Why do you post on the Naim forum?

Crying foul and grandstanding was a weekly, sometimes daily occurrence. Your memory has gone all selective on you Don.

Dear Harry,

You are quite correct. the place was horrendously rough before Adam sorted it out, quite a few years ago now. If you were not "one of the boys" - sometimes also known as a Naim sheep - then you could well be roundly attacked on any level  by the regulars. Strangely, thogh I was never one of the old timers in those days, somehow my contributions tended to fall beneath the Forum Mafia RADAR! I am sure that many were disinclined to post at all in the days of Vuk and Stallion/Marco, which is no slur on these personalities but rather that they were prominent posters in that era, and their departure more or less coincided with the civilising of the Forum..

ATB from George

Harry, George,

I agree, but that happened ages ago - when middle-age set in. Middle-age being that time when a man's broad mind and narrow waist get changed over.

Even now, with the mild-mannered membership, the level of debate on this forum can surpass that of the House of Commons on a bad day. IMHO, of course.

Cheers

Don

Thanks very much to everyone for your posts.  I appreciated hearing what other people think of this forum, and it was interesting for me to compare those thoughts with my own.

Curious how the early days of the forum are remembered fondly by some, but not so much by others.   Personally, I like the current demeanor of this place.   I am glad that one can ask a question about cables without getting a dozen "it's all in your head" replies.   I am glad that a majority of people seem to have any open mind about what is possible with network playback, and that the "bits are bits" remarks are kept to a minimum.   I am glad that this place has a balance of science and art, of left brain and right brain, and of logic and emotion.   Most of all, I like that this place offers a level of respect for all, and a special concern for new members who are simply trying to figure stuff out.   This may not be unique to the Naim forum, but I think it is important, and gives this place an overall welcoming, inclusive feeling.

Within this very civil framework however, there are still plenty of opportunities for spirited debate!   Maybe it's time for another flat versus round earth discussion?   Would be interesting to see if that topic can still produce strong feelings!

Overall, I think that the mod restrictions on discussion topics here are pretty minimal.   Other than DIY and 3rd-party PS's (which Naim has declared a form of DIY), I have not seen much if anything else (other than solicitations and personal insults) that gets suppressed.   IMO, the PFM criticisms of this place on those grounds are way overblown.

I post on the Naim forum because I think it is fun.   It gives me a chance to wake my brain up early in the morning, before heading off to work.   It gives a chance late at night to think more philosophically about our wonderful hobby.   I laughed at George's "Johnny No Mates" comment, but for me, this is pretty much true when it comes to all things audio!   I am way more in to this hobby than my friends, so this place offers me the best chance I've found for connecting with others that have a similar level of interest in, and passion for, the playback of music.

If this place were shut down tomorrow, I would miss it very much.   While I cannot honestly say that I think of other members as "friends" in the traditional sense of the word, I will say that I have developed a great fondness for the writing of a number of other members, and I really enjoy posts where the writer gives us a glimpse into their lives.   To all the folks who are trying to make this place more interesting and enjoyable, I thank you very much!

Good ol' Gandhi was right. This forum will continue to be whatever we (and its future members) choose to make of it.   On balance, I am way more positive than negative about this forum's future.   But one thing seems certain -- over time, the membership and the areas of common interest will continue to change.   And hopefully, most of us will view this change as a good thing.

ATB....over and out.

Hook

"I am glad that one can ask a question about cables without getting a dozen "it's all in your head" replies."

I'm surprised you said this. There's some people on here, who go out their way to be rude and obnoxious in an underlying way, and they dominate this forum. By doing so they're allowed to ruin the reputation of Naim's products and churn out wrong advice to newbies. Adam Meredith used one-liners to great effect to put them in their place, but under recent moderation, they're simply allowed to have the old "freedom of speech" right. If threads get out of hand, either individual posts should be removed or a representative of Naim should step in to put their view. For Naim to sit back and watch a newbie be given wrong advice is ridiculous. I think it's fairly obvious that most people with any experience have got totally bored with trying put their point forward or fight a battle with one arm tied behind their back. A little heated debate and gentle teasing is what makes a forum interesting.

I don't think the new forum design helps. I was very surprised to see Naim lock the "forum feedback" thread, when it's customers hadn't finished what they were saying and was even more surprised to read the Naim statement that "everything is fine and all stats are up!"  What stats have Naim been looking at? This forum has died.    

Principally; , to find the best, most cost-effective, energy-efficient way to integrate my 'Qute to storage, rip, store and organise my music on said digital media platform. Though I'm from a comms background, I'm not up on music streaming over LAN or anything other than casual listening on common media players on PC.

Generally for the same reason one engages in communication using any communication medium.

I think criticisms of moderation depend on which part of the forum you frequent the most.

I think for the Hi-fi Corner in the forum the moderation is fine (from what I have seen), however for the Music Room it seems heavy handed.

People often discuss the quality of recordings, and different pressings, as well as many out of print albums, but if you wish to give someone a spare copy or direct someone to something they are seeking it is against the rules.

The same goes for concert tickets. I have been in the situation where someone has dropped out of attending a concert and I would happily have given the ticket to someone on the forum, but as such offers in threads are deleted immediately and the poster put on moderation, the tickets end up being sold to touts or simply thrown away. In effect Naim is encouraging touts, although personally I would rather throw a ticket away than sell it to a tout.

To me applying a moderation that may be suitable for the Hi-fi Corner to the Music Room where Naim have little or no involvement (their label artists excluded) makes no sense.

Perhaps I should move to another forum for that reason, but have not found one that on balance was as enjoyable as this one, and starting a new forum has the problem that without passing a tipping point where there are enough regular posters, and I would suspect that three figures for members is the minimum tipping point, the forum dies after a couple of weeks of initial interest.

Naim agreed to the changes for reasons other than the forum itself.  None of the changes had anything to do with making this a better place to hang out, that much is obvious.

I haven't posted for ages and looked in very occasionally in the hope that it might have moved back toward the excellent forum it once was.  But no, it has got even worse and many of the more interesting people and topics are no longer around.

It's Naim's to do with as they please and this is accepted.  But trying to paint it as some kind of success against the previous format, or providing glib responses like 'stats are up' insults the intelligence of anyone who has witnessed this debacle, or who continues to struggle with it's impenetrable 'format'.

I personally think it damages credibility not to acknowledge when you have a turkey on your hands, even if you are err, stuffed, as regards putting it right.  It doesn't reflect well on a company striving for excellence elsewhere.

Joe

Well put Joe, and I echo what Lontano says too except I have not lost interest in the brand...., being a passionate Naimee at heart.

Julian

The forum as it is doesn't have the nicest interface and the half width layout could do with being addressed, but it's perfectly usable. Changes would be welcome. I find the anger and petulance of some of the feedback difficult to understand. Could it possibly be that changing the distribution of users and the tone of the forum possibly had a desired effect?

Contentious I know. But you have to wonder

I don't get it Harry, are you saying that reduced usage and a narrower range of 'on message' contributors is what was required?  If so, mission accomplished it seems.

Joe

Unknown Joe. But you have to wonder.

This is me just staring skywards you understand; much of the criticism (so far as I remember) has been aggressive, implied some kind of privileged status/pseudo ownership and at times grandstanding. Some forums embrace this perspective, some tolerate it and maybe this one has inadvertently found a way of rejecting it?  I don’t profess to know the answer.

I think that the situation with regard to the serious drop off in interesting threads from a wide range of members from old hands to beginners is very sad to witness. I suspect that there is a sort of minimum level of posting below which the interest actually mitigates against posting something. The Stereo Thread that I started a few weeks ago was rather enjoyable for me, and its seems to several other posters at the time, but in reality such threads were common place in the past. One could read several such almost at any time, and the same in the Music Room. The Padded Cell used to be full of iconoclastic views that were often as entertaining as they occasionally offensive. but that is the nature of the Cell! Now it is anodyne to a fault.

I dare say that the Distributed Audio/Streaming section is alive for those who are investigating that route of replay, but once one has a sorted out a way forward it is not such a topic range as to spark lively debate as the whole issue of TTs, amplifiers, CD players, speakers, the philosophy of replay, room interactions with speakers, et cetera, as can occur in the Hifi corner, when things are going well.

I know what is meant when people say that the health of the Forum is based on the quality of the posts. That is fine, but posters have to want to post with the possibility of a serious examination of the topic [and sometimes off the topic] with considered and carefully made replies. The trouble is that people seem to have lost interest, and the result now seems like a positive feedback loop where the lack of interesting replies actually makes trying to start a great thread more and more unlikely. Of course the Forum will continue as long as Naim think it worthwhile, but as I observed earlier, there may well come a time when a serious examination of turning off the hoop.la pwer switch arrives if things a continue as they are.

I am not sure that the change of platform is altogether to blame - horrible though it is - and I think there has been a gradual decline over a longer period, and the changes only caused an acceleration.

It is a shame really. I really have enjoyed taking part in the forum, and have no intention of giving up my membership, but all I can hope is that some liveliness returns in time.

I installed Safari to be able to look at it nicely: A tip to avoid the rubbish on the right is to zoom till the text fills the page and the space is then filled with relevant words rather than the wasted space. This make the small print size much easier on the eye.

Best wishes from George 

I agree with Harry and George.   The current forum is perfectly usable.  We can start threads, read posts, and we can reply in turn.    I understand that the new layout was a turn-off for many, but IMO, cosmetics and content are two different things, and the latter is a lot more important.

Something else is going on, and as George suggests, it has been going on for a while.  Maybe we are seeing the former urban elite flee for the suburbs as the city becomes more diverse?   Don't know, but it does kind of feel that way to me.

What I do know is that there is absolutely nothing stopping anyone from starting a new, and interesting, thread.  I also know for a fact that there is nothing wrong with the Post Reply button.   It does not automatically edit out all of the interesting comments, leaving only the bland and repetitive ones behind. 

George's mono v. stereo thread was a good one.  Lots of clever replies, and lots of food for thought.   So have all of the people who participated in that thread also now fled?   Is there some new barrier to George, or anyone else, to firing up a new thread?

As far as I can tell, this forum works just like capitalism.   If someone launches a good, thoughtful thread, then others feel their brains stimulated, and they, in turn, contribute.   If someone launches a boring, repetitive thread, then they get one or two half assed replies, and it dies on the vine.   IMO, there is an unlimited demand for new and interesting threads.   And IMO, the real problem we face right now is supply.   There are simply not enough folks launching new threads that invite debate and discussion.  

And no, I do not know why that is so.   Maybe this hobby isn't as interesting as we think, and we are simply out of things to talk about.   Seems pretty unlikely though.  There is no shortage of really smart, really clever people on this forum, and many are great writers.  Are these folks really so mad at Naim for mucking with the look and feel of the place, that they have decided to rob us of their talents?  Does not sound plausible to me.

I think we may be looking at a classic self-fulfilling prophecy.   People *assume* that that there is nobody interested in their topics of interest, so they don't start new threads.   And then, because people aren't seeing new threads that interest them, they spend less and less time here.  And so the circle goes...

If I return for a moment to the capitalism theme, then I guess Naim would play the role of government.  So do you think there is anything our government could, or should, do to stimulate forum growth?   Let me put it another way, do you really believe that if Naim said "so sorry", and restored the forum its old format, that all of the old members would magically reappear?   I doubt it.

I have just one idea, and I hope Paul and his team are listening.  One of the most interesting, and passionate threads of late was when Naim asked for feedback on the new forum.   Hundreds and hundreds of replies.  Oh sure, it went from constructive criticism to silly ranting, so I understand why it was eventually shut down.  But it makes me think that if Naim were to start some threads themselves, and perhaps actually asked this community for feedback on where to take future products, or maybe even just did polls on current usage patterns, or did something, anything, to reach out to the forum members and at least create the illusion that they are listening, and care about what we think... 

Oh well, just a thought.

Hook

I'm sure they do care about what we think and value the feedback. I'm also sure that notwithstanding this being Naim's own forum, we form a small and skewed cohort of the customer and potential customer base which should not be given undue emphasis.

the iRadio beta test invitation is a good illustration of how Naim can use this cross section of its customers for a valuable win win. But we shouldn't take ourselves too seriously. This place used to be jammed with static. 

It used to be an interesting, well presented and easy to use forum.  Now the threads are fewer in number and of occasional interest, the site is very badly presented and not as easy to use.

I take the point about it being Naim's forum and it's only HI Fi chat and so on.  But that misses the point that it didn't start from scratch.  That would have been merely disappointing.  A decent amount of time had led to a thriving forum that was very easy to navigate.   It made visits enjoyable and location of favourite topics/contributors was intuitive.

Anyway, enough wasted bandwidth from me, you chaps seem happy with it - I think it's off putting.  C'est la vie.  FWIW I think it went from one of the better looking and usable forums, to the worst in one leap.

Joe

Joe,

I agree with you and i thought Lontano,s post was a very good one.

I am led to believe Paul Stephenson is not happy with what hooplus are doing also.

You never know things might change soon.

Fingers crossed

Stu

I have not posted, or replied, recently. The Forum seems to keep changing its layout. Sorry can't be bothered to keep up. 

I did try to be +ve about the changes, but I can't anymore.

Fundamentally, the forum is its users. There are/were a lot of good ones - and the usual proportion of complete idiots.

I will check back ocassionally, to see if it gets better. Maybe in 6 months.

Old good people will leave. New good people will emerge. 

Chris

Camaraderie and friendship are mentioned by many as being key amongst the benefits derived from membership of this forum. Implicit in this is the simple courtesy of recognising the authors of posts or views being commented upon, by the authors of subsequent posts.

I find it sad to note that Ewemon has relegated me to the status of  "one of the posters".  I have been a contributing member of this forum since April 2004 and, perhaps naively, expected a little recognition. This is probably my misunderstanding of the courtesies and the crucial point I am missing is that I am no more than an unremarkable mote in the rarefied air of the forum fleetingly caught in the light from time to time. 

Regarding Ewemon's comment, I do not feel that I have missed anything crucial. If I had, I would not have commented as I did.  I remain of the view that the crucial missing element for me has had been the words in support of the pictures.

Whilst the posting of an album cover by certain individuals may confer an implicit recommendation that does not require any supporting explanation, Ewemon has missed the point that it is only in his view. For many readers (although in the context of this perhaps "viewers" is the correct term) the "certain individuals" of impeccable taste remain unknown quantities and whilst for example I may recognise the name Lontano, I have no idea what his impeccable credentials are such that words become superfluous and pictures suffice.

Regarding Jazz, it was the auditory introduction to the likes of Oscar Peterson and Jacques Loussier afforded to me by a friend that persuaded me that the genre was not just a disjointed cacophany of noise with the only thing the musicians having in common being the fact that they shared the same stage.  Had I relied on pictures alone, neither of these artists would be found in my music collection and my sole concession to the genre would be a copy of the sound track to the Aristocats.

Thoughtfully yours

Brad

Brad

Some people have had various nom-de-plumes over the years, and so might not be linked to their previous contributions.

Regarding album covers, I found that when I recognised a number posted by one individual (that I knew and liked) seeing one that I didn't recognise posted by the same would pique my interest.

I don't spend much time in the Music Room at the mo, my time on the forum is many snatched moments whilst waiting for other things to happen, so it is harder to keep track.

I still think of jazz as noise, and classical still bores me, but have also discovered Porcupine Tree, which suits my taste, thanks to those on this forum.

John