Power supply philosophy?

They are different in approach but not in the importance they place on them. Linn's PSUs fit internall but are dedicated components that can be upgraded and swapped out. Switchmode just happens to be small enough to allow for this.

I remember when Linn brought out the Brilliant in the mid 90's and everyone was clamoring to get the upgrade. Wasn't hugely different in cost from a HiCap. True, Linn don't have any PSU that sets you back like a 555PS but that doesn't mean they think they are less important. Just that they beleive they have found the right solution and it costs less.

Having moved from all Linn to all Naim (with other stuff in the intervening years), I can say that the PSU didn't really come into it. I never thought, "The Naim sounds better and it must be that XPS!" It was more of a case of "System B sounds better for the money. It happens to be Naim and system B requires X number of boxes. I have room for them so let's do it."

There will always be more than one way to skin a cat as they say.

NAIM's rather dated and stubborn insistence on this expensive additional outboard supply based on fairly 1960's technology is to me the very least appealing part of their offering and eco-system. I find it incredibly off-putting and that it adds a lot of space and complexity to building a system. The very unfortunate part :-) is that having owned many systems over the years from many manufacturers I have learned that I greatly prefer the NAIM sound and really like their amplification and streaming offerings. The musical enjoyment outweighs the additional boxes, expense and inconvenience of the whole thing. That said, I would be really happy if NAIM changes this in the future and can keep the same sound quality and engagement. I think that the old school idea of a Hi-Fi being an expanse of separate boxes, cables and racks is appealing to fewer and fewer in the marketplace. I would guess the uptake on the new Uniti and converged units like the NAC-N 172/NAC-N 272 will be far higher than the expansive multibox route. I would much rather if sound quality was equal have a single box NAC-N 572 than a analog pre, a streamer, a dac,  3 external power supplies and all the requisite cables. I don't think that many households have the space for that. For me it is about the music and sound in addition to the ease of accessibility. It is wonderful to have a simple main system and be able to without fuss have smaller single box MuSo's to expand that into other non-main listening rooms. 

I wish Naim would sell a Statement level integrated amp with streaming.  One box, $100K... I'd be first in line.  

Chris Bell posted:

I wish Naim would sell a Statement level integrated amp with streaming.  One box, $100K... I'd be first in line.  

And any desire to upgrade would entail you selling off the whole hifi for something else. Of course that's stating the obvious. There probably is a market for just what you mentioned. Not sure many of the existing Naim customers would be in that market (but some would judging by forum comments).

I would think it would not cost 100k to do something like that, maybe I am wrong. Part of the advantage of convergence is the cost should go down, 1 power supply, one box, none of the magic snow flake cables etc. I am not saying it would be cheap as quality never is. However they already have a 282/NDX quality/level converged box in the 272 which I have said before I think is one of if not their their best and strongest offerings. I would imaging that there would be a market and I personally would be very interested in a 252/NDS level single box 572 type solution if it could be done... That would be just the sweet spot I would thinks....

We live in a digital age where it seems most everyone is streaming (except maybe me). Class D amplification is efficient, compact, relatively inexpensive, and convenient. In this age/environment, the notion of PSUs on black boxes along with the associated cost and hassle of interconnects, power cords, shelving really seems pretty freaking preposterous. Beyond that, my limited experience with Naim + PSUs consistently leads me back to the same conclusion; the simplest system is the best for my needs.

joerand posted:

We live in a digital age where it seems most everyone is streaming (except maybe me). Class D amplification is efficient, compact, relatively inexpensive, and convenient. In this age/environment, the notion of PSUs on black boxes along with the associated cost and hassle of interconnects, power cords, shelving really seems pretty freaking preposterous. Beyond that, my limited experience with Naim + PSUs consistently leads me back to the same conclusion; the simplest system is the best for my needs.

I used to feel the same way. Even before Naim, I gave up an all Linn system in favor of something simple and convenient. Something mobile for on the go with reasonable headphones and something basic and limited to 2 boxes for main listening. At first I was happy and didn't think I was losing any enjoyment. But 13 years later and I had all but stopped buying or listening to music and never really questioned why. Then I walked back into the shop I used to work at and had a demo of a current Linn and Naim system and realised that I had lost so much. I dropped a few grand and went away with 6 black boxes but I also listened to music like never before and started buying it again.

The above is an extreme example. Your SN is not exactly an Onkyo micro system and a Walkman. But the point is, you can't get it all into one box without compromise. The question is, is it worth it? I don't know the answer to that. When you read how hard it is for people to get on the housing ladder or even get out from under shared living arrangements well into their 30's I have to suspect that yeah, people probably have other priorities these days. Plus there is this whole new breed of affluent generation Y that simply shun owning stuff in general (which is giving car makers a headache).

That really makes premium items with expensive PSU that appear to sit and do nothing an even harder sell than it was 20 years ago. I hope Naim can continue to grow doing things how they think they should be done. But that really depends on there being a market for it.

DUPREE posted:

I would think it would not cost 100k to do something like that, maybe I am wrong. Part of the advantage of convergence is the cost should go down, 1 power supply, one box, none of the magic snow flake cables etc. I am not saying it would be cheap as quality never is. However they already have a 282/NDX quality/level converged box in the 272 which I have said before I think is one of if not their their best and strongest offerings. I would imaging that there would be a market and I personally would be very interested in a 252/NDS level single box 572 type solution if it could be done... That would be just the sweet spot I would thinks....

i think with 172/272 they in line with streamers rather then pre amps....  172 - ND5 / 272- NDX / 372 - NDS sort of logic.... also with the price point... rather then 200/282/252/552 hierarchy, just my amateur impression.  

There isn't a right or wrong, just differences in approach. The Naim approach with separate power supplies had both upsides and downsides. If you take the 272 for example, as it's been mentioned above, you can buy the box for £3,800 and it will work happily. If you want better you can add an XPS for another £3,800, and you effectively turn the base box into another thing altogether. If you were in Linn land you'd sell the first box and get a better one. I'm not really sure which is best. But if you look at the big Naim systems, the idea of NDS with two PS, 552 with PS, snaxo with PS, three 500s each with a PS, and maybe a Superline with PS, that's eight PSs, which is pretty crazy, and if there was a way of getting the PS in the main box the setup would be half the size. There is also the issue of needing to recap the bloomin' things every ten years, and wouldn't it be good  if that could be eliminated. 

Both approaches work well as both companies (and many others who use the different approaches) demonstrate. Switch mode supplies tend to get bad press through the very low end noisy devices (think crappy wall warts) but designed and applied properly in an audio application, they can work very well. 

Chris Bell posted:

I wish Naim would sell a Statement level integrated amp with streaming.  One box, $100K... I'd be first in line.  

I wish I too had $100K burning my pocket... I'd add them to my savings and look for a place to finally  be in this position:

M

Power supplies do what power supplies do...
With the current and existing technology there isn't really a clever way to eliminate all the electro-magnetic interference caused by a process of converting altrantig current into a direct one. Of course - things improved vastly during the last 40 years, but essentially it's the same technology.

I still prefer NAIM upgrade path. Like one box - good - another one and you like the 1st one even more. 
Selling a previous one and replacing it with a new one is actually harder in markets which are not as saturated as the UK. 

Part of the NAIM sound does come from a fact it has external power supplies - take out the noisy bits and place them in a separate enclosure. To me that's pure genius.

Yep, the PS route can get a little out of hand ...

compare, for example, a single box Linn Klimax with the 6 box 282 or 252 pre + PS + nDac + PS + NDX or NDS + PS

If you were at that level I suppose you could also make room for all those boxes but still crazy

... but then how could you scratch that upgrade itch if you didn't have anywhere to go

Allan

In a way you're right. Let's contrast this:

Uniti (the one with a CD player) = 1 box

CDX2.2 + 555PS + NDS + 555PS + 252 + SCDR + NAP 250DR + Headline + NAPSC = 9 boxes and enough cables to strangle a pyton.

Same functionality - yes. 

Same sound - not really

PSs are the perfect business model only other to LP12..... it never ends.....  

Adam - I take your point but you're comparing two systems at entirely different levels.

My comparison was roughly at comparable level - although the Klimax is the top of the Linn range while the Naim is not ...

... that is for this functionality, I know the Linn systems can go all digital with Exakt etc but let's not go down that route

Although perhaps that is more significant regarding the different "philosophies" of the two companies; it appears to me that Linn is very much focused on this digital arena but you can use their kit for more traditional HiFi as well, while Naim are in the more "traditional" HiFi arena with the digital side being added.

... the LP12, of course, is an outlier here.

As always, you pays your money and makes your choice

Allan

Allan Milne posted:

 

Adam - I take your point but you're comparing two systems at entirely different levels.

 

Of course Allan - that was the whole point of my comparison. I was trying to show that the same functionality can be achieved in one box. It will cost significantly less. But it will not offer the same level of playback quality.

Current technology is the constraining factor.

One can of course argue that Linn and Devialet managed this. But they don't sound the same.

Is the difference intentional (part of say Linn house sound) or is it an inevitable consequence of engineering compromises?

Adam - I get that, and also agree that there may be some underlying engineering principles.

The Linn Klimax seems to, by all accounts, deliver in one box what Naim takes 6 to do at that level though ... intriguing and I'm definitely going to have a listen to see just how much different the presentation is and whether it really is a contender if I choose to go to that level.

The same goes for the Linn Akurate against (similar(ish) price point) the 282/nDac/NDX; however as the OP points out, the Naim philosophy allows lots of PS upgrades  

Allan

Linn systems sound fantastic. Naim systems sound fantastic. I prefer the Naim version of fantastic. It's nice to have a choice.I could be just as happy with Linn if Naim was unobtainable. I would also be just as happy if it was impossible for me to accommodate a multi box stack. Happily I can, so I don't have to go with the slightly less preferable version of fantastic. 

It's not really a question of what seems relevant today. Or if the technology is stone age. How does it sound? If you prefer to look at your system, count the boxes  and read the specifications sheet it probably doesn't sound all that good.

I've driven some bloody awful cars, many incorporating highly clever efficient/electric/hybrid systems, which looked compelling on paper, got rave road tests and look like the future.  

DUPREE posted:

Ithey already have a 282/NDX quality/level converged box in the 272 

?????

Harry posted:

Linn systems sound fantastic.

I'm going to say something controversial here.   I enjoyed Linn speakers back in the 80s  but I've always thought their electronics lifeless in comparison with others not just Naim.

Regards,

Lindsay

The Strat (Fender) posted:

DUPREE posted:

Ithey already have a 282/NDX quality/level converged box in the 272 

?????

Indeed Lindsay.... indeed.... 

Harry posted:

Linn systems sound fantastic. Naim systems sound fantastic. I prefer the Naim version of fantastic. It's nice to have a choice.I could be just as happy with Linn if Naim was unobtainable. I would also be just as happy if it was impossible for me to accommodate a multi box stack. Happily I can, so I don't have to go with the slightly less preferable version of fantastic. 

It's not really a question of what seems relevant today. Or if the technology is stone age. How does it sound? If you prefer to look at your system, count the boxes  and read the specifications sheet it probably doesn't sound all that good.

I've driven some bloody awful cars, many incorporating highly clever efficient/electric/hybrid systems, which looked compelling on paper, got rave road tests and look like the future.  

I agree, I have owned an Aktiv all Linn system, I currently have a Naim system (with a LP-12). I actually got rid of the Linn system originally and went to something much more commodity and simple because of the expanse of boxes and cables to go Aktiv and the overall complexity and size. I find the Linn Exakt offering to be really compelling in it's simplicity. Honestly, I think form factor wise it's ideal, everything in a single box, active amps in the speakers so the elimination of bulky cables and the whole painful discussion of interconnect/cable voodoo. I suspect that in this era of technological connivence that it is a super compelling offering in the marketplace. I went the NAP250DR/NAC-N 272 route instead as it was in my opinion the best sounding and also offered a compromise between the simplicity of the Exakt offering and the best ultimate sound. I maybe completely wrong but I think simplicity and convergence is the future and I also think NAIM likely sees this as well as evidenced by the gorgeous looking new Uniti and how much engineering and investment went into that as well as the MuSo line and the work that went into the 272 - all of those are forward thinking products. Technology is advancing, it they had a product like the Uniti Nova that had 250DR/272 performance (The SuperNova), I would buy it in a second. The aesthetics, connivence and accessibility of that form factor is terrific. It is not about how many boxes it takes, it is about how much it connects you with the music. Having more boxes or spending maximum investment does not always get you there. I can say definitively actually that the purchase that increased my ear time the most was actually the MuSo QB as I was able to extend my system into a room that didn't have space for a full setup. Probably has doubled my listening time for a very insignificant investment. Does it sound as good as my main system, no not at all - but it provides incredibly engaging sound for it's footprint and is super easy to control with the iOS app. Accessibility is at least as important as ultimate reproduction in terms of actually getting to listen and becoming engaged with music.

The Strat (Fender) posted:

DUPREE posted:

Ithey already have a 282/NDX quality/level converged box in the 272 

?????

I did wonder. But life's too short.

The Strat (Fender) posted:

Harry posted:

Linn systems sound fantastic.

I'm going to say something controversial here.   I enjoyed Linn speakers back in the 80s  but I've always thought their electronics lifeless in comparison with others not just Naim.

Regards,

Lindsay

Controversial. 

One thing that has consistently struck me is that even when listening to something like The Clash or The Pixies, the music is somehow conveyed as if someone was out front conducting it. Naim tends to have bigger balls and more attitude. But I could live with either. Probably.