Three improvements

Do you wish to retain the CDP?  If so I would seek a 2nd hand XPS for the DAC and a 2nd hand 282/HC instead of the 152/FC.  Different NAP and speakers later.  

Good luck.

I was set on getting started with streaming but the firmware update on the ndac has left me reluctant to offload it.  I'm quite happy with cd at the moment. 

I would prefer to try and make a one off change rather than hankering after more upgrades over time (got more guitars to buy)!!!!

I guess there are always compromises to contend with until you reach the top which is out of reach for me and most I guess. The trick is getting to place where your happy to stop. 

I've always been cautious about buying second hand but obviously many people do without any problems  

Hi Stuart

I can comment on your speakers with SN2. I used to own Motive 2 and they were outstanding drven by the SN2 and I enjoyed every aspect of the sound. I then had the opportunity to upgrade to the latest Motive SX2 and the sound got even better. The SX2 is a significant upgrade over the old 2. You get more transparency overall and more silky smooth highs in comparison with tighter bass.

Moussa

If you have such a great dealer, why not just spend some time there and decide?  It seems that you are after specific things that I never think about - do you actually enjoy music on your system at the moment? Maybe that's enough? Are you searching for a holy grail that doesn't exist? Will upgrading actually make you more satisfied? 

Moussa posted:

Hi Stuart

I can comment on your speakers with SN2. I used to own Motive 2 and they were outstanding drven by the SN2 and I enjoyed every aspect of the sound. I then had the opportunity to upgrade to the latest Motive SX2 and the sound got even better. The SX2 is a significant upgrade over the old 2. You get more transparency overall and more silky smooth highs in comparison with tighter bass.

Moussa

Thanks Moussa

I did consider the sx2 but thought it more of a sideways move. However you have obviously noted a significant improvement and they may well be worth a listen. I also considered the momentum sx3i but being rear ported I may have problems with placement. 

sn 2 with hicap is a great amp

to go for the 282 I would first go for CDX 2 if you can afford it use it with a XPS

i just picked up a ex dem CDX 2 for £3600 and a ex dem XPS for £3300

my next move will be the 282 + 250

my dealer has  a 282 for £3300

but until funds allow I will stick with my supernait 2 with hicap

i only got the CDX 2 and XPS yesterday evening so I am not expecting any vast improvement over my CD5 XS with hicap for a week or two.

Hungryhalibut posted:

If you have such a great dealer, why not just spend some time there and decide?  It seems that you are after specific things that I never think about - do you actually enjoy music on your system at the moment? Maybe that's enough? Are you searching for a holy grail that doesn't exist? Will upgrading actually make you more satisfied? 

Hi Hh 

I have had a few demos over the last couple of months and will do more in the new year  

I do really enjoy my system and like most of us am looking for improvements in certain areas that would enhance my enjoyment 

I am totally realistic in terms what I would like and what I might end up with in relation to my budget. I recognise things will never be perfect but hopefully improved.   

Having been in numerous bands since my teens I have developed the habit of listening to music in terms of what each musician is  playing and how they are plying it. This is something that is important but I'm not on an endless search for perfection.... I can't afford that!! 

Regards 

Yes, it's tricky when there are so many options. I just went for something on the basis that it would have no more than two mains leads, and didn't even listen to it beforehand. Then I got some secondhand speakers that are absolutely brilliant - I'd owned some before so knew they were good - added a few swanky wires and forgot about it. If you listen hard it will of course do your three things but is just so musical and enjoyable and I never even think about them. 

You can overthink these things, and everyone will say something different and at the end of the day you often need to go on gut instinct. 

Neat motive 2 were my first naim speakers and they were great, try them with 272 based system and 200s

272 is an VFM option or used 200s with hicap and then 272, cd will sing with ndac 

Naim hiline = 1. refined treble + 2. distinct bass + 3. better separation

They're pretty cheap used.  

I do think you should ultimately buy a proper equipment stand as well - Quadraspire racks are very good and rather affordable.  Strongly recommended.  

Hi Stuart

If you like the Neat sound, I would stick with it. Personally I rather like the SX1 -- great soundstage and certainly a balanced sound with Naim. Down-firing ports make them relatively easy to position. I tried PMC -- the old Twenty and the new Twenty5 series -- great speakers too, but to my ears the treble is a bit harsh. I mainly listen to classical music, and something like Allegri's Miserere doesn't really work well with PMC.... 

T 

If I had your system and liked it as you say you do, and assuming you are running the CD5XS through the Naim DAC, I would try any of the Naim PSs on the DAC, or I would slot in a 202 or 282 on demo, to see if the effect is what I was looking for.  Sometimes it isn't, but the result is often positive in unexpected ways.

Nick

It's always a bit tricky to decide where to make changes, in a system that looks pretty well balanced just now. If you want to make the move to streaming, I would consider swapping your CD player for an NDX, and playing that into the NDAC. However, you might first benefit from buying a NAS and starting to rip your CD collection, so that when the streamer arrives, you have at least some of your collection ripped and ready to go.

The other option would be to upgrade the preamp to 202 or 282, then you are likely to want to add a Hicap  (or change the 155 for a 200DR) to get the best from them. 

Which of the 2 options works best for you is something you can decide with the help of your dealer.

It's also useful to consider the lifestyle choice - do you want six or seven boxes, or only two or three - as that may help in choosing the direction. 

Thanks everyone 

I have considered a new stand but I think my DIY rack isn't a bad effort.  obviously not as good as a commercial rack. I've always thought this would be one of the last purchases I made once I wasn't far off my end goal - to refine the sound even further.  This may be the wrong philosophy.  

I've read numerous threads regarding the hiline in the past and considered its benefits better suited to higher level equipment. I may be entirely wrong and it would be easy enough to try one. 

Initially my intention was to reduce the boxes but I'm happy with 5 shelves worth. Less would be OK  

I've recently listened to a cdx2 as part of a demo and it is a great cdp but I didn't feel it was better than the 5xs with ndac  

It would be great to move to a 282 but I can't help thinking I would then hanker after a 250 and it all becomes out of reach  as I do want to stop at some point - honestly?! 

Also worth trying xpsdr for dac  

I've tried to xp5 previously and didn't think it made a huge improvement.

Thanks again for all your suggestions 

Stuart, can you post photos of your rack?  It might be really good or maybe not.  Tap on the rack shelf (glass on which component sits, for example) with your finger tip.  If the shelf rings (vibrates) at bass frequencies, then this could cause "mudyness" in the bass, and reduce articulation and separation of musical notes.  Also tap near one of the three supported corners of a shelf.  It should sound tight.  If there is any rattling, this can seriously degrade articulation, note separation, and make treble sound harsh - and the harshness will get worse at higher music volume.  What? Your rack doesnt have three point support or glass shelves?  Hmmmmm......

While putting an XPS on the DAC, as has been sensibly suggested, will potentially pay dividends in the three areas you seek to improve - these improvements will not be fully realized if you rack is misbehaving.

You have a good system, and it deserves a proper rack to deliver its best.  I hope your rack is already that good, but if it is not then it should be improved before investing in upgrades.  Perhaps you dealer could pay a house call and help you assess the situation.

Charlie

Stuart - surprised no one has suggested this yet. You need 555PS (non-DR) on your nDAC. This will take your digital playback system to a completely new level addressing issues from points 1, 2 and 3.

Cost? Good, serviced examples can be had for around £2600 from a reputable dealer.

I'd say it would be lost on the amp and speakers. 

Hungryhalibut posted:

I'd say it would be lost on the amp and speakers. 

Ahhh - yes - the amp - missed that part. Hmmmm... 

SuperNait2 will work well, but that allmost calls for a HiCap DR. A lot of boxes.

To quote from The Police - 'every girl I go out with becomes my mother in the end'. Meaning - he really needs N272 + NAP250dr

Certainly a difficult decision to make. Eventually any upgrade to a better source or amplifier will yield the improvements that you are seeking. For the three aspects that you intend to improve, they can be achieved by a source, amplifier or rack upgrade, or a combination of any of these things. From my opinion and personal experience, refinement in the treble is more toward the source, but it can be due to other factors as well such as rack, cables etc. Better quality bass in texture and definition and the separation of instruments, these are more toward amplification (pre and power). In the end it is the sum of the components that will contribute to the overall sound quality.

You can receive good recommendations as a guideline but eventually you will need to decide on the best option with your own ears, to be able to make the most cost-effective upgrade and get the best out of your money. I believe this is the goal for everyone. It is good to hear that you know what you want to achieve in your system with your given budget, and that a perfect sound does not exist.

A word on hifi racks. The system will surely benefit from a good rack and it's just a matter of getting the best out of your money, as usual. It's a subjective thing when it comes to the degree of improvement a good rack is able to bring to the system. Some say the improvements are massive, some feel the improvements are subtle, and some don't care at all. Case in point :-

Good luck.

ryder. posted:

That's the first photo I've ever seen on the forum where the amp is the right way round on the rack! (Shame about the speaker cables, though)

CharlieP posted:

Tap on the rack shelf (glass on which component sits, for example) with your finger tip.  If the shelf rings (vibrates) at bass frequencies, then this could cause "mudyness" in the bass, and reduce articulation and separation of musical notes.

Charlie, I'm struggling with the idea that you could ever produce a bass sound by tapping a small sheet of glass! I'm probably just being dumb and missing the point, but maybe you could elucidate?

stuart posted:

Moussa posted:

Hi Stuart

I can comment on your speakers with SN2. I used to own Motive 2 and they were outstanding drven by the SN2 and I enjoyed every aspect of the sound. I then had the opportunity to upgrade to the latest Motive SX2 and the sound got even better. The SX2 is a significant upgrade over the old 2. You get more transparency overall and more silky smooth highs in comparison with tighter bass.

Moussa

Thanks Moussa

I did consider the sx2 but thought it more of a sideways move. However you have obviously noted a significant improvement and they may well be worth a listen. I also considered the momentum sx3i but being rear ported I may have problems with placement. 

 

I auditioned the SX3i but they excited my small room 3x4m with bass. They SX2 bass is much tighter and engaged me more with the music. They just worked better in my room and I think momentum and ultimatum probably do better with power amps more so than integrated 

ChrisSU posted:

ryder. posted:

That's the first photo I've ever seen on the forum where the amp is the right way round on the rack! (Shame about the speaker cables, though)

The right way is the back? i dont get the picture, is the rack turned for photo purposes or something?  or .....  is it a "marriage ender", "instant divorcer", "siglematic" type of placement?   

Stuart,

I think you are wise to do nothing, or go slow.

My experience is the 112/150/FC2X/CD5X was so much better than my excellent AV system that Naim won me over.  But, a 202/NAPSC was better into same.

IME, a better pre is always -- better.

Nick