will wait for the whole of medicine to be turned on its head-and then I can retire!

Best Wishes

Bruce

 

Bruce,

Thank you for your constructive reply, it is much appreciated. I am looking at this series as one piece of information (albeit there being lots of information presented) in a much larger puzzle. To be frank I know very little about the subject of autoimmune diseases and I am only at the beginning of forming a picture. Having watched the first episode it seems you were right in so far as one underlying theme is going to be "Leaky gut syndrome". Up until yesterday I had never heard of this term, so I am looking forward to finding out more about it. Like I said, I prefer to keep an open mind and this applies here too. Even if this hypothesis may be unproven, I am still interested in knowing more about it. How can I dismiss it, if I don't know anything about it? In the end I may or may not agree with a central hypothesis but this does not render everything that is being presented invalid or useless.

What I have gathered from the first episode is that diet and nutrition is going to play a significant part in what is going to be conveyed. This is certainly something that resonates with me and my own thinking. I strongly believe that dietary habits have a big influence on people's well being and in many cases are a root cause for illnesses. Diabetes certainly being one example. I also concur with the notion that Western medicine largely focuses on alleviating symptoms caused by illnesses, rather than addressing the root cause of the disease. In many ways Western medicine is only just beginning to accept the fact that the human body really needs to be considered as a whole in order to heal it. Other cultures' medical systems are innately wholistic and rely entirely on herbal and botanical remedies to achieve equal or better results than Western prescription drugs are able to offer in treating certain diseases. I cannot take people (I don't mean you) serious who dismiss natural remedies, they know nothing about medicine and treating illnesses and only display their ignorance. The benefits of Ayurvedic medicine in treating chronic or degenerative diseases are well documented. Same for Chinese medicine, it also has its strengths.

I strongly believe that everyone of us needs to take control of his or her own health and hence treatment in times of ill health. There are many who simply think all they need to do is visit a doctor, if they don't feel well and he or she will surely sort them out. Many people find that more often than not this approach doesn't work too well for them, especially if you are dealing with a complicated disease. I have had my share of complete misdiagnoses and my experience with western doctors so far has been that once it gets tricky you better take control of the process and options open to you, rather than rely blindly on what you are being told. Earlier this year the British Medical Journal published a report that Medical error is the third largest cause of death in the US after heart disease and cancer. That's from doctors who are supposed to heal you, not kill you. Now obviously human error is inevitable when doctors are performing complicated operations etc. but these numbers also include a fair share of people dying from standard medication. I don't know what the numbers for alternative medicine practitioners are but I am certain that if they had one patient dying in their practice the established medical profession and FDA would come running shutting their practice down. 

All in all the first episode certainly was interesting on various levels. No products advertised or pushed. The emphasis so far has been on there being a multitude of factors, which may lead to autoimmune diseases, including environmental pollution as consumed through the air, our water and food. There certainly doesn't seem to be a silver bullet remedy either. The approach is very much that individual factors have to be considered for every patient and that he or she has to make changes in his/her life. At times a bit over the top and self loving but nothing to put me off yet. 

Best

tp

Totemphile

Many, many people have been directly killed by alternative medical practitioners I can assure you, and lots of lesser harms too (not just by omission of conventional treatments such as misguided faith in alternative vaccines or cancer drugs). To name a few; colonic irrigation has a well recognised risk, so does cervical spine manipulation by chiropractic let along toxic reactions to herbal drugs. Some Chinese herbal treatments have contained potent steroids, and also arsenic.

The myth that if it is 'natural' it must be safe is a pervasive one. I use all sorts of herbally derived drugs. For example digitalis (foxglove), opium (poppy), colchicine (crocus ) and many chemotherapy drugs have plant origins let alone natural poisons like lead, laburnum etc. All physiologically active agents have risks.

There is a bit of a cultural difference here. In the U.K. prescription drugs  may not be marketed directly to the public. In the US it is very much the case that drug companies directly sell their products not just to physicians but patients too. They also heavily incentivise (bribe) physicians to use their products. This makes the doctor patient relationship very different in the US, and I am glad I do not work like this. I have absolutely no contact with pharmaceutical companies at work, I do not attend sponsored meetings or receive any hospitality etc. Direct mail goes unopened in the bin. I hope I have some neutrality discussing treatment options therefore.

We have some restrictions here on how non prescription medicines, vitamins, herbal compounds and probiotics may be sold. Health claims have to be reined in. 'May help boost your immune system' 'Traditionally used for arthritis' for example. This subtlety is lost on many of course.  Just click on the websites selling stuff such as for LGS and you will find lurid unqualified claims that would not be allowed here on US websites. 

Even here I get cross that those marketing alternative treatments have to pass much, much lower standards of safety, evidence of efficacy, information and packaging. They should be sold with information on potential risks and if they lack evidence of effect it should be clear. You can search online for evidence for example for paracetamol in back ache but you will find fair less honesty for the various non prescription items that line your pharmacy shelf. It is not in their interest to tell you it is rubbish either. Just ask them how much money they make from cough medicines!

I believe in choice, but it needs to be informed. If I claimed the things for stuff I prescribe without a balanced discussion in the same way many alternative medicines are promoted I would correctly be accused of negligence.

i understand the appetite for alternatives, I also see that desire for more holistic care. Much of our discussion here is about drugs but to describe modern medicine just as pills and surgery is a gross simplification.

i hope this is interesting to you. By the way Andrew Wakefield was the doc who convinced some of the profession, lots of the press and hundreds of thousands of people that MMR vaccines were linked with autism. He was a gastroenterologist. His research has been totally discredited as an 'elaborate fraud' and he was struck off. Amongst things such as fabrication of results and unethical methods he also failed to declare substantial conflicts of interest. He now makes huge amounts of money in the US discussing leaky gut syndrome amongst other things. He still has his followers. We are still dealing with the damage caused to a cohort of in-immunised children. The MMR hoax is a very dark passage in U.K. medicine.

The Wiki article on him is pretty solid and factual.

cheers Bruce (having his day off ruined by man-flu)

Bruce Woodhouse posted:

 

...

cheers Bruce (having his day off ruined by man-flu)

Men get Man 'flu'...
Women get bird 'flu'!  (e.g. A(H5N1) )

It's also been said that 50% of a GP's job is consoling the patient while the condition cures itself!

P.S. sorry to reduce your informative post to humour, but it just had to be done!  

The other 50% is paperwork...

Mind you, we did get 'Outstanding' from CQC, FWIW.

Bruce Woodhouse posted:

Totemphile

Many, many people have been directly killed by alternative medical practitioners I can assure you, and lots of lesser harms too (not just by omission of conventional treatments such as misguided faith in alternative vaccines or cancer drugs). To name a few; colonic irrigation has a well recognised risk, so does cervical spine manipulation by chiropractic let along toxic reactions to herbal drugs. Some Chinese herbal treatments have contained potent steroids, and also arsenic.

The myth that if it is 'natural' it must be safe is a pervasive one. I use all sorts of herbally derived drugs. For example digitalis (foxglove), opium (poppy), colchicine (crocus ) and many chemotherapy drugs have plant origins let alone natural poisons like lead, laburnum etc. All physiologically active agents have risks.

 

cheers Bruce (having his day off ruined by man-flu)

All well said, Bruce. I think that active pursuit and censure of, and prosecution of (if required) of the alternative medicine charlatans would be of tremendous benefit to the public. If a direct link between knowingly misleading promotion and adverse health effects (including death) can be proven, punishment should be appropriately administered.