speaker match for 282/200

I think your both getting confused,  it's simple... it's boll.............ocks......

Hungryhalibut posted:

Huge posted:

this is due to the magnetic shorting turn used to linearise the motor force

Are you making this up? It's not the impact of non-linearity in the multi-phase flange sprocket then?

Actually I'm not making it up.  It's a well known principle, used by a number of driver manufacturers to effectively extend the zone of linear AC flux response further toward the end of the pole pieces.  This is one of the things that distinguishes ATC's SL drivers.

Easy to poo-poo if someone is blissfully unaware...  The linearity and low distortion of ATC's drivers will be why Naim have been known to use them. And it is what makes their 3in mid dome unit one of, if not the, best in the world.

My apologies to Huge.....i was definitely blissfully unaware.. 

Huge posted:

Hungryhalibut posted:

Huge posted:

this is due to the magnetic shorting turn used to linearise the motor force

Are you making this up? It's not the impact of non-linearity in the multi-phase flange sprocket then?

Actually I'm not making it up.  It's a well known principle, used by a number of driver manufacturers to effectively extend the zone of linear AC flux response further toward the end of the pole pieces.  This is one of the things that distinguishes ATC's SL drivers.

Makes perfect sense to me ! No wonder they sound so bloody good . 

ryder. posted:

Folks, how does the SCM11 match up to the SCM19? Does the SCM11 retain all the attributes of the SCM19? I presume the SCM11 is a smaller version of the SCM19, and the main difference between the speakers is the SCM19 can play louder than the SCM11. Other than that, everything remains fairly similar.

Is my understanding correct, or flawed?

There are some great links on ATCs website ,  Jason Kennedy and HiFi Pig have compared the 11 and 19s both of which they love . Their consensus seems to be that the 19s are rather more grown up due to their larger volume and different Bass/Mid driver . Their is a great review on the 11s by HiFi Critic which feature Jon Honeyball's own pair . 

ryder. posted:

Folks, how does the SCM11 match up to the SCM19? Does the SCM11 retain all the attributes of the SCM19? I presume the SCM11 is a smaller version of the SCM19, and the main difference between the speakers is the SCM19 can play louder than the SCM11. Other than that, everything remains fairly similar.

Is my understanding correct, or flawed?

Well used to own the SCM12 - which was the same cabinet volume of the SCM11, but used the same pro mid/bass driver as now used in the SCM19. I would say there were several similarities - but the mids and vocals come across slightly fuller on the 19 and the tone slightly warmer on the 19

Huge, how do you connect your sub to your NAC?

I was thinking of get a 4 pin DIN to phono made up to take a feed from the SuperCapDR 'Additional Signal Output' socket 3.

S

I used to connect my PMC TLE1 subwoofer to the NAC 202 / NAP 200. At that time I was using a non-Naim PSU from Israel. The subwoofer was connected to one of the sockets of the non-Naim PSU. The setup worked out fine.

Since my system has been completely revamped not too long ago, I have the intention to hook up the sub to the Hicap DR but it appears that I have misplaced the 4-pin DIN cable and couldn't find it anywhere in the house.

Simon,

The NAC-N 272 has a phono pair pre-out as well as the 2 4pin DINs.  I connect a phono pair via short cables (not too much load on the output stage that way) to the miniDSP 2x4, and connect one of the miniDSP's output phonos to one of the low level inputs on the sub.

Your route is just as valid, but I'd still recommend using a miniDSP as a buffer amp, as an accurate crossover (single sided), and potentially for reducing the effect of the room resonances that will be excited by the sub.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Huge, how do you connect your sub to your NAC?

I was thinking of get a 4 pin DIN to phono made up to take a feed from the SuperCapDR 'Additional Signal Output' socket 3.

S

Simon, unless you intend to follow Huge down the DSP route, wouldn't you be better off using a sub with a high level input taken from the speaker terminals? This seems to be the Naim preferred method of connection, and seems to work well for me. 

When I ran my N-Sub off a Superuniti, I had the option of using a low level connection from the sub-out or pre-out, both of which worked well. My 282 doesn't have these options, and as I'm powering it from a 200DR, the high level connection is my only option. Cheaper cables than a long low level lead, and it fits in well with my KISS approach.

For me, the choice to run a sub is driven largely by aesthetics, as I really don't want a big pair of speakers dominating the room, whereas a sub 'hidden' behind the sofa doesn't really get noticed. I might even think about replacing my X2s with small standmounts at some point.

Chris, according to the FAQ, the high level connection is not Naim's preferred route for connecting a sub, that's a common misinterpretation of the FAQ.  The first 2 paragraphs of the relevant FAQ are:

For connection of subwoofers to amplifiers without a suitable (volume dependent) output.

If your amplifier system does not have a line level output which varies with volume (i.e. NOT a tape loop) you can still incorporate a subwoofer - providing this has a high level input.

For me there are three reasons for using a sub

1)  The position of the main speakers can be fully optimised for upper bass and midrange response without having to compromise the position to get a more even low-bass to mid-bass response.

2)  The sub can be positioned to optimise the evenness of the bass response without having to compromise the position to get an even midrange response.

3)  It enables a DSP to be used selectively on the lower bass range (leaving the critical midrange undisturbed), to ameliorate room resonances. This can then be done without detracting from the quality of the midrange (where the most critical and finest of the musical detail can be heard - or lost!).

ChrisSU posted:

For me, the choice to run a sub is driven largely by aesthetics, as I really don't want a big pair of speakers dominating the room, whereas a sub 'hidden' behind the sofa doesn't really get noticed. I might even think about replacing my X2s with small standmounts at some point.

Russel K Red 50s seem a good potential candidate for this.  If I need to replace my Spendor's I'd certainly have them on my shortlist.

Huge posted:

ChrisSU posted:

For me, the choice to run a sub is driven largely by aesthetics, as I really don't want a big pair of speakers dominating the room, whereas a sub 'hidden' behind the sofa doesn't really get noticed. I might even think about replacing my X2s with small standmounts at some point.

Russel K Red 50s seem a good potential candidate for this.  If I need to replace my Spendor's I'd certainly have them on my shortlist.

The 50s are certainly on my radar, although having only heard the 100s, I might stretch to them (in terms of size.) This is a future project for me though, I've spent enough in the last year as it is.

Huge posted:

Chris, according to the FAQ, the high level connection is not Naim's preferred route for connecting a sub, that's a common misinterpretation of the FAQ.  The first 2 paragraphs of the relevant FAQ are:

 

For connection of subwoofers to amplifiers without a suitable (volume dependent) output.

If your amplifier system does not have a line level output which varies with volume (i.e. NOT a tape loop) you can still incorporate a subwoofer - providing this has a high level input.

 

I think Naim, as ever, prefer to keep their opinions off the radar to some extent, on the basis that such decisions, as well as being subjective, are best explored by the individual, and it is the job of the dealer to help with this rather than Naim themselves. However, in addition to the N-Sub manual:

I don't currently know of any DSP system capable of +/-34V output swing (peak voltage for 70W / 8Ω).

Thanks all, the subwoofer I am considering has some DSP built in and offers speaker and line input - I think reading the above my instinct tells me to try the speaker connection first and from the loudspeakers themselves - keeping cable lengths for L+R the same

I agree that it's best to try both HL and LL connections.  A further point is that even the position of the sub can actually influence which is better!

The things that need balancing are:
Signal loss or interference in cables
Group delay (Preamp > Poweramp > Sub Amp > Sub adds an extra group delay at ELF)
Loading of the amplifier by the extra cables (if no buffer amp / line driver is used)

Simon, REW has a very useful room simulation mode that can help to establish candidate positions for the main speakers and the sub to get the most even response (and you can simulate the effect of group delays).  It certainly helped me.

Then the trick is to use REW to measure the room response, and use the DSP to trim the FR (FIR filters to offset the room resonances), crossover point and group delay settings.  It's not as hard as it sounds!

Finally try judging by ear (now that one's a lot harder than it sounds as the ear/brain combination isn't very discriminating at ELF).

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Thanks all, the subwoofer I am considering has some DSP built in and offers speaker and line input - I think reading the above my instinct tells me to try the speaker connection first and from the loudspeakers themselves - keeping cable lengths for L+R the same

I used Chord Sarsen for my speaker > sub connection, as it's only 3.5mm diameter and easily hidden, although I'm assured that any old bell wire is perfectly adequate for the purpose. Conveniently, my speaker terminals take both bananas and spades, so I use bananas on my main speaker cable and spades for the sub, meaning I can put them on and remove them easily. The idea of piggyback bananas seemed a bit of a messy alternative, and soldering both cables onto the same set of plugs is a bit inflexible. I wonder if it's possible to borrow a low level lead, then comparisons would be quite easy.

ChrisSU posted:

For me, the choice to run a sub is driven largely by aesthetics, as I really don't want a big pair of speakers dominating the room, whereas a sub 'hidden' behind the sofa doesn't really get noticed. I might even think about replacing my X2s with small standmounts at some point.

  

I am no expert on subs, but I would have thought that behind  the sofa (or anywhere else away from the main speakers) may adversely affect phase and timing unless electronically compensated?

That depends on the difference in group delay in the two electronic paths, compared to the acoustic delay in the two acoustic paths.

Depending on the difference in the delays that may even be the ideal position.  The best way to find out is to measure the system, then you can make adjustments with that knowledge.  In my case that same location gives the best phase / time integration.

The important thing is to consider the potential ramifications and not just shove behind the sofa because that's whether there's space.