Posh switch - another cause of Audiophilia nervosa?

Gandalf_fi posted:

I run HP 1810G-8 & Qnap NAS both with external linear power supply & seriously think that changing to Cisco with internal power supply makes no difference but please let me know if I should try one? Grounding with proper ethernet cabels is impacting as well.

https://commons.m.wikimedia.or...witch_HP_1810G-8.jpg

It may well be other network switches also provide a better performance in terms of reduced electrical noise and synchronisation jitter compared to some consumer devices - but it was specifically the Cisco Catalyst 2960 Fast Ethernet (100Mbps) switches where the improvement was noted and observed. This was both with internal SMPS and external PSU variants. I do believe the performance is down in some part to physical later implementation and the use of better clocks at the physical synchronisation layer, thereby reducing less jitter crosstalk into connected electronics. The 2960 supports PTP (Precision time protocol) and that works to some extent  between the physical layer and the digital TCP/IP stack and requires an accurate transport clock. So if you are looking at other switches you may want to confirm thier support for PTP too.

Regards

Simon

Thanks Simon, yes, clock is a key element in jitter reduction & could be the difference like MSB dac products have been proven. Maybe I need to test it...

ChrisSU posted:

DUPREE posted:

Be aware if this is an 1801 that the switch is only 10/100 and does not support gig. This is a router with an integrated switch and depending on licensing an integrated firewall. You can certainly use it as just a switch, but it does not support gigabit ethernet.

> On Jan 4, 2017, at 11:01 AM, Naim Audio Forums <alerts@hoop.la> wrote:
>

Neither do Naim streamers or the Cisco switch that is the subject of this thread. 100 is plenty for streaming music, and may even be preferable. 

Well it works ok but is really quite noisy due to it fan. Sounds like my old Xbox! It is in the same room as my hifi acting as the link between my AirPort Extreme and NDX. I will give it a proper test but not sure I can live with it long term!

 yes that is why i suggested the 8 port 2960 devices - they are silent - no fan. Forced cooling fans of higher density switches don't have make a din... you just don't need that power and cooling for a typical home setup

S

Someone told me that one of the advantages of using a separate switch is that it just does switchy things, which routers aren't so good at. So as yours is really a router and it has a fan, I'd suggest it is recycled in en environmentally friendly manner. The Extreme is a great router, now all you need is a proper switch. 

Yes fair point, but as my IT manager had a few of these router versions going spare I just thought I'd give it a try. I'll check out flea bay for a 'proper switch' though.

Pixies, to put in context, many larger commercial switches have routers built in, they are often called  'Layer 3 Switches'... this is absolutely fine and are the bed rock of much core infrastructure in data centres, factories and offices across the world. A switch without a router built in, typically used at the edges of infrastructure, are sometimes called 'Layer 2 Switches' so as to differentiate them routing switches. (In TCP/IP land switching - linking hosts within a network - occurs at layer 2 and routing - connecting networks together - occurs at layer 3 in the protocol stack)

its just in the home environment Layer 3 Switches ( and we are not taking consumer ISP broadband routers with 4 switchports built in) are probably an over kill and routers are quite processor intensive, so they will almost always have noisy forced cooling fans, again not making them ideally suited to the domestic environment.. 

But as I say just because it's an industrial switch I wouldn't assume it's going to 'sound' better. I suspect the support of PTP might however be a contributor.

Simon

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Pixies, to put in context, many larger commercial switches have routers built in, they are often called  'Layer 3 Switches'... this is absolutely fine and are the bed rock of much core infrastructure in data centres, factories and offices across the world. A switch without a router built in, typically used at the edges of infrastructure, are sometimes called 'Layer 2 Switches' so as to differentiate them routing switches. (In TCP/IP land switching - linking hosts within a network - occurs at layer 2 and routing - connecting networks together - occurs at layer 3 in the protocol stack)

its just in the home environment Layer 3 Switches ( and we are not taking consumer ISP broadband routers with 4 switchports built in) are probably an over kill and routers are quite processor intensive, so they will almost always have noisy forced cooling fans, again not making them ideally suited to the domestic environment.. 

But as I say just because it's an industrial switch I wouldn't assume it's going to 'sound' better. I suspect the support of PTP might however be a contributor.

Simon

Thanks Simon for taking the time to give a detailed explanation. Much appreciated.

Paul

Well, I was entrirely skeptical about replacing the cheapo netgear with the Cisco but blimey! I expected to have to listen hard to convince myself of some (possibly imagined) improvement...but not at all!

I've played a few albums and now on Ry's 'Borderline' which I know very well. It's a slightly toppy detailed recording which I'm hearing more into, with all the percussion and vocal harmonies nicely placed with their own space around them...delicious sounding.

This really reminds me of when I changed NACA5 to Tellurium Q Black - 'Cleaner' sounding, but not in a sterile way. The old 'veil removed' analogy comes to mind...really.

It may be that my network was substandard before of course, so others may not experience what I have.

Thanks for the recommendation.

Graeme

PS No more silly flashing numbered green lights now either!

My only nagging complaint with the 2960 in place is somewhat slower response time from the Naim app. Has anyone else experienced this?  

If your app is iOS & rev 5.1,  then I am tempted to blame the app.   I have an issue that I'm working on in the beta group,  the app has random response variables.

Yes, iOS (iPhone) and the most recent update to the Naim app.  

GraemeH posted:

Well, I was entrirely skeptical about replacing the cheapo netgear with the Cisco but blimey! I expected to have to listen hard to convince myself of some (possibly imagined) improvement...but not at all!

I've played a few albums and now on Ry's 'Borderline' which I know very well. It's a slightly toppy detailed recording which I'm hearing more into, with all the percussion and vocal harmonies nicely placed with their own space around them...delicious sounding.

This really reminds me of when I changed NACA5 to Tellurium Q Black - 'Cleaner' sounding, but not in a sterile way. The old 'veil removed' analogy comes to mind...really.

It may be that my network was substandard before of course, so others may not experience what I have.

Thanks for the recommendation.

Graeme

PS No more silly flashing numbered green lights now either!

Hi Graeme. That's good then - you'll see now why I described it as sounding 'nicer'. It's hard to say exactly what's different, but it certainly was for me, and you too. Have fun. 

Hi Graeme,

Early on in this experiment, I described the music as having "more scale, or authority" ........... a little overblown description perhaps, but it works for me.

I've since binned the original bargain 48 port Cisco, in favour of the 8 port fanless version, and all I can say is that this surely represents the best VFM upgrade ever.

The scale of improvement may well be dependent on existing cabling etc, but I'm pleased to read that you are now a happy Cisco Kid.

Describing these changes is always open to individual interpretation,  but in my recent playing with switches I found a big difference between my study/office Netgear FS105 & the hifi GS105 - 'FS' = 'Fast' = 10/100mps & remember Naim only need 100mps -  so what's caused this so obvious (to me) difference.   Along that line of thought,  I'm thinking the final result impression moving to Cisco 2960 is somewhat dependant on the switch its replacing.   So a question for Graeme,  what was the switch 'with silly flashing numbered green lights'   ???

NB;  my hifi system GS105 has been replaced with a Cisco SG110D,  another change for the better.  

[@mention:1566878603907884] It was a netgear £20 job.

G

GraemeH posted:

[@mention:1566878603907884] It was a netgear £20 job.

Yeah but wot model ???   was it a FS something or GS something.     'numbered' lights tell me it was a desktop   

Any good soul to advice me on a new switch which is similar to 2960? I can not get a used one 

Mike-B posted:

GraemeH posted:

[@mention:1566878603907884] It was a netgear £20 job.

Yeah but wot model ???   was it a FS something or GS something.     'numbered' lights tell me it was a desktop   

FS605v3 Mike.

G

.......   hmm  ??  sorta goes along with my SQ changes between Netgear FS (10/100mps) to a GS (gigabit)  then to a Cisco gigabit.  It shouldn't,  but it did.   

MMcCulloch posted:

My only nagging complaint with the 2960 in place is somewhat slower response time from the Naim app. Has anyone else experienced this?  

It's a bit quicker since putting in the 2960 here.

G

I switched (sorry) a Netgear GS105 v4 for a Cisco 2960 and noticed a rather nice improvement. Although the FS Netgear switches may be inferior to the GS models, my experience is that there is still an improvement to be had from moving from a 'GS' Netgear Gigabit switch to a Cisco 2960 switch.

Other systems and ears may beg to differ of course.

MMcCulloch posted:

My only nagging complaint with the 2960 in place is somewhat slower response time from the Naim app. Has anyone else experienced this?  

I noticed this when I first put it in but - and this may sound silly - it has speeded up and is now faster than when I had the Netgear. Maybe there is some sort of internal stuff going on. 

Hello Simon !

It's Peder from Sweden.I must thank you for the recommendations of the Cisco 2960,I have write

about it in a Swedish Naim/Linn-forum.

I have also told them if they want to read more of tecnical questions and other things about the Cisco,look for your inputs on the Naimforum.

A forum-member in Sweden ask me one thing,and I must ask/take the question to you.He said to me that

the Cisco WS-C2960-8TC-L are in at least 3 versions,called V01,V02 and V03 and he ask me what

version who is best.

Have you any ide about that,I promised him to take the question to you.

Ones again,thank's for all you have write about the Cisco,I have learned a lot,and I promised you,I have

read every word :-). And a Love my Cisco-switch 2960.

Best regards

Peder

MMcCulloch posted:

My only nagging complaint with the 2960 in place is somewhat slower response time from the Naim app. Has anyone else experienced this?  

It should be quicker, or at worst the same. Was the switch put to factory defaults when you bought it?

if you know how to log onto the switch I can give you some code to make the switch FASTER for UPnP discovery, so in your Naim app media server devices almost instantaneously appear (I am not talking the spinning circle for your app to connect to your streamer .. that is App/iOS related)

Thats the beauty of this devices, not only do they better for many, but you can optimise them to support the applications on your network... which is what managed devices are all about.. but you do need a bit of IT savvy.