Supernait 2 without Hicap DR update.

joerand posted:

This a healthy discussion. I find all the responses valid and I appreciate both the pros and cons of the HCDR on a SN2. Ultimately whether you go with or without the HCDR is completely room, speaker, and listener dependent.

I just did a home demo of Proac D20Rs on my SN2/HCDR - too hot, too much bass in my room, quick fatigue factor - yet in my gut I felt these speakers were something special. Took off the HCDR and bingo! The overblown bass gained a truer, more realistic tunefulness and bounce. Relaxed maybe, but far more listenable in the long-term with greater cohesion in the higher frequencies without the HCDR. Speakers that were too big suddenly became relevant. Tap the toe to the max and headache gone.

My conclusion, in my room, is that the HCDR hits hard on all the hi-fi factors while detracting from overall musical coherence. The SN2 is already deadly fast with great bass command and the HCDR pushed these beyond comfortable limits. I'm more happy now with the bare SN2 on my current Totem Sttafs as well. It's definitely possible to get too much of a seemingly good thing.

Exactly my findings joerand, The current bare SN2 is singing its heart out with no fatigue and  great musicality ....an integrated sound all round

clintyboy posted:

joerand posted:

This a healthy discussion. I find all the responses valid and I appreciate both the pros and cons of the HCDR on a SN2. Ultimately whether you go with or without the HCDR is completely room, speaker, and listener dependent.

I just did a home demo of Proac D20Rs on my SN2/HCDR - too hot, too much bass in my room, quick fatigue factor - yet in my gut I felt these speakers were something special. Took off the HCDR and bingo! The overblown bass gained a truer, more realistic tunefulness and bounce. Relaxed maybe, but far more listenable in the long-term with greater cohesion in the higher frequencies without the HCDR. Speakers that were too big suddenly became relevant. Tap the toe to the max and headache gone.

My conclusion, in my room, is that the HCDR hits hard on all the hi-fi factors while detracting from overall musical coherence. The SN2 is already deadly fast with great bass command and the HCDR pushed these beyond comfortable limits. I'm more happy now with the bare SN2 on my current Totem Sttafs as well. It's definitely possible to get too much of a seemingly good thing.

Exactly my findings joerand, The current bare SN2 is singing its heart out with no fatigue and  great musicality ....an integrated sound all round

And is that because there is only a single rail and one transformer, since two reasons given for adding the HCDR is doubling up on each?  Perhaps coherence and musicality can be attributed to the common power source that seems to be more effective for some listeners.

Judge,

I'm not following your response. Are you suggesting that the bare SN2 has inherently better timing that is otherwise thrown askew by adding a PSU? Users focused on musicality appreciate the bare while those inclined to the hi-fi go for the HCDR? Maybe I misread the intent of your reply or read my own presumptions into it.

Nothing wrong with a super source feeding a nait or  supernait

if that's what he has I'm sure it works fine

see past threads on nait1 driven by all sorts of hi end sources here. 

People get way too worked up on mystical "what works together and what doesn't" and much of it is down to bad setup or inapproproate speaker choice in the case of a power amp. 

Rubbish in rubbish out still applies 

I didn't hear a lot of difference and concluded that £1300 would be better spent elsewhere. Like furniture!

joerand posted:

Judge,

I'm not following your response. Are you suggesting that the bare SN2 has inherently better timing that is otherwise thrown askew by adding a PSU? Users focused on musicality appreciate the bare while those inclined to the hi-fi go for the HCDR? Maybe I misread the intent of your reply or read my own presumptions into it.

I think too many conjectures here... 

Mayor West posted:

Not directly related, but I've just taken a Powerline off my SN2. I've made a couple of changes to the set up since getting it but now prefer the sound without. With Powerline, everything seemed a little bit forced, particularly bass which had an unnatural, boomy feel to it. Seems there's no real consensus on what SN2 likes and doesn't like! 

Just for completeness sake, I thought I would update that the Powerline is now back on SN2. Seems I was dealing with a couple of run in issues elsewhere which the Powerline was highlighting more than the stock power chord. Now they have settled, I'd say a Powerline makes an excellent addition to SN2.

Mayor West posted:

Mayor West posted:

Not directly related, but I've just taken a Powerline off my SN2. I've made a couple of changes to the set up since getting it but now prefer the sound without. With Powerline, everything seemed a little bit forced, particularly bass which had an unnatural, boomy feel to it. Seems there's no real consensus on what SN2 likes and doesn't like! 

Just for completeness sake, I thought I would update that the Powerline is now back on SN2. Seems I was dealing with a couple of run in issues elsewhere which the Powerline was highlighting more than the stock power chord. Now they have settled, I'd say a Powerline makes an excellent addition to SN2.

Good to hear your system is back singing again, I've always found the powerlines to be extremely good, and as you rightly say an excellent addition.

wenger2015 posted:

Mayor West posted:

Mayor West posted:

Not directly related, but I've just taken a Powerline off my SN2. I've made a couple of changes to the set up since getting it but now prefer the sound without. With Powerline, everything seemed a little bit forced, particularly bass which had an unnatural, boomy feel to it. Seems there's no real consensus on what SN2 likes and doesn't like! 

Just for completeness sake, I thought I would update that the Powerline is now back on SN2. Seems I was dealing with a couple of run in issues elsewhere which the Powerline was highlighting more than the stock power chord. Now they have settled, I'd say a Powerline makes an excellent addition to SN2.

Good to hear your system is back singing again, I've always found the powerlines to be extremely good, and as you rightly say an excellent addition.

Thanks Wenger. Should have known better to be honest but I held off selling it on until I was sure everything else had settled. Perhaps always better to evaluate one change at a time but I find I'm often far too impatient! 

Mayor West posted:

Mayor West posted:

Not directly related, but I've just taken a Powerline off my SN2. I've made a couple of changes to the set up since getting it but now prefer the sound without. With Powerline, everything seemed a little bit forced, particularly bass which had an unnatural, boomy feel to it. Seems there's no real consensus on what SN2 likes and doesn't like! 

Just for completeness sake, I thought I would update that the Powerline is now back on SN2. Seems I was dealing with a couple of run in issues elsewhere which the Powerline was highlighting more than the stock power chord. Now they have settled, I'd say a Powerline makes an excellent addition to SN2.

PowerLines make for good icing(s) on a cake.

Now that is a good description for powerlines ' icing on the cake ',  nicely summarised... regarding being impatient , I think your in good company...

Now that is a good description for powerlines ' icing on the cake ',  nicely summarised by Adam, .... regarding being impatient , I think your in good company...

Mayor west, Is the powerline still sounding good on your supernait 2 , was thinking of trying one myself !!

Clintyboy

clintyboy posted:

Mayor west, Is the powerline still sounding good on your supernait 2 , was thinking of trying one myself !!

Clintyboy

Hi Clintyboy.

Yeah, after extended listening I would say that it is very worthwhile on the SN2. I did the old swap test just to make sure and felt that overall, it is much better with. Most certainly worth an audition.

I liked the HCDR from the first moment I added it to my SN2. It sounded like it lowered the noise floor, bringing music into greater dynamic relief. Harmonic details became more evident and my sense of being able to hear deeper into a recording increased. Adding a PL to the HCDR heightened this sense and added some snap to the presentation, which increased the PRAT factor in my system, so that was a nice addition also. I was already enjoying the SN2 bare, so the HCDR and PL weren't turning a dull amp into a good one, but their additions I thought were worth it.

I guess that begs question re $ spent. A SN with HiCap DR and Powerline...

I wonder what is available from other manufacturers for that sort of money? 

Hi there, I didn't go through the rest of the posts, but I think SN adding thr HiCap is must, I been through this stage. Suggest to move/adjust the speaker position again. If your setup is sensitive enough, even changing a power cord need to tune a bit on the speaker positioning due to the changing the hardware or cables may result the bandwidth either goes bigger or lesser (depending on the cables and kits).

For me adding the HiCap improve in Sound Quality. The background pictures goes clearer, especially you got the CD555 like mine. Try another round and be patient to tune again your setup, I am quite sure you will get a better result.

Mark J posted:

---

I guess that begs question re $ spent. A SN with HiCap DR and Powerline...

I wonder what is available from other manufacturers for that sort of money? 

That trio comes to $9,295 USD, as of May 2016 prices, for what one could argue would be the best "Integrated" solution NAIM currently has on offer. Of course there are many other Integrated and Separate options available from loads of manufacturers for the same or less money. The Hugo TT / 250DR combo comes close.

Sorry but the whole external PS gimic screams of 20th Century HiFi dinosaur greed from NAIM because just about every one else has learned to do it right within one package. Or are the people at Devialet, for example, complete idiots?

Getting off the NAIM train is likely for me, not that I really got on much having just owned the XS2 and SN2. Their gimic is for the 1% who can afford to climb the ladder with ease. That's not me. They offer very little with regards to the VFM equation. Besides, the company's business model is no sign of the times and I have the feeling they're on the slow decline towards insolvency anyway. Unless they radically adjust their business model.

Quite amusing post

��

DynFan160 posted:

Mark J posted:

---

I guess that begs question re $ spent. A SN with HiCap DR and Powerline...

I wonder what is available from other manufacturers for that sort of money? 

That trio comes to $9,295 USD, as of May 2016 prices, for what one could argue would be the best "Integrated" solution NAIM currently has on offer. Of course there are many other Integrated and Separate options available from loads of manufacturers for the same or less money. The Hugo TT / 250DR combo comes close.

Sorry but the whole external PS gimic screams of 20th Century HiFi dinosaur greed from NAIM because just about every one else has learned to do it right within one package. Or are the people at Devialet, for example, complete idiots?

Getting off the NAIM train is likely for me, not that I really got on much having just owned the XS2 and SN2. Their gimic is for the 1% who can afford to climb the ladder with ease. That's not me. They offer very little with regards to the VFM equation. Besides, the company's business model is no sign of the times and I have the feeling they're on the slow decline towards insolvency anyway. Unless they radically adjust their business model.

Surely the bare XS2 or SN2 sound pretty good already. Adding a hicap to the SN2 only improves things. I think you would have more of a point if a bare SN2 is unlistenable, clearly this is not the case here. 

However I do agree with your sentiment that Naim could be more innovative, especially on the digital side of things. Understand Naim is owned by private equity nowadays, not a good thing as typically substantial R&D and ground breaking innovation end when businesses get brought by PE. 

DynFan160 posted:

Mark J posted:

---

I guess that begs question re $ spent. A SN with HiCap DR and Powerline...

I wonder what is available from other manufacturers for that sort of money? 

That trio comes to $9,295 USD, as of May 2016 prices, for what one could argue would be the best "Integrated" solution NAIM currently has on offer. Of course there are many other Integrated and Separate options available from loads of manufacturers for the same or less money. The Hugo TT / 250DR combo comes close.

Sorry but the whole external PS gimic screams of 20th Century HiFi dinosaur greed from NAIM because just about every one else has learned to do it right within one package. Or are the people at Devialet, for example, complete idiots?

Getting off the NAIM train is likely for me, not that I really got on much having just owned the XS2 and SN2. Their gimic is for the 1% who can afford to climb the ladder with ease. That's not me. They offer very little with regards to the VFM equation. Besides, the company's business model is no sign of the times and I have the feeling they're on the slow decline towards insolvency anyway. Unless they radically adjust their business model.

You are clearly disappointed with NAIM - and that's OK.
But please don't dress up disappointment in pseudo-scientific / business babble.

If you don't like Naim just be honest about it, sell the lot and move on to something that represents a good combination value for money and sound for you. Because only you and your ears matter when it comes to your equipment.

Good luck.

Adam

Added a HCDR to my SN2 about 10 weeks ago. A definite improvement straight out of the box, then the usual ups and downs over the burn in period. Now after 10 weeks it sounds sublime. More dynamic, tighter bass, better separation between instruments, quieter backgrounds to name a few positives. In my humble view a very positive upgrade to the already very good SN2.

phil. S posted:

Added a HCDR to my SN2 about 10 weeks ago. A definite improvement straight out of the box, then the usual ups and downs over the burn in period. Now after 10 weeks it sounds sublime. More dynamic, tighter bass, better separation between instruments, quieter backgrounds to name a few positives. In my humble view a very positive upgrade to the already very good SN2.

Pretty much my findings too, makes a good amp great and I couldn't live without it

phil. S posted:

Added a HCDR to my SN2 about 10 weeks ago. A definite improvement straight out of the box, then the usual ups and downs over the burn in period. Now after 10 weeks it sounds sublime. More dynamic, tighter bass, better separation between instruments, quieter backgrounds to name a few positives. In my humble view a very positive upgrade to the already very good SN2.

I found all these things too...but it lost a bit of its 'groove' along the way ime.

G

DynFan160 posted:

Sorry but the whole external PS gimic screams of 20th Century HiFi dinosaur greed from NAIM because just about every one else has learned to do it right within one package. Or are the people at Devialet, for example, complete idiots?

Getting off the NAIM train is likely for me, not that I really got on much having just owned the XS2 and SN2. Their gimic is for the 1% who can afford to climb the ladder with ease. That's not me. They offer very little with regards to the VFM equation. Besides, the company's business model is no sign of the times and I have the feeling they're on the slow decline towards insolvency anyway. Unless they radically adjust their business model.

different products for different people. Maybe you are a devialet customer (and that is ok)

One can always buy Naim used.

Yes Naim is expensive, but this was always the case, there were people who waited a good number of years (including myself) before they could afford a NAP 250.

But then look at prices of Classe, Bryston, Mark Levinson, Krell, D'agostino, Mcintosh, Electrocompaniet. 

Or look at the price of the latest B&W Diamond 3 speakers. 

High current amplifiers cost similar sort of money as Naim or even much more.

Hi-end speakers also cost lot of money.

It is also about speaker matching, one can enjoy real naim sound with muso-qb, or even with Unitiqute and matching speakers.

Now you are trying to drive 4 ohm revealing speakers like Dynaudio Focus 260, it needs a matching source that is very high quality, and then a Hicap as a minimum.

I know this because I have owned the X16, X32 and also the focus 260.

having lived with focus 260 for 6 months, I could easily pair them with a 552/500 and they would respond to that level of source and amplifier. In fact one weekend I plan to take them to my friends home to try them on a 552/500.

Yes  Supernait can drive the focus 260, but the funny thing is that F260 easily showed me the difference when I added a power line to my Hicap DR on my 282. What I mean is that the preamp section (control) is quite important for this speaker. The bass was a bit loose before I added the powerline to the Hicap DR.

Is there something about the SN2/F260 you are not enjoying? What is your source?

I have to say though it is a big speaker capable of serious amount of subwoofer like bass  (down to 32HZ), and really responds to better quality amp and source. 

Many people use Supernait 1 or 2 with a Hicap and that is enough of an amp with no further upgrades needed.

Nowadays I see some people trading in their Superuniti for a 272/250DR, and then adding (maybe) XPSDR or PS555 and calling it a day, enough of a hi-fi for life.

yes expensive, but then when you buy a 40,000 dollar car, it depreciates the day you buy it, and very few people ever regret buying a sports car like BMW.