Can we trust our ears?

There's a guy on another forum who stirs up a right old scene by saying that any competent DAC/amp etc will sound the same as another that measures the same. He has therefore selected his system based on measurements alone. Many that have heard it say it's not very good!

I have to trust my ears because they're all I have. I think I can trust them. What I can't trust is my musical memory, other people's ears and pseudo scientific BS.

My ears are the only thing I trust when I am deciding what sounds better or not and whether I can hear a difference or not..

It helps if you also have an open mind 

I think you can trust them over a suitably long period of time, when listening to a wide variety of music but I'm not so sure that you can immediately after a change and when listening to a new component or software change.  There is too much expectation bias, in either direction, and we are trying too hard to hear the differences.  Usually when I make a change I try and leave it in for a week or two and then remove it.  If I miss it after a couple of days I know it was positive.  

I think Harry has hit the nail on the head when he talked about his "musical memory".

Ears alone are fine when you want to make a decision about "do I like this" ... at this point in time, at this place.

... but when it comes to "is this better than that" we need memory and I also don't trust mine.

That's what leads to assertions that "my system is sounding better today" which I would find difficult to make since I can't remember what it sounded like yesterday!

Some may say that "I didn't hear that instrument before" or "the bass is clearer" or anything else but is that really true or have we just noticed it and it had been there all along.

I do find myself sometimes thinking along these lines and then that particular piece of music will come on my Sonos Play-1 or low-end DAB and I'll notice it there too ... did it just appear?

The only time I have been sure about something was when I played it on my HiFi rig in the living room and played the same piece through my computer and Logitec surround system in the den and ran between the two rooms

... yes definitely differences, the piano sounded like a piano on the HiFi but the bass notes sounded like a bass guitar in the den.

My ears heard that difference directly but remembering that over a period of time would, I think, be more problematic although it was so obvious in this example that I'm sure I would have ... but you get the idea.

Prolonged listning helps set this memory and hence why prolonged home demos are so advantageous ... but then we still have to remember what it used to sound like ... ditto when we take out the demo component.

That's why I try to get the overall "feell" of a piece of music rather than focusing on some particular attribute - not very successfully often though

Whatever, this is only relevant when upgrading or replacing ... the rest of the time just lie back and let your ears hear all those wonderful tunes,

Allan

I don't think my 'specific memory of hearing' is all that reliable. I find that if I can literally swap from track to track (eg to compare WAV with FLAC) I can tell, but even having to stop to swap a cable makes it much harder to make a comparison. Certainly comparing 'good' hi fi a few days apart is almost impossible for me.

However, I find that my 'long-term unconscious hearing' is surprisingly reliable; something about tapping my foot, noticing the music, wanting just one more track, and then another one more. If a hi fi does that for me after a fortnight, it will do that for me forever. And if not, not. 

I remember being moved to tears of joy when I first heard a CDS3/252/300/Spendor S8e at the dealer. I remember how gobsmacked I was at the sheer realism when I heard a 552/500 into SL2 with a variety of sources at the same dealer. I remember them because they were memorable for good reason. But past that, the brain is very good at filling in gaps and constructing a narrative. Too clever for its own good.

I take a Cartesian view: I listen therefore I am. I trust what I hear because not only is that all I have but it confirms and gives meaning to my existence.

Because people are swayed by the power of suggestion, so in reality it's not only your ears but sometimes your eyes and the power of suggestion.

I have been in many blind listening testing seminars, and I have never seen products like cables do any better than 50%. In other words, none of the participants correctly picked the cable they thought they were listening to more than 50 % of the time.

can you trust to "reviewer's ears"? 

SJB has used my quote slightly out of context, not that it's still not a great question. All I was asking is why we need to know exactly why something sounds different, if we can hear that it does? It's certainly enough for me. 

Turning to the power of suggestion, that's an interesting one. I've been to one of the demos that Naim do at the factory, where they play a track, swap a component for something better, and then play it again. At the end of the song, the Naim person smiles sweetly and says something along the lines of 'so there we hear much better coordination of the two guitars' or 'the punch of the drums was much better that time, wasn't it?'. Of course it was, we've just been told by the person who 'knows'. It takes a brave person to sit there and say, 'sorry mate, it's exactly the same' or even worse 'sorry mate, but I preferred the first one'. One doesn't want to be thought of as having cloth ears, does one?

That said, when trying wires and geeky things like switches, I always try to start with the mindset that there will be no difference. That seems more likely to get you to a place where you know if there really is one, rather than setting out with an expectation that it will be better. Easier said than done of course. 

Hungryhalibut posted:

SJB has used my quote slightly out of context, not that it's still not a great question. All I was asking is why we need to know exactly why something sounds different, if we can hear that it does? It's certainly enough for me. 

Turning to the power of suggestion, that's an interesting one. I've been to one of the demos that Naim do at the factory, where they play a track, swap a component for something better, and then play it again. At the end of the song, the Naim person smiles sweetly and says something along the lines of 'so there we hear much better coordination of the two guitars' or 'the punch of the drums was much better that time, wasn't it?'. Of course it was, we've just been told by the person who 'knows'. It takes a brave person to sit there and say, 'sorry mate, it's exactly the same' or even worse 'sorry mate, but I preferred the first one'. One doesn't want to be thought of as having cloth ears, does one?

That said, when trying wires and geeky things like switches, I always try to start with the mindset that there will be no difference. That seems more likely to get you to a place where you know if there really is one, rather than setting out with an expectation that it will be better. Easier said than done of course. 

Very good post HH.

HH said "...

That said, when trying wires and geeky things like switches, I always try to start with the mindset that there will be no difference. That seems more likely to get you to a place where you know if there really is one, rather than setting out with an expectation that it will be better. Easier said than done of course.

... "

I agree HH but given that we have either spent (or are going to spend) a lot of money, or have expended effort in changing cabling etc, I am not convinced that I can be that objective - "easier said than done" indeed" - perhaps subconsciously I want this to be better  because I have put some effort into it.

 Allan

Emre posted:

can you trust to "reviewer's ears"? 

Entirely up to the individual.

I don't. How can anyone else hear with my ears?

Don't the have in the United States of Audiophiles the phrase 'In Ears we Trust' on the banknotes?

About 15 years ago I went to an artists exhibit with a friend of mine. We were in our early twenties and were both very interested in weird arts.

We were in a room where there was a barking dog on a video.

In the next room, there was a display asking some questions about the barking dog.

One of them was 'did you hear the dog barking'?

Yes of course I did - I thought.

Went back to the previous room.

It was absolutely silent.

Imagination.

Some other sensory perceptions are at play.   I would imagine being in that situation of comparing the Vodka against the Cinnamon cables as one leaving an astringent and the other a bitter/sweet taste in the mouth.  Other times dropping in a better power cable I could feel the air being energised more.     And of course there is something comforting and hypnotic about watching a record being played.

I recently had a home demo of Chord Dave vs my own Hugo TT.  I preferred the TT even though it technically measures the poorer of the two and all reviewers, including the designer of both DACS, claim it is sonically superior to TT. I could hear some sonic benefits to Dave over TT but my ears, for whatever reason, told me it did not sound quite right. I trusted my ears and to my surprise I rejected it.

Where possible and spending a lot of money I also think it's wise to complete blind testing.

I guess I have learnt to trust my ears, or rather what the brain interprets from what it is sent from the ears. In the end, our ears are all we have so we have to trust them.

A consensus of the opinion of others you trust (dealers, colleagues, reviewers, this fine place) is also a good indicator of which kit produces good sounds and which kit fails to do so. But the opinions of others can only an indicator, often useful in drawing up a shortlist of kit we should then listen to at length with our own aural receptors of course.

Sometimes I believe we underestimate how incredibly sensitive our ears are, able to detect tiny changes in pitch, tempo, tone, rhythm and then interpreting what those changes mean - changes that are often vital to what the musician or vocalist it trying to convey. There are of course different 'tastes' in sound reproduction. A rather crude example is, one person's fine high level detail is another person's screechy treble. I exaggerate to make a point. So individual preference plays a role in evaluating how well a component 'performs'. There are other factors as well, some well understood like room interaction and others may be less well understood like the variable quality of mains power, the impact of noise and interference and even our moods during a particular listening occasion.

So we ask a lot of our poor old ears in receiving, interpreting and disentangling all the factors I have mentioned (and others I can't even comprehend) and then to finally make sense of the sounds emanating from our systems. For me the one true test of a system (and the environment is operating in) is, does the music make sense and does it move me?

Halloween Man posted:

I recently had a home demo of Chord Dave vs my own Hugo TT.  I preferred the TT even though it technically measures the poorer of the two and all reviewers, including the designer of both DACS, claim it is sonically superior to TT. I could hear some sonic benefits to Dave over TT but my ears, for whatever reason, told me it did not sound quite right. I trusted my ears and to my surprise I rejected it.

Where possible and spending a lot of money I also think it's wise to complete blind testing.

DAVE didn't do it for me in comparison with my QBD76hdsd, but I was certain beforehand it would be absolutely wonderful. As has been mentioned a fair few times, lengthy auditioning in your own system is the only way to be sure you like what you're hearing. Swapping back to the old kit is the final arbiter. I only trust my ears, no one elses. Personally, I find blind testing unsatisfactory. I cannot relax and enjoy if I'm supposed to be deciding something in what is inevitably a short timescale.

The Strat (Fender) posted:

There's a guy on another forum who stirs up a right old scene by saying that any competent DAC/amp etc will sound the same as another that measures the same. He has therefore selected his system based on measurements alone. Many that have heard it say it's not very good!

Indeed and he gives a good argument on how everything sounds the same but interestingly the systems he brings to the Scalford hi-fi show are amongst the worst I have heard!

Interesting discussion.  My personal take:

As an aerodynamicist in my earlier career, we would say (relevant to wind tunnel testing) we had the choice between "a meaningfull answer to a meaningless question" or a "meaningless answer to a meaningful question."  This is common across all of science and engineering:  to obtain a simple result we would have to simplify a system to irrelevance, whereas real-world situations were so complicated as to defy simple interpretation.   Similarly, in the audio world, there are many variables at play and "simple changes" can be problematic.  (Change a box:  same rack positioning?  Cable dressing?  Cleaning of connectors?  Settling-in of rack and connections?  Burn in?  ...)

When listening to music there are so many variables.  If we make a deliberate change, then focus on details, our brains use "models" (some of which are wrong) and experience, to unravel many aspects of the sound we hear:  musical composition,  instrumental technique, microphone placement, recorded acoustics, digital artifacts, dust on a stylus, electronic distortion, timbral balance, intermodulation, "noise" background, loudspeaker dispersion, room reflections, prominence of certain instruments or voices, harmony and rhythms among musicians - to name a few.   Seldom will we notice all of these things.  Different listeners to the same music will likely notice different things.  When a deliberate change is made, our focus may be guided by our expectations (which may be ill-informed).

But focused listening is not how we listen when simply enjoying music - where we might submit to the "suspension of disbelief" and become entranced by the magic of the music.

So this is a most fascinating hobby (or, for some, a career).   Do I trust my ears?  Yes, tentatively and with a measure of scepticism.  I look for a consistent result over time and many different pieces of music.  I also prefer consensus from other listeners.  I am an engineer whose hobby is to improve home music reproduction, including the design and evolution of loudspeakers.  I occasionaly take miss-steps, but over time the music replay here has definitely improved.

Charlie

Ardbeg10y posted:

About 15 years ago I went to an artists exhibit with a friend of mine. We were in our early twenties and were both very interested in weird arts.

We were in a room where there was a barking dog on a video.

In the next room, there was a display asking some questions about the barking dog.

One of them was 'did you hear the dog barking'?

Yes of course I did - I thought.

Went back to the previous room.

It was absolutely silent.

Imagination.

I'll have some of what you were smoking