Why do you post on the Naim forum?

Hook for deputy assistant moderator 

Best, Chris

Originally Posted by Christopher_M:

Hi Chris -

You mean kind of like Barney Fife as Deputy Sheriff?   

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtsvsLFYYSg

For those of you overseas who did not grow up with "The Andy Griffith Show", Barn was the epitome of false bravado.  Andy, the sheriff and Barn's cousin, tolerated his incompetence only because their little town of Mayberry was virtually crime-free.  In fact, he made Barney keep his one bullet in his shirt pocket so he wouldn't himself or others.   I can only hope Richard is as equally tolerant of my interest in finding out what makes this forum tick!

This comedy show is remembered fondly by millions of people and, believe it or not, was the source of many of my early life lessons!  The Youtube link above is one of hundreds, so be warned, it is very easy to kill an hour or two watching (or re-watching) these 50+ year old clips!

Hook

An inevitable part of it, which dulls each of us to a different extent is "seen it all before" syndrome.  After a number of years, answering the same questions, having the same arguments, seeing the never ending repeated posts and behaviour of successive generations of new members trading the same path  that thousands have trudged down, there comes a point where one mentally detaches.

I suppose my greater than usual activity over the past year was to do with my interest in and acquisition of streaming stuff. I have found some of the posts to be highly informative and interesting. Comparatively new vista for Naim though this might be, it's interesting that knowledge, experience, areas of debate and the cohort of detractors all present in exactly the same way and with the substitution of strategic words and sentences, we could be talking about a CDP, amp or PS.

Right now I'm interested in internet radio and the eventual emergence of a 555 or S level streamer. I don't know of a better place to get advanced information from. And speculation, rumor development and critical evaluation of hardware that does not physically exist is hugely entertaining.

Thanks Hook, lots of fun there with those clips. 

My comment was based on your deft, diplomatic, inclusive responses to Officer DBL and DaveBk. A pleasure to read here.

Best, Chris

Hook

Great post, that has sparked a very interesting thread....

For those of us relatively new to the Forum you are helping us by giving some insight, both to the past but also to what might drive the future of this place.

Jeff

'You must become the change you wish to see' (as Gandhi said)

I agree with Bruce. Tis no good banging on about tedious threads if one posts threads about growing rhubarb. It is up to Mick to try to raise the bar. Personally I note the threads that tend to do well concern material 'things' and I would think a thread where we get to post photos of our respective fridges

 would be well received (or fountain pens).

I miss Mick's posts too - I rarely ever agree with him but that is part of the charm of this place - we are a mixed bag but we remain relatively civilised for most of the time. The forum remains an excellent place to get sound advice (pun intended) on a variety of subjects and is an excellent resource imo. Long may it continue.

Guys -

Thanks so much for your thoughts!   In reply to recent posts:

* Thanks so much to Chris and Jeff for your kind words!

* Harry is, as usual, spot on:  nothing fuels this forum like speculation over new product announcements!

* +1 to Jim's post.  Mick Parry was very active when I first joined the forum, and was often in the middle of a passionate debate.   Blunt?   Well, sure.   But this forum needs diversity not only in terms of new versus old members, but also of different personality types.   Up to you Mick, but I too would enjoy reading more of your contrarian views!

* And finally, a big thank you to Sniper for his wonderful post.  Sniper and I have had a mild tiff or two in the past, but hopefully there are no hard feelings...certainly none on my end!   The Gandhi quote was a great find....and it says it all.

I am learning a lot from this thread, and my gut tells me we still have some runway left.  I liked Jeff's comment, and I encourage any and all thoughts on the future of this forum.   After all, that is pretty much what we are talking about here...

Hook

PS - Brought home an Apple TV ($99 USD) last night.  In minutes, I was streaming Spotify from my iPad via Airplay to the ATV, and then OptiChord out to the DAC.  Somehow settled on the Dead's "Dick's Picks #11", which included a 30 minute+ version of "Dark Star" from this very well recorded 1972 show.   I was pleasantly surprised by the ATV's sound quality -- perfectly listenable! -- and plenty good enough for my goal of being able to surf and try new CD's.  Was a little worried what 16/48 upsampling would do to a 320kbps MP3 stream, but that concern was unfounded.   Last thing I vaguely remember before falling asleep was pressing "place order".....

My son popped in two hours ago and said dad?

 What's the name of that Bob Dylan album you used to play in the mornings to get us out of bed for breakfast when we were little?

The one with the track about  ALL THE TIRED HORSES?

munch.

Hi Hook. 

Excellent thread topic!

Why do I contribute? Well, I don't much these days. Few topics interest me which is not so much of a surprise when one has been a member as long as I have. When I do contribute, often it is because I want to add a contrary or thought provoking view. I think the forum needs that and many of my friends have different views too [which I often disagree with] but I'd rather them be themselves and impart their perspective. I also like to keep up with the many of friends or acquaintances that I know directly because of this forum and meet with socially regularly with too. That is the best reason for this forum IME.

Back in what I remember and regard as the heyday of the forum, discussion was different, more closely related with Naims traditionally perceived virtues. It feels to me that the newer product now attracts a broader range of owners who's preferences or goals are different and therefore areas I do not have a lot of personal knowledge in.

So, more of why I don't contribute to the forum, sorry!

Julian

I am fairly new to this forum, having had a couple of bad experiences with two others (who I won't name, as that would be inappropriate) - and I must say that this is the best forum by far.  People treat others with respect, and the quality of the discussions is much higher.  People here are generally better-educated and more articulate and owning Naim equipment indicates they have good taste!

I'm afraid that the hi-fi fraternity has acquired a bad image over the last few years with its collective "old git" persona.  I remember back in the 1980s, when I was young, hi-fi was hip and trendy.  Since then, it has become a minority interest and it's hard to connect with like-minded people.  The Naim forum gives me the chance to do just that.

Dave

Thanks for the thoughtful post Julian! 

Upon re-reading my reply to Munch, I now realize I should have said something differently, or at least elaborated a bit.    While I "hoped to elicit positive comments" like Sniper's -- the forum is what we make it, etc. -- I was equally hoping to hear new ideas, or constructive criticisms, that might make this forum a better place going forward.

First of all, I agree that nothing is forever.  After only three years, I too am finding myself bored by some of the repetitive, introductory topics.  You are right -- it is inevitable.

I was fascinated by your comment about how discussions used to be "more closely related with Naim's traditionally perceived virtues".  When you have a moment, can you please expand on that?   I have a feeling you are on to something important here, and maybe if you provide some examples -- fond memories perhaps? -- it would help me and others to understand how this place has changed...and perhaps how it could be improved.

I think that Naim would like us to believe that they have remained true to the set of core values that your namesake established so many years ago.   Am wondering:  if the forum's discussions no longer reflect those virtues, then perhaps they are simply mirroring a new reality.  Perhaps they really have changed.   I'll start it off by reminding folks new to Naim that at the time Mr. Vereker came on the scene in the early 70's, the consensus was that all amps sounded the same!   He and Ivor were the original contrarians!

And yours is not the first post to suggest that there simply is not enough contrarian thinking happening today on the forum.  I agree.  It is so easy to fall into the trap of repeating conventional wisdom, rather than making the effort to come up with an original thought.   I am as guilty as anyone of lazily +1'ing....

But I would also hate to see this place turn into another PFM, where anyone who claims to hear the benefit of a audio upgrade is immediately told a dozen times to go look up the meaning of buyer bias and placebo effect!   Talk about boring!

Hook

PS - I wonder what would happen if the forum categories were different?   Here's another question for everyone:  If you were building this forum from scratch, what would you do different?   Would it still be HiFi Corner, Streaming Audio, etc., or is there a better way to organize the topics so that people can more easily spend more time on only what's of interest to them?

I definitely feel a sense of community here, and have met up with forum members at a few concerts.

Although I joined to find answers to a technical issue with a piece of Naim equipment, I rarely visit the Hi-fi part of the forum. The Music, Padded Cell and Home Theatre sections I frequent a lot.

I intensely dislike the music press, but here I find people who have positive things to say about a wide range of music without an overriding sense of ego or fashion. To a lesser extent the same for film and TV. So for me it is far more a resource for information about the arts rather than a technical resource.

Of course I feel good when posts receive a positive reaction, but also like some of the arguments that the forum used to have, and Mick I do miss locking horns now and again over the odd post.

Becoming a father has meant less time for posting, and I post on Facebook for friends and family who want to keep up with my personal life.

If the forum closed I would have mixed views, I like the community here, but find the limitations of the forum rules and yes the effects the Hoopla change makes the forum quite limiting. If it shut, perhaps people would move on mass to somewhere less limiting, but probably not.

Good thread Hook.

Hi Dave -

You make some really good points.  

I am sad to say that, among my friends and colleagues, I can count on two fingers the number of fellow audio enthusiasts.   But every time I log onto this forum, like you, I am among hundreds of like-minded individuals from all over the world!   How cool is that?

For years, it has felt like stereo is dying out.   Shops closing.   Sales dropping.   In fact, it seemed like the entire concept of listening to music -- and I mean really listening to music -- was also dying out.   Maybe some of that is true, but I also think I was probably looking at the world through an old git's eyes...  

I had a conversation with my 13 year-old grandnephew a while back, and he helped me to understand how the video game had become the new book.   Kids still enjoy reading, but many prefer now to do so within the context of a more active, dynamic experience.   He showed me how much reading and studying was necessary just to begin participating in some of these online multi-user virtual worlds.  It was not trivial at all!

I also think kids today face a dramatically more complex and competitive world than we did growing up.  Money is so very tight.   They have neither the time, nor the budget, to do more than some iPod'ing on the go.    I used to think of the iPod as the evil bane of high sound quality, but am now understanding how wonderful it is that even people of modest means can still have access to such a wide range of music.   Someday, a lot of those same kids will have the income, and the leisure time, to discover what Naim is all about.  At least I hope so.

Hook

PS - I am fortunate to have half a dozen real live record shops within easy driving distance.   It has been fun to see their vinyl sections expanding of late.   Even more encouraging has been seeing those isles dominated by people less than half my age.  A few weeks back, a twentyish-year old fellow next to me picked out what looked to be a mid-eighties reissue of The Kink's "Arthur".  I said "That's a cool record", and he looked back up at me and replied "You know it's a concept album, right?".  

Dear Hook,

I don't think really attentive music listening is dying out at all. Quite the reverse really. If it were then where would the audiences for the BBC Proms come from. The great thing about the Proms audience is that it is so young! Compare it to the middle aged and elderly regular winter audience in the Royal Festival Hall, and you can soon see that the future winter season audience is already there in the making at the BBC Proms. 

As for the iPod - however frustrating it can be that someone using one my walk straight into you on the pavement - it is clearly capable of drawing the whole attention of the listener in just as immersive a way as a great home replay set can. so much so that the enjoyment of the music via an iPod often means that the wearer/listener is oblivious to his or her surroundings. I imagine that as time goes by many of the current iPod generation will as much become high end replay purchasers as the young Proms audience will become regular winter season attenders of concerts.

I think the situation is different to thirty years ago, but certainly not a cause for pessimism - either for the future of live music, or high quality replay. I imagine that the current crop of new or newish Naim pieces is designed quite as much to capture some from the iPod generation as it is designed to fit in with the demands of Naim's existing market base. Everything moves on, and I can see nothing retrograde in Naim's current diverse range of replay sources in the digital domain compared to their production of older models of CD players and TT accesories ...

The amplifiers remain - in my view - without peer. But that is my reaction. Obviously the market is highly competitive, and you can see why Naim wanted to expand into digital streaming, ripping and so forth ... 

It is good to see the company looking forward in changing times, and I think that they will succeed, so long as they refuse to simply sit on their laurels of past glories, but extend into new products to suit the modern market. Sometimes this might worry the traditionalists, but if the company gradually became old fashioned, it would no longer be there after a while and so the fantastic service in restoring older and well loved pieces to original factory spec would also go. We have not only to embrace change, but try to see the good in it.

ATB from George

Hello Hook

Is it a social networking thing?  

Easy ones first, eh? Yes it most definitely is a social network. I think if they had just called it Forum rather than The Forum then it could have been much bigger. 

Do you feel a sense of community here?

Yes I suppose that is true; it is a community of people who like listening to music mostly an a few who like trying out things with hi-fi equipment and sometimes computers. 

Do you enjoy writing? 

I do it for a living in a way, but the content here is different from what I do in my day job, which is all about computers - oh come to think of it there is not that much difference. 

Does posting give you an opportunity to organise your thoughts?

Not really, I'm totally disorganised - I never pass the same twice and never take my own advice.

Does it make you feel good to offer advice, and to help other people solve their problems?

It was Lou Reed who sang "There are problems in these times ... and none of them are mine" and Alice Cooper who ended his election song by singing "And if I am elected, I promise the formation of a new party; A third party, the Wild Party! I know we have problems, We got problems right here in Central City, We have problems on the North, South, East and West, New York City, Saint Louis, Philadelphia, Los Angeles, Detroit, Chicago, Everybody has problems, And personally, I don't care". Well I'm not totally in sync with Vince on that, but I like to think I have in some small way helped somebody, somewhere, some time, but I'm not sure I ever have. I think I've probably upset more people than I've helped; not intentionally, as I'm a totally inoffensive anonymous dude who once spoke out against the practices of a software giant and learned it was safer not to - I'd rather be happy than right. However, everybody who converts to Apple or Linux makes me feel better so it is good to hear many forum members have done just that - if I've helped then perhaps that is the best I can hope for.   

Is it an ego thing?  

I post therefore I am

Do you feel proud when your posts are well received by others?

I'll let you know if it ever happens.

Do you see the forum primarily as a technical resource?

Mike-B, Richard and Adam and Phil Harris are excellent sources of technical information and there are many useful contributions in this area. When it comes to music; this forum has one of the most knowledgeable contributors I have had the pleasure of reading: Gary Shaw - amazing encyclopaedic knowledge, with apologies to other contributors, his are the posts I've learned most from. 

Does the forum mean something different to you today than it did in previous years? 

It has become more computer orientated, which I don't mind, but music is a much greater interest for me. I'm glad there are less intellectual debates. I'd sooner discuss how much snow is falling than enter in to a debate. People almost never change their minds and nearly all discussions/debates (not just hereon) degenerate in to people trying to prove a point. I'm probably as guilty as anybody, but I've no real interest in gloom and doom. I have enough of that at work (business is boring). 

Please, no more Hoop.la bashing ... 

Aw, not even a little bit ... 

For those of you who used to post regularly, but now only post infrequently (or not at all, but maybe still check in once in a while), what made you decide to stop contributing? 

Often thought of stopping ... probably will. There seems a lack of interest in the musical era I come from, which is fair. Times change, but I'm caught in dream. What we really need is more Pink Floyd or Steely Dan threads ( - no, it was a joke, honest, I didn't mean it). Nice threads about Caravan (not the type the often blocks the M5). 

Did some life event place new and unforeseen demands on your time? 

Not that I can think of - the cricket has improved (TMS playing through the UQ right now - Ian Bell superstar), but the Tractor Boys are still mid-table and we've signed Lee Bowyer (perhaps he is reformed character). 

Or did you just grow tired of discussing music?

A man who is tired of music is tired of life; there is always a new Half Man Half Biscuit masterpiece just around the corner 

Or did you just grow tired of discussing audio and/or the Naim brand?

When it comes to audio, I doubt I'll tire of the Naim brand - great company who make super products and provide me with excellent customer service and they are local. Anything I can do to say to somebody - forget that cheap stuff from you know where - and listen to this - is something I'll always continue.   

Are you now spending your time on other forums, or did you decide that the whole idea of online community was a waste of time?

I do use other fora, I have to for my work, but they are usually closed groups. I don't contribute to any other open fora. 

Lastly, I know that a bunch of you guys in the UK are friends with each other in real life.  What about the people you only trade posts with?  If the forum was shut down tomorrow, would you miss any of your "pen pals"?

I know a few forum members - munch is a great guy. Have met J.N., Richard L, John H, Norman - all really terrific people and, of course, the excellent Peter (superb dealer who has ensured my system is as good as it can be). Of those I've not met: of course, I'd miss your contributions: Hook. I've never been to the USA or Canada, but I love so much of the music that comes from North America, so it is always good to read your thoughts. That is a great looking system that you have and I bet it sounds as good as it looks. The forum is full of interesting views from people all of over the world, that has to be a good thing. 

By the way Mick P is great bloke and sadly missed contributor; Naim adoration apart, I don't agree with much he says, but I still used to enjoy his posts. I also hope George keeps the Broadband and stays on; his views are always interesting; I agree with everything he says in his post above.

All the best, Guy 

I agree with what George says, Naim must remain modern and innovative and the product will change as a result. The Naim sound has improved and as these new products come, the traditional virtues have been built upon with others. Sure this has made the product better for all but it has also attracted a new range of customers who seem to listen in a different way to the way I do.

So, am I a traditionalist [provoked by Georges comment], perhaps, but not completely. I love many of the newer products and, indeed, want some of them in my living room; maybe not for the same reasons that others do though!

When I say about Naims traditional virtues, I mean that products and systems were judged largely by flat earth qualities in the same way that, say, the Lejonklou forum still only focuses debate based on the tune method of evaluating a product. IME of hifi ownership, I have found that flat earth assessment [which arguably could be said to include the tune method] of product to be largely the most successful evaluation method for me. Many of the posts I read now seem to have discussion about traditional round earth qualities e.g. quantative assessment, imaging, space, warmth, voicing etc.., which, for me, are of lesser, little or no importance.

Coming back to Georges contribution above, as can be seen by his recent "mono" thread, his playback preferences are far more extreme [or hair shirt] than mine, and he will slate my beloved LP12 given the opportunity, in fact, not just the LP12 but the vinyl medium as a whole, however, he is my [too distant] friend and I feel this place is a far better for his insight and I have some sympathy towards his mono sentiment too!

Regarding forum rooms, if the streaming room didn't have topics regularly distracted by the surrounding issues of ripping, storage and other stuff but concentrated on the discussion of the products, I think it would be better off in the main room. At the end of the day, its all still music reproduction. 

Julian

Dear Guy,

I might have weighed the BB thing seriously enough to decline an extension of the BB contract for another twelve months. This is reasonable as the discount for being tied in for a year is rather less than the cost of withdrawing early. As it is I can cancel with a month of notice. I don't intend to as things are in terms of my residence or the way the Forum is, frustrating though it is sometimes. I have loaded Chrome on just to engage with the Forum!. For sure the Thoughts on Stereo, and New Carlton Thread have run their courses - run them in classic style - and they are probably my last major thread initiations, but if something interesting [for Forum discussion] strikes me then who knows? And I enjoy reading and sometimes replying to a nice thread like this. I do find there a firm limits to what I could usefully contribute on World Affairs, for though I have strong views on these things, it is hard to get a discussion going that is not trolled sometimes. I would hate to get into a fatuous discussion on Libya, or the recent catastrophe in Norway. In such topics personal feeling are very easy trample on ...

Like you, I miss Mick Parry, though I would not join any other Forum just to read his words. I am used to the older members here, and am not willing to learn a whole new set of posters now, as really I have reached enough understanding of replay after more than ten years since my first experience of Naim to know that my mind is set on the subject.

My dream set would still be based on 552/300, probably in mono onto a Quad ESL 57 or 63. I'd have iTunes, a premium DAC, and top-line tuner. That is all I could ever wish for, but strangely, I find even the most minimalist replay totally enjoyable provided it avoids a great sense of stereo or is too dynamic in the bass-lines. Really that has me immediately worrying that I am annoying others, rather than enjoying the music - quite happy that it remains a private pleasure, not even remotely likely to offend others. I have no problem with imperfect rendering of timbre, so long as the musical range of expressive timbres is rendered "as a range." All I want is articulacy, and lucid musical balances, and just enough power not to peak out on the female voice or large choir. A wide dynamic range is a hindrance for me when allied to powerful bass presentation. Nowadays my wishes are easily met ... not so twenty or thirty years ago though. 

ATB from George

PS : Dear Julian, As for LP replay, I cannot understand it persisting, but then it barely meets one real wish that I have in replay, and that is the uninterrupted play of whole pieces that are longer than an LP side or even a CD. That is where the continuous play right through a long piece of music that iTunes brings is such a modern blessing for me! I can understand that this almost primary consider for me is not one that is all that widely shared.

Guy -

What a post!  A perfect blend of humor, satire and insight.

Seriously Guy, I do enjoy your writing style.   You do such a good job of disarming your readers with self-deprecating humor, and then, before we realize it, we're nodding our heads up and down and agreeing with everything you have to say!   It is clear why you can earn a living from your keyboard.

I'll accept what you say about Munch.  Am sure he is a good guy in real life.   Unfortunately, my only view of him has been through this forum, and all I've ever gotten from him is a cold shoulder.   Oh well, no big deal.   Besides, it's not like he's the only one here who I annoy.

Hook

naim forum..............

making friends with people who share a love of music and seek to improve the replay

learning abut new music, sharing some of my likes (and dislikes)

being generally gobsmaked by some of the kindness shown to me by forum members, Fred - one of his CDs, ROFT a Rega phono stage, sjust - a stamp, but a special one from Finland which kept the dream of Santa alive for one more year chez Sloop

reading threads that caused me to obsessively concentrate on the next upgrade to the detriment of music

getting great advice about many varied topics from holidays to how best to clean a car

getting flamed the odd time (Rue Rory")

feeling like it's the end of school or college and we are now going our own separate ways, a few friends will be kept but the rooms will be occupied by new younger pople with different interests

..........sadly

SJB

Hook,

I feel i must reply.

The Bob Dylan cover and post was a half page post by me, giving  what i thought was a good round up of why i have loved this forum over the many years since it started.

When i clicked on it,Hooplar sent most of it into SPACE.

So i will try again with a short one?

I have looked in this place since it started,Only started to post though from 2006.

In the time  since i started looking in ?I have seen many many leave.

Since i started posting i have made many many great friends on here,and have been to some of there homes and listened to their systems and met their familys/Pets and had a few great meals,

A few forum members have been to my home for a day/night weekend out, Listen and a curry or two over the last few years.

I have put together a forum members get together or two and got Paul into gear for The Naim Forum members best ever BBQ at the Naim Factory a couple of years ago.

I used to post a lot more than i do now and late into the night,

I dont sleep much.

Music is what its all about at the end of the day, and the people on here love of it.

You do look a bit like Andy off little Britan.

Stu

Well, we both show about the same amount of forehead.  

And we both wear pretty stylish spectacles. 

The cut of the jaw.  The piercing, cold stare. 

Yes, I agree -- Andy and I could have been separated at birth. 

Thanks Stu.   

And sorry for the misunderstanding.   F'ing Hoop.la strikes again!  

Hook

PS - Have enjoyed reading your posts over the last 3 years, and at all hours.  I don't sleep much either.  Midnight to 5am on a good night, and never straight though.  Must be all my worrying about the future of the forum...   

I started looking at the forum in the hope of getting advice from people with a wider range of Naim exposure than myself.

Some of the earllier technical advice from people like Vuk was good. Most of it was highly opinionated rubbish, but nonetheless entertaining. Some was pure entertainment (eg stallion).

For a while, the padded cell provided highly charged and entertaining discussion. Most of it was good-natured and i'm sure most of us just allowed the occasional bit of flame thowing to pass over as nothing more than hot air. It was always interesting and educational to see other's points of view, However, I don't recall anybody admitting to changing their point of view as a result of any discussion. Nowadays, it hardly seems worth the effort. Very few posts live for long and ISTM that if two people disagree over some trivia, one of then goes crying to the Headmaster (sorry Administrator) before announcing to the world that he is leaving the Forum - yet again!

During my time here, I have met a fair number of memebrs and visited a few to hear their systems, from as near as Reading and Swindon to as far as Western Canada.

I suppose we all live in hope. Including the hope that the Forum will one day come alive again.

Meanwhile I shall continue to look in, and contribute and keep that hope alive.

Cheers

Don