Fraim rearrangement advice

Until recently, I didn't appreciate how important it was to keep the 'boxes' apart. My system has somewhat fewer components than yours arranged in two 'piles' on the floor and an Audiotech table. Reodering the 'boxes' within one of these stacks (moving a Supercap further away heightwise from the 82 it was running) made a enourmous difference. It was as though the SC PSU was 'sitting' on the sound - not allowing it to 'breathe'. I suspect that most racks leave the 'boxes' too close for top performance. Your phono stage will obviously be the most vulnerable and a good headphone amp is very revealing. It may be worth trying a power-down of some of your components. You may find that this 'freshens' the sound up by removing the cumulative effects of low-level interference. I think the answer may be some trial and error testing on you part - maybe put the LP 12 on it's own, dedicated, stand - freeing up more space on your Fraim. Or maybe start a 3rd pile of 'boxes'.

Erich - I actually found my LP12 is more happy sitting on a regular shelf than on a glass one.
Also try keeping all components without internal power supplies on one stack. The other one - keep it for the power supplies.

Adam

Keep the Power Amp transformer away from other boxes, but put it onto a fraim shelf as you may be surprised at just how sensitive Naim power amps are to being on a good shelf.

I'd put the Lingo either on the floor or another secondary shelf away from the rest of the HiFi as it is very electrically noisy - preferably also plug into a separate mains circuit if you are using a special HiFi mains circuit then plug it into the regular house mains, as there is no earth connection made between it and the Pre so it can be isolated and sounds the better for it. To prove this to yourself play some music with the CD player then un-plug Lingo and hear what it does.

The other advice is all equipment containing powered mains transformers on one Fraim stack and the rest on the other and arranged so all cables dress suitably off the floor.

DB.

I have a 52, so maybe 252 is different. But with the DIN connections on the back of the 52 it is difficult to connect other sources unless the 52 is on the top shelf.  On other shelves of fraim the back post of the fraim gets in the way.  Therefore, I have 2 fraim stacks- cds 2 on top of left and 52 on top of right. 
david

Adam Zielinski posted:

Erich - I actually found my LP12 is more happy sitting on a regular shelf than on a glass one.
Also try keeping all components without internal power supplies on one stack. The other one - keep it for the power supplies.

Adam

TYVM.  It's impossible to do that way in 2 piles. Only 3 components have no ps inside. But I'm going to do my best to follow your advice.

According to Adam's recommendation I will leave the lp12 in a FraimLite and use it (as per DB rec) for the 250.

If I lleave the lingo on the floor, I will generate a space to isolate a bit more the transformers from the 252. I'm going to work in a second version to see how it looks like.

Erich posted:

Adam Zielinski posted:

Erich - I actually found my LP12 is more happy sitting on a regular shelf than on a glass one.
Also try keeping all components without internal power supplies on one stack. The other one - keep it for the power supplies.

Adam

TYVM.  It's impossible to do that way in 2 piles. Only 3 components have no ps inside. But I'm going to do my best to follow your advice.

If you have a source like CDX2 and it uses an external power supply, that means your source can go on the 'quiet' side i.e. On the side where you have other components without transformers.

Erich posted:

According to Adam's recommendation I will leave the lp12 in a FraimLite and use it (as per DB rec) for the 250.

Erich - just to clarify: my LP12 has a Trampolin and Kore. So it's fully suspended and well isolated by itself.

Erich posted:

If I lleave the lingo on the floor, I will generate a space to isolate a bit more the transformers from the 252. I'm going to work in a second version to see how it looks like.

Erich, I have the equivalent of a Fraim mid level spacing between my 252 headend and any transformer, and I am sure it benefits the sound from that NAC, also I keep the burndy and Snaics loose and unstrained between the headend and its SuperCap and that helps no end as well, really helps the music breath... having spent the day with Naim yesterday going around the factory (thanks Mark)  I now understand that these two aspects  are a deliberate part of the system setup for optimal sound performance. I seperate my two stacks out on a digital and analogue basis.. as opposed to transformer and non transformer.. so I have my streamer, CDX2 and DAC on one stack, any my tuner, 252 and 250 on another. I use vertical separation on one stack  to distance 252 headend from transformers.

With regard to transformers, you should try and keep sensitive components away from the front right side of classic series components with transformers in. Naim have the transformers designed for max field strength emissions in that direction.

so are we separating them  sound / electricity or digital / analog....  i have 2 bases, 4 levels one side 3 level one side ( 2 arriving in a week)  that was my plan, any thoughts ? 

Emre posted:

so are we separating them  sound / electricity or digital / analog....  i have 2 bases, 4 levels one side 3 level one side ( 2 arriving in a week)  that was my plan, any thoughts ? 

EAT MAJOR TT
STAGELINE/ CREEK HA	TXPS
CD2X	FLATCAP2
NAC 272N	555PSDR
NAP300DR	NAP300PS

My thoughts?

You've built a monster.

Simplify!

Emre posted:

so are we separating them  sound / electricity or digital / analog....  i have 2 bases, 4 levels one side 3 level one side ( 2 arriving in a week)  that was my plan, any thoughts ? 

EAT MAJOR TT
STAGELINE/ CREEK HA	TXPS
CD2X	FLATCAP2
NAC 272N	555PSDR
NAP300DR	NAP300PS

Nice one. Good separation of brain from brown.

Ignore Joerand's advice  Everyone has a system they like. My main rig has 11 components if I count headline + napsc.

I really would get the preamp - ok in this case a hybrid preamp - but preamp none the less up away from those big transformers. In that setup I would swap it with the TXPS and put as much vertical separation as is practical - such as mid support between it and the FlatCap2. 

S

The Pre and especially sources also sound better higher up in the Fraim stack. I have my CD555 source alone on its own Fraim stack of two medium levels with the lower and middle level empty except for glass shelf. I tried the CD555 on a single shelf but it lost a lot of performance and I seems that the extra shelf provides better isolation in my system. The shelves do not have to be empty - I used to have my old 552Pre on the shelf below the CD555 and it worked well, but when I changed the Pre out and had then a gap is when I discovered I needed the shelf anyway.

It is all in the end a compromise of priorities. If it also has to 'look good' then that imposes another, for many, important constraint.

I've experimented over the years with multiple Fraim stacks as to what works best for me and found that keeping large transformers, especially those handling high dynamic currents (Power Amp supplies) away from other equipment opens-out the sound from layers of 'gunk' (technical term) - with three of them in my Active system I also found they all needed to be apart from each other with the Bass supplies needing most space, as expected.

Then the next thing is arrangement for easy cable-dressing so that they all 'hang loose' and their is not a tight mesh of cables all crossing and touching at the back of the stacks.

Keep digital-related supplies and cables away from the rest of the analogue system cables - a gap of 10mm separating a CD supply Burndy from analogue cables is clearly audible and very worthwhile, with more gap being better still.

I found 'Brain' on left and 'Brawn' on right worked best for me and keeps transformers farthest away from sensitive boxes.

DB.

I would love to see a blind listening test on various arrangements of equipment within a Fraim to see if anyone could actually tell the difference in sound from position of each piece of equipment.  That's not to say I am dismissing the fact there would be changes, and while I understand the principles of keeping transformers away from sources etc, surely then the very nature of a hifi 'rack' contradicts these ideologies by facilitating the stacking of equipment in close proximity? 

My fraim (lite) is:

top - LP12

Shelf 1 - UQ2 and Nait 2

Shelf 2 - Hi-Cap and Nac 32.5

Base - Nap 250

Cabling is all standard apart from a Powerline feeding my UQ2.

I also have a Lingo Mk1 which is in an adjacent cupboard with the cable trailing across to the rear of the NAc 32.5.  What I have noticed is that lately I seem to be getting loads of pops through my speakers while the system is on and not in use from various switches being activated in the house (boiler coming on, lights getting switched on in various rooms etc)  It's actually quite annoying and wonder if there's a reason to it?

Otherwise it sounds very very good to me and I haven't' the space or finance to purchase a secondary shelving system at present. 

I've just spent 4 hours rearranging my Fraim stacks all to get the 552 one shelf higher, now below record deck with CDX2 below that then Superline and 500 head unit. Power supplies are diagonal to the unit supplied so from the bottom 552 ps, 555ps, supercap and 500 ps. Above these are a NAD 4020A tuner and a virgin box, these last two and the turntable are on Lite, the tuner and Tivo both have "granite" boards to raise them a bit futher away from the Naim boxes. 4 hours to swap 2 boxes round and adjust a few Fraim legs. I think it's worked as I keep getting drawn out of writing this to listen to a Faure piano quartet and it wasn't so distracting this morning. I'd tried pre above CD player when the pre was a 282 and gone back to the other way round for preference. Maybe the pres react differently to their environment?

Now playing and enjoying Wishbone ash 4, an album that is very inclined to drag a bit if something's not right, I don't think I've ever heard it better.

When I started introducing full Fraim shelves to my Lite stacks I thought the Superline and CDX2 benefited most.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

I really would get the preamp - ok in this case a hybrid preamp - but preamp none the less up away from those big transformers. In that setup I would swap it with the TXPS and put as much vertical separation as is practical - such as mid support between it and the FlatCap2. 

S

Thank you Simon and Adam

Himmmm will my witchhat xlr/din will make the distance? I can add a medium fraim make it 4/4 , keeping it empty will break my heart and will remind me that I lost my mind with this! some while a go a level of empty fraim would sound crazy to Me!  still does but I Can!  I am an addict ! need Help! 

Emre posted:

  I am an addict ! need Help! 

That's OK Emre. Press the little green logo on each box. It helps...

One more fraim than it is over

Emre posted:

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

I really would get the preamp - ok in this case a hybrid preamp - but preamp none the less up away from those big transformers. In that setup I would swap it with the TXPS and put as much vertical separation as is practical - such as mid support between it and the FlatCap2. 

S

 

Thank you Simon and Adam

Himmmm will my witchhat xlr/din will make the distance? I can add a medium fraim make it 4/4 , keeping it empty will break my heart and will remind me that I lost my mind with this! some while a go a level of empty fraim would sound crazy to Me!  still does but I Can!  I am an addict ! need Help! 

Very pleased with my witchat xlr/din and speaker cables

Sorry  for the delay. today (8th) was a holiday here and I wasn't at home. Here the second version:

I usually have al the boxes on with the exception of the Lingo and the Hicap (which hums) that I switch on when I use the LP12.

Adam Zielinski posted:

Erich posted:

According to Adam's recommendation I will leave the lp12 in a FraimLite and use it (as per DB rec) for the 250.

Erich - just to clarify: my LP12 has a Trampolin and Kore. So it's fully suspended and well isolated by itself.

Adam, mine too. It's what Linn call Akurate and includes Trampolin and Kore among other upgrades.

I think it looks good now and should sound well.

Erich, I suggest you split your items as follows:

Brawn on the right: HC, SC, 250 Lingo, Napsc

Brains on the left: LP12, CDX, 252, V1, Headline, SL

You might vary this by putting your less-used source on the top of the right hand stack, but ideally it should be away from the transformers.

The next thing to work out would be the order within each side.