Power supply philosophy?

DUPREE posted:

I can say definitively actually that the purchase that increased my ear time the most was actually the MuSo QB as I was able to extend my system into a room that didn't have space for a full setup. Probably has doubled my listening time for a very insignificant investment. 

A remarkable little thing for what it is.  As the MuSo. As is a 552 or an NDS. It's nice to have so much choice at both ends. Is the former a pointer for the future? Very probably. And the future looks good. It is unlikely that my ears, let alone my life will last long enough to fully exploit the choice that seems to be evolving now. But then again, Naim will be going at it at all levels, so the option of a Statement level streamer might get here in time. Not that I'm any less than delighted with what I have today.

While a sum of money pumped into a good music system is without doubt an investment in quality/enjoyment of life, in money terms it's a huge loss. Not as bad as a car though. But that's OK. Each to our own

Harry posted:

The Strat (Fender) posted:

DUPREE posted:

Ithey already have a 282/NDX quality/level converged box in the 272 

?????

I did wonder. But life's too short.

I guess what I was trying to say is that having listened to both, that the NAC-N 272/XPS2-DR from listening performs on a similar level as the Separating things out into the NDX/282 and all the requisite power supplies and cables. Having done that, I would imagine in due time they can come up with a single box solution which is more along the NDS line, which I have also heard and is clearly better to my ears than either the NDX or 272. While there are techical challenges to making a single box solution that exceeds the performance of separates (PS and EMI interference, thermal concerns, etc), there are also huge advantages - shortened signal path, reduction of interconnects all of which introduce loss, simpler circuit design etc. 

This is why, from a personal perspective, I am glad there is so much choice in the range. More than ever. Choice is a good thing. Past that it's just a question of personal preference. 

Getting back to the OP ...

... but it is not just a single PS with Naim but a whole range.

Ignoring the differences in what we can hear, what is it about the range from XPS to ... to 555PS that is different an justifies the cost differences - purely from a technical point of view here, lets leave out all the ears and what you can afoord stuff

I know some fishy tales abound regarding it is all about what you can hear (which I don't disagree with) but I am also interested in the what and the how and want to go beyond the marketing spiel. Probably I won't understand much of any reply but at least I'll maybe get a wee bit of a handle on it and I can always do a brain reset if it gets too technical

Allan

Why is it that the people who buy Naim, knowing their philosophy on music reproduction, want to change, or question the fundamental foundation that make the brand superior sounding and also a stand out from the majority?

Here's a suggestion, if you don't like Naim's approach into music making, go buy something else and quit complaining about this so called "dated technology"!

It is what it is. Just my opinion!

Allan - I woud compare this to car engines.

Bare source - regular engine.
XP5S - compressor
XPS - decent turbo / perhaps dual one
555PS - ginormous compressor and a tripple turbo 

I've moved from NA V8 to twin turbo V8 this year. The turbo is inferior in a one or two areas that are key to me.

Harry posted:

I've moved from NA V8 to twin turbo V8 this year. The turbo is inferior in a one or two areas that are key to me.

Is it the annoying buzz.

You should try an upgraded fuel pipe.

Harry posted:

I've moved from NA V8 to twin turbo V8 this year. The turbo is inferior in a one or two areas that are key to me.

I'm on a 6 cylinder, tripple-turbo

Badlands - who is complaining?
We may be questioning, seeking clarification or offering alternative possibilities but certainly I'm not complaining. I could only complain if I had heard all the alternatives and combinations and arrived at a personal judgement.
Ok so we all shut up and stop contributing or asking about things we haven't heard ...
Forum rule +1 = only post about components that you have actually heard or used yourself.
Forum rule +2 = Only ask about things that are directly relevant to equipment you actually own.
... how boring

Adam - don't own a car
... and now see what you've started ...
we'll get nothing but car analogies now
... and if we're going to go that route then I'll just have to go and buy a Wankel engine.

I was actually being serious - what wonderful elictrical engineering magic is going on in those PS?

Allan

Allan Milne posted:

Forum rule +1 = only post about components that you have actually heard or used yourself.

When asked to comment on a piece of equipment this is a principle I strive to adhere to. It's impossible to stick 100% to it of course. Such is the nature of a discussion.

What's my opinion or conjecture based on an unknown actually worth? About the same as anyone else's. Nothing.

Allan Milne posted:

I was actually being serious - what wonderful elictrical engineering magic is going on in those PS?

Allan

 

I'm not an engineer, but as I undestand it's got something to do with a larger transformer. How - I don't understand that part. 

But I heard the differences.

Even my father, who has a PhD in system automation and electronics heard the difference. He explained the reason... made sense when he said it. But I promptly forgot.... he did mention transformers... I think....

Probably used the word regulation and probably also mentioned source impedance.

Edit:  OK, well the Polish equivalent thereof (and I'm NOT going to try Google translate! )

Huge posted:

Probably used the word regulation and probably also mentioned source impedance.

Edit:  OK, well the Polish equivalent thereof (and I'm NOT going to try Google translate! )

Possibly - although he lectured for 15 years in the UK, so as likely to use an English term as a Polish one without realising it.
I think he mentioned something about regulation and liked the white paper on the Discrete Regulator.

Huge posted:

Edit:  OK, well the Polish equivalent thereof (and I'm NOT going to try Google translate! )

I once did it from Polish to English and back to Polish - shocking what came out... 

But still my all time favourite is a use of coma in the English language. As in....

Panda eats shoots and leaves VS Panda eats, shoots and leaves.

How about...

"Fruit flies like a banana."

Huge posted:

How about...

"Fruit flies like a banana."

Brilliant!

Ah, I detect a little "mission creep" here!  I guess it boils down to a "Julian vs Ivor" debate.  Both had good ideas, both were successful but, like Ford and Chevy, there will always be supporters in both camps and neither comes out absolute best.

Huge posted:

How about...

"Fruit flies like a banana."

Or

"Kids make nutritious snacks "

there are web pages devoted to word ambiguities, some are very funny indeed.

As long as there are people out there prepared and willing to go with the power supply add on formula with Naim, Naim will continue with it.  If enough of us didn't buy into the whole power supply situation Naim would be forced to reconsider.

I doubt it. I don't think you understand how Naim works.. You either enjoy how Naim design their audio equipment or you don't. Their DNA is sound quality.. They will do what they can to achieve that at various different compromise points...

Some of the key Naim design principles are customer choice/upgradability, star earthing, separation, providing low source impedances and decoupling. Powersupllies are often sensitive to these items, which is why you will see power supplies with large transformers offering physical separation on many of the products as options or pre-requisites, and physical vertical isolation and decoupling in the Statement products.

Now i readily admit the powersupply can change the character of a component, and as an option, it ultimately is a matter of tastes and preferences to determine whether an optional powersupply is preferable or not for a component... if you like that is the customer choice...

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

I doubt it. I don't think you understand how Naim works.. You either enjoy how Naim design their audio equipment or you don't. Their DNA is sound quality.. They will do what they can to achieve that at various different compromise points... 

Some of the key Naim design principles are separation, providing low source impedances  and decoupling. Powersupllies are often sensitive to these items, which is why  you will see powersupllies with large transformers offering physical separation on many of the products  as options or pre-requisites, and physical vertical isolation and decoupling in the Statement products. 

Now i readily admit the powersupply can change the character of a component, and as an option, it ultimately is a matter of tastes and preferences to determine whether an optional powersupply is preferable or not for a component.

True.. but taking an analogy with space flight.  To get any where far rocket science is burdened by its own science ..rockets are just big load bearers of fuel,   The further it needs to get, the more it needs to store the fuel to get there...big large clumbersome and expensive means to get nowhere not really fast.   Unless some other means to an end is utilised more efficiently will space flight to far be a reality.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

I doubt it. I don't think you understand how Naim works.. You either enjoy how Naim design their audio equipment or you don't. Their DNA is sound quality.. They will do what they can to achieve that at various different compromise points...

Some of the key Naim design principles are customer choice/upgradability, star earthing, separation, providing low source impedances and decoupling. Powersupllies are often sensitive to these items, which is why you will see power supplies with large transformers offering physical separation on many of the products as options or pre-requisites, and physical vertical isolation and decoupling in the Statement products.

Now i readily admit the powersupply can change the character of a component, and as an option, it ultimately is a matter of tastes and preferences to determine whether an optional powersupply is preferable or not for a component... if you like that is the customer choice...

Within reason. Naim might be in a position to go down down the path they see as most correct but only up to a point. Bearing in mind they are no longer indipendent and have investors to satisfy. Even without that, I don't beleive they would choose a path that would knowling cause their business to contract to the point of needing to downsize the company in order to do things "right". If such an option was presented a) do things right but in the current market that means shrinking the company or b) take the lesser evil of sacrificing the design philosophy but keep everyone employed and am very very sure they would choose option B.

Add their relationship with Natixis into the mix and it may get harder. Contraction becomes completely off the cards and they may be forced with option A) follow our design principles but only acheive 10% growth or b) sacrifice those a bit and acheive 20% growth in the year. The decision doesn't lie entirely with Naim.

Every company I've worked with has been strong armed at some stage by even the most benevolent seeming of investors into putting aside core values of the company. In one case when that was fought, the investors had the CEO replaced.

joerand posted:

We live in a digital age where it seems most everyone is streaming (except maybe me). Class D amplification is efficient, compact, relatively inexpensive, and convenient. In this age/environment, the notion of PSUs on black boxes along with the associated cost and hassle of interconnects, power cords, shelving really seems pretty freaking preposterous. Beyond that, my limited experience with Naim + PSUs consistently leads me back to the same conclusion; the simplest system is the best for my needs.

I love simple.. The easier it is to listen and the more you listen the better. Music is what it's all about...

Emre posted:

DUPREE posted:

I would think it would not cost 100k to do something like that, maybe I am wrong. Part of the advantage of convergence is the cost should go down, 1 power supply, one box, none of the magic snow flake cables etc. I am not saying it would be cheap as quality never is. However they already have a 282/NDX quality/level converged box in the 272 which I have said before I think is one of if not their their best and strongest offerings. I would imaging that there would be a market and I personally would be very interested in a 252/NDS level single box 572 type solution if it could be done... That would be just the sweet spot I would thinks....

i think with 172/272 they in line with streamers rather then pre amps....  172 - ND5 / 272- NDX / 372 - NDS sort of logic.... also with the price point... rather then 200/282/252/552 hierarchy, just my amateur impression.  

You are probably right.... The tech inside the boxes seem to lean that way. Really the digital platforms are a whole different evolution for NAIM than the analog only. I am pretty optimistic, I think they have the most compelling streaming platform in the whole market place. As a fairly dyed in the wool LP-12 guy and record collector, NAIM had the first and only digital system that has taken me to where I really enjoy and am immersed in the music.