Three improvements

ChrisSU posted:

CharlieP posted:

Tap on the rack shelf (glass on which component sits, for example) with your finger tip.  If the shelf rings (vibrates) at bass frequencies, then this could cause "mudyness" in the bass, and reduce articulation and separation of musical notes.

Charlie, I'm struggling with the idea that you could ever produce a bass sound by tapping a small sheet of glass! I'm probably just being dumb and missing the point, but maybe you could elucidate?

You can get upper bass frequencies if there is no glass and components sit on softly supported wood shelves.  You are correct in assuming the lowest vibration mode frequencies of the glass will be in the midrange.  It could be possible, if glass sat on poorly supported wood shelf, that the entire sheet of glass and the supported component could vibrate at apper bass frequencis as a "rigid body."  This would certainly not be an adequate support shelf, and I am not suggesting that the OP's diy shelf behaves this way.

in any case, the amount of vibration and any sound radiated, are quite low amplitude.  My point is that one MIGHT learn something about the suitability of a hifi rack by tapping with ones finger.  If you have full fraim, try this.  It should sound good.  Then go about the house and tap on maybe some wooden shelves, likely unsuitable for hifi, and hear how that sounds.

Charlie

ryder. posted:

Good luck.

Love those Electa Amators... I used to own a pair, had them for 7 years.  Children used to post 'presents' into the ports on the rear... much to the surprise of the lucky chap who bought them from me  

It must be shocking for the guy to find nice "presents" in the ports.

About 14 or 15 years ago, I had the opportunity to purchase a used SF Extrema from a dealer. At that time, he had the Extrema and Grand Piano Concerto for sale. I bought the Grand Pianos as I did not have the budget for the Extrema at that time. From what I was told, the value of the speakers had increased by almost twofold throughout the years.

Unfortunately, while there is overlap in the cause of your three problems, I suspect that the largest cause in each case is from a different aspect of the 'system'.

1  The Neat Motives don't have the most refined treble out there.  They are  optimised for excitement and musical energy rather than resolution and smoothness, and at the budget concerned, that means there has to be an 'engineering compromise' in HF refinement.  You may be able to make some changes here by altering the 'toe in' of the speakers and/or putting absorbing material at the 'first reflection points' on the side walls.  Failing that you may need to find speakers that 'fit' better for you (but this can be a very tough challenge if you particularly like the presentation of the your current speakers).

2  The biggest factor here is likely to be room resonances.  Have you done anything to actually measure the response of the room (without this info we're really all guessing on the bass front)?  Do you have any bass traps?  The other place you may look to improve this (after measuring the room and adding any bass traps needed) is with the pre-amp; in Naim systems the pre has a profound effect on the overall 'shape' of the sound envelope.

3  This is a very typical limitation in preamps and source components, upgrading the pre will almost certainly help here (with the NDAC, your source is certainly up to the job for even a much better amp than you currently use).

Thanks for all the input 

I will try and post some pics tonight of the rack and room. I am pretty sure I have optimised speaker position although moving them away from the rear wall may help with bass definition. At the moment they are approx 15-20cm, I will try 20-30. 

My inclination has been to improve the amplification and I haven't heard the supernait 2, this is on the list of the next round of demos. I wonder if anyone has moved from xs separates to s/n2 and can comment on the difference. A home demo will be requested of course. 

A trade in for the s/n2 would also allow funds for a rack if mine isn't up to the job and new speakers. I do enjoy the presentation of the Neats - very dynamic and giving a feeling of listening to a live performance. Maybe the newer versions would give me some of the  improvements I'm  looking for.

I certainly haven't taken any acoustic measurements. Not sure where to start with this really but would be interested in trying this out. I will have a search for previous posts to point me in the right direction  

Thanks 

CharlieP posted:

ChrisSU posted:

CharlieP posted:

Tap on the rack shelf (glass on which component sits, for example) with your finger tip.  If the shelf rings (vibrates) at bass frequencies, then this could cause "mudyness" in the bass, and reduce articulation and separation of musical notes.

Charlie, I'm struggling with the idea that you could ever produce a bass sound by tapping a small sheet of glass! I'm probably just being dumb and missing the point, but maybe you could elucidate?

You can get upper bass frequencies if there is no glass and components sit on softly supported wood shelves.  You are correct in assuming the lowest vibration mode frequencies of the glass will be in the midrange.  It could be possible, if glass sat on poorly supported wood shelf, that the entire sheet of glass and the supported component could vibrate at apper bass frequencis as a "rigid body."  This would certainly not be an adequate support shelf, and I am not suggesting that the OP's diy shelf behaves this way.

in any case, the amount of vibration and any sound radiated, are quite low amplitude.  My point is that one MIGHT learn something about the suitability of a hifi rack by tapping with ones finger.  If you have full fraim, try this.  It should sound good.  Then go about the house and tap on maybe some wooden shelves, likely unsuitable for hifi, and hear how that sounds.

Charlie

Thanks Charlie, that makes sense, I think! Not that I actually have glass shelves, as I'm using Isoblue, but I might just go round the room and tap a few shelves some time when my wife isn't looking!

Emre posted:

ChrisSU posted:

ryder. posted:

That's the first photo I've ever seen on the forum where the amp is the right way round on the rack! (Shame about the speaker cables, though)

The right way is the back? i dont get the picture, is the rack turned for photo purposes or something?  or .....  is it a "marriage ender", "instant divorcer", "siglematic" type of placement?   

When the amp is facing that way round, the L and R speaker sockets are the right way round, so the speaker cables don't cross over. Apparently it's a hangover from Naim's early amp designs for pro use which they continue to use. I wonder how any thousands of speakers have unknowingly been connected the wrong way round over the years as a result! 

Stuart,

Your 152XS is probably better than my 112 was; but when I swapped in the 202/NAPSC for the 112, the effect was that the NAP150 seemed more powerful than before.  I had been told to expect this by my dealer, but did not believe until that day.  

Therefore, my advice is, if the amp is capable enough for the speakers, leave it alone and upgrade the pre -- which might even include  trying a HC on your 152, with and without the FCXS.

Nick

Easiest way to post pic is to copy & paste image into "things I love" in your profile & then c & p into reply (ctrl+c / ctrl+p)

NickSeattle posted:

Stuart,

Your 152XS is probably better than my 112 was; but when I swapped in the 202/NAPSC for the 112, the effect was that the NAP150 seemed more powerful than before.  I had been told to expect this by my dealer, but did not believe until that day.  

Therefore, my advice is, if the amp is capable enough for the speakers, leave it alone and upgrade the pre -- which might even include  trying a HC on your 152, with and without the FCXS.

Nick

very true.

I'm stuck with my mobile at the moment as laptop hard drive has died I don't seem to be able to add pics although I have added some pics on things I love in my profile if anyone wants to take a look  

I moved speakers another 5cm from rear wall tonight and this has improved bass slightly. Also hung a couple of table cloths on walls and trebble seemed a little better - not a long term solution but I have a few ideas - as long as they are given the go ahead  

Stuart,

Your rack looks well crafted and likely performs pretty well.  Compared to Fraim, it lacks holes in the shelves (which raise mode frequencies a bit, aid ventilation and reduce acoustic excitation); significantly it lacks the glass shelves.  Consider getting a sheet of toughened glass and place on a shelf with three capnuts.  There are threads that discuss this at length, and some (including me) report favorable results.  Try it under CD player, then preamp.  If that works well, more glass can be added as budget allows.  If you tfy this, please report how your music is affected.

Charlie

As table cloths have very little absorption and yet still make a noticeable difference, that does suggest that the the room reflections are a very significant part of your problems at HF.

My suggestion is that at the first reflection points, you use some wall hangings behind which you put some acoustic wadding (25mm - 50mm deep).  This will also 'tighten up' your stereo image slightly.  Yo may also find it very beneficial to put a diffuser on the rear wall behind your listening position.  To test whether this is worthwhile, use some more of the acoustic wadding (or a duvet!) and see what happens.  If the quality of the HF improves but sounds overdamped then you need a diffeser; if it improves but doesn't sound overdamped then you need an absorber (as for the side walls).

CharlieP posted:

Stuart,

Your rack looks well crafted and likely performs pretty well.  Compared to Fraim, it lacks holes in the shelves (which raise mode frequencies a bit, aid ventilation and reduce acoustic excitation); significantly it lacks the glass shelves.  Consider getting a sheet of toughened glass and place on a shelf with three capnuts.  There are threads that discuss this at length, and some (including me) report favorable results.  Try it under CD player, then preamp.  If that works well, more glass can be added as budget allows.  If you tfy this, please report how your music is affected.

Charlie

 

Thanks Charlie

I did try tapping the shelves and they do seem to have some lower frequency resonance (I think). cutting some holes in the shelves will be worth a try.

I have seen previous threads on adding glass shelves and it doesn't seem too difficult. Part of me thinks do I just bite the bullet and buy a proper rack. 

Budget would allow supernait 2 and maybe 3 levels of full fat fraim. would this be overkill for such a modest system - maybe something a little cheaper would be more appropriate? 

Huge posted:

As table cloths have very little absorption and yet still make a noticeable difference, that does suggest that the the room reflections are a very significant part of your problems at HF.

My suggestion is that at the first reflection points, you use some wall hangings behind which you put some acoustic wadding (25mm - 50mm deep).  This will also 'tighten up' your stereo image slightly.  Yo may also find it very beneficial to put a diffuser on the rear wall behind your listening position.  To test whether this is worthwhile, use some more of the acoustic wadding (or a duvet!) and see what happens.  If the quality of the HF improves but sounds overdamped then you need a diffeser; if it improves but doesn't sound overdamped then you need an absorber (as for the side walls).

Thanks Huge 

The room is a little asymmetrical and as such my listening position isn't ideal. I will definitely check out first reflection points.  one will be along a window so a heavy curtain might help with this. There is a canvas on opposite side wall which i could place a panel behind. I may have some negotiations to consider for additional panels - I think I cam pull it off though!!! 

Given your current electronics, if you sort out your room acoustics, I think you'd get a much better return on investment by keeping your existing rack and investing in upgrading the electronics rather than blowing the budget on a full fat Fraim.

If you can't sort out your room acoustics, than the best upgrade may be speakers.

Incidentally, whilst holes / slots can work well in shelves on racks, the size and placement of them usually requires finite element analysis (or a lot of experimentation, or both) to ensure that the vibrational modes don't interact to give acoustically unfavourable patterns.  I'd look at nuts and glass or viscoelastic absorbers before cutting holes in the rack.

stuart posted:

CharlieP posted:

Stuart,

Your rack looks well crafted and likely performs pretty well.  Compared to Fraim, it lacks holes in the shelves (which raise mode frequencies a bit, aid ventilation and reduce acoustic excitation); significantly it lacks the glass shelves.  Consider getting a sheet of toughened glass and place on a shelf with three capnuts.  There are threads that discuss this at length, and some (including me) report favorable results.  Try it under CD player, then preamp.  If that works well, more glass can be added as budget allows.  If you tfy this, please report how your music is affected.

Charlie

 

Thanks Charlie

I did try tapping the shelves and they do seem to have some lower frequency resonance (I think). cutting some holes in the shelves will be worth a try.

I have seen previous threads on adding glass shelves and it doesn't seem too difficult. Part of me thinks do I just bite the bullet and buy a proper rack. 

Budget would allow supernait 2 and maybe 3 levels of full fat fraim. would this be overkill for such a modest system - maybe something a little cheaper would be more appropriate? 

I went for Quadraspire SVT in bamboo, which is £280 per level and works really well and is easy to keep clean. A good carpet with thick underlay and upholstered furniture is the nearest I've ever got to room acoustic treatment - it's easy to over complicate things sometimes. 

Thanks for all the input 

Plenty to think about.  First thing is to trial supernait 2 as I presume this should be a good step up in amplification from the xs separates. If this ticks the boxes this would allow funds for three levels of good rack - quadraspire, fraimlite or isoblue. This should leave me with a good base to build from.

Some heavy curtains should help first reflection points at one side of the room. I think the opposite side wall is OK with a large sofa. Rear wall could be problematic with a glazed door. I may consider some panels which I can store under the sofa and place against the door and rear wall during serious listening. I will look at gaining some knowledge in this area but the lounge will still need to look like a lounge and not a studio.

If this brings good results I will take a little time and try power supplies for amp and dac v's speakers. 

A new laptop is desperately required and I will also add a Nas drive and start ripping Cds for the Muso in the kitchen. This will be a steep learning curve as my computer skills are truly pathetic ie I have never ripped a cd before!!! Fortunately my better half can help here and I'm sure it can't be that hard. I just tend to find that I find other things to do - listening to music, playing guitar etc rather than sitting down with a pc / laptop. If this goes well an Ndx further down the line would be a logical step. 

I seem to be moving towards the ndac / supernait purely because I feel the ndac has added a huge improvement to my system and upgrades over time are maybe more attainable eg used hicap and psu for ndac / speaker upgrade. 

. I have considered the 272 / 250dr. The 250 in particular receives great praise but this route would involve ditching the dac and maybe goes against source first principals. Financially I can't stretch to 282 / 250 / hicap to add to the ndac based system so I think it maybe the supernait 2 / rack / speakers 

I may be in danger of bias before I proceed with further demos so I need to keep an open mind. 

Stuart 

Stuart,

It will not cost too much to try one shelf of glass with domenuts, likely under CD or preamp.  If the sound changes (and I am betting it will), you will hopefully learn how much rack changes can affect the music replay.  If no change, or it gets worse, you may lose interest in racks.  If the music improves, you can get more serious about a new rack - or just get a few more sheets of glass.   Consider the investment in rack should be a noticeable percentage of your total system investment.  Think of the cost allocation in a stack of Naim classic boxes sitting on full Fraim.

Charlie

I have added some temporary and improvised damping at room reflection points which seems to have tamed the treble quite effectively. A Christmas �� tree at one reflection point seems to have helped (I believe there was mention of this in a current thread re cdx2)

Tried contacting a local glazing company to order a glass shelf or two but they are now closed for Christmas.  A job for the new year. 

I now have a supernait 2 on loan for a week or two. First impressions are much better bass definition and control. There is a more 3 dimensional sound stage and improved organisation of musical flow.  More complex music definitely has more separation and detail. Overall more clarity between sounds and instruments. These are definitely the improvements I was hoping for. 

The high frequencies - I can now hear that the xs amplification seems to be slightly rolled off in the treble, despite being a little problematic at times. 

I can hear much greater upper frequency detail with the supernait. I think I am hearing more refinement in this area but this can become a little strident with some music. I believe this may be down to the speakers treble units possibly not transmitting this information with the required subtlety ??? 

I now have improvement in most areas but still want to have more treble refinement. My system has now resided in 3 different houses and the high frequencies have been a itch I need to scratch. As I said earlier I really enjoy the Neat sound but maybe I need to consider speakers higher up in their range (at least trying the sx2 with improved treble units) 

I wonder if 24 hours of being powered up will make any difference - will have another listen tonight. 

I had a demo of some speakers yesterday, and was very pleasantly surprised by the newish Quad S4 and S5 speakers. by comparison with most other speakers I've heard around their sizes and up to twice the price, I found them very very natural sounding, nicely dynamic and balanced and with wonderful refined high frequencies from the ribbon tweeter. They left me with a huge grin on my face and not wanting to stop the audition which had shifted from analytical listening to just giving me a really nice emotional connection with the music. Audition recommended.

DC71 posted:

I had a demo of some speakers yesterday, and was very pleasantly surprised by the newish Quad S4 and S5 speakers. by comparison with most other speakers I've heard around their sizes and up to twice the price, I found them very very natural sounding, nicely dynamic and balanced and with wonderful refined high frequencies from the ribbon tweeter. They left me with a huge grin on my face and not wanting to stop the audition which had shifted from analytical listening to just giving me a really nice emotional connection with the music. Audition recommended.

 

Thanks DC71 

My dealer stocks quad so I will have a listen.  The z series also look interesting. 

Will report back my findings.

Would members please ensure that you abide by the forum rules.  I have edited and removed some posts on this thread. If you're unsure of the forum rules, then please take the time to read through.  Thank you.

Finally received 2 x 10mm toughened glass shelves and place them on M8 cap nuts, one under cd5xs and one under pre amp. After varying position of the cap nuts I decided that dynamics had deteriorated. Removed the shelf from under the pre amp and noted a definite improvement. Overall improvement with shelf under cdp but surprised sound degraded with shelf under pre amp. 

I will therefore try shelf under ndac and reassess. I don't think any improvements will be made under flatcap but may be worth a try under power amp. 

I have considered trying alternative shelf supports such as vibrapods etc. Anyone had success with such products. 

Next month I will do a home demo of 202/200 and 282/200.