Three improvements

If you want to try something affordable, try 4 vibrapods with cones under an Ikea bamboo cutting board. I am getting very giid results with it, not sure it's the best but it works for me. A fraim is obviously the recommended solution but for more $$$

Moussa posted:

If you want to try something affordable, try 4 vibrapods with cones under an Ikea bamboo cutting board. I am getting very giid results with it, not sure it's the best but it works for me. A fraim is obviously the recommended solution but for more $$$

Thanks Moussa 

What components do you have on bamboo shelves? Do you use three or four vibrapods?  

Moussa posted:

If you want to try something affordable, try 4 vibrapods with cones under an Ikea bamboo cutting board. I am getting very giid results with it, not sure it's the best but it works for me. A fraim is obviously the recommended solution but for more $$$

Now try only 3 VibraPods and a toughned glass 10mm shelf instead of the bamboo

stuart posted:

Moussa posted:

If you want to try something affordable, try 4 vibrapods with cones under an Ikea bamboo cutting board. I am getting very giid results with it, not sure it's the best but it works for me. A fraim is obviously the recommended solution but for more $$$

Thanks Moussa 

What components do you have on bamboo shelves? Do you use three or four vibrapods?  

Sorry Moussa 

Didn't read your post properly. You suggested 4 vibrapods.  Adam recommends 3. Definitely worth trying different options to see how it reacts with my rack.  I was surprised at the difference a glass shelf made. 

Update

I now have 4 glass shelves insitu for pre power cdp and dac. Definitely all round improvements but most notably under cdp and dac.  

I have a 202/200dr naps on home demo.  Started by just adding the 200 to the 152 pre. This has made a significant improvement to bass, treble and separation. On its own this is what I've been after. 

Now to try the pre and naps. 

been there, done that 

202 will boost performance to serious level !

enjoy

Thought I would post an update which hopefully some will find interesting. Firstly I added 202, napsc and 200dr. Obvious improvements in all areas. The main difference I found was much greater body to the sound. I really enjoyed the bass texture and extension and much better separation of instruments etc. 

Upper frequencies also improved but still a bit harsh for my liking. I therefore Loaned a pair on neat motive sx1's. These were brand new and have now had about 100 hours so half way through run in. These matched much better. Upper frequencies much more refined and great mid range and bass. A combination I could happily live with. 

One thing to note is that I have read many posts regarding the 202/200 and many say it is overly bright and 'glassy' was one description. I can't quite fathom these descriptions. I found the upper frequencies rather polite and less forward than my xs separates. Much more body and less forward presentation. I found some lower quality recordings more listenable. 

I also found the presentation a bit more laid back and less dynamic which makes listening less fatiguing but a little less exciting. Also slightly reduced fine detail. I now have a supernait 2 on loan as a comparison with the sx1's. The sound is now more dynamic with faster less extended bass. Maybe less texture in the bass. More detail and atmosphere and more forward treble which is about borderline for my ears. 

I could live with both set ups with these speakers and with more run in time they should improve further. The dilemma now is which to choose. The SN2 seems a similar presentation to my xs separates but a step up in quality. The 202/200dr certainly has a different character and both have strengths in different areas. 

I used to be indecisive but...... 

PS anyone tried SN2 with a 200? I know a few have added a 250dr 

stuart posted:

stuart posted:

Moussa posted:

If you want to try something affordable, try 4 vibrapods with cones under an Ikea bamboo cutting board. I am getting very giid results with it, not sure it's the best but it works for me. A fraim is obviously the recommended solution but for more $$$

Thanks Moussa 

What components do you have on bamboo shelves? Do you use three or four vibrapods?  

Sorry Moussa 

Didn't read your post properly. You suggested 4 vibrapods.  Adam recommends 3. Definitely worth trying different options to see how it reacts with my rack.  I was surprised at the difference a glass shelf made. 

Interesting suggestion by Adam, when I have sometime, I will try 3 vibrapods with toughened glass. I have SN2 and Hicap DR on the bamboo with vibrapods and cones

Moussa posted:

stuart posted:

stuart posted:

Moussa posted:

If you want to try something affordable, try 4 vibrapods with cones under an Ikea bamboo cutting board. I am getting very giid results with it, not sure it's the best but it works for me. A fraim is obviously the recommended solution but for more $$$

Thanks Moussa 

What components do you have on bamboo shelves? Do you use three or four vibrapods?  

Sorry Moussa 

Didn't read your post properly. You suggested 4 vibrapods.  Adam recommends 3. Definitely worth trying different options to see how it reacts with my rack.  I was surprised at the difference a glass shelf made. 

Interesting suggestion by Adam, when I have sometime, I will try 3 vibrapods with toughened glass. I have SN2 and Hicap DR on the bamboo with vibrapods and cones

Please note that the front-right hand side is heavier (transformer is there). So you may need a VibraPod with a 1 hardens up from the rest. 

I recommend: no 3 for the front left and rear middle and no 4 for the front right.

Adam

Adam Zielinski posted:

Moussa posted:

stuart posted:

stuart posted:

Moussa posted:

If you want to try something affordable, try 4 vibrapods with cones under an Ikea bamboo cutting board. I am getting very giid results with it, not sure it's the best but it works for me. A fraim is obviously the recommended solution but for more $$$

Thanks Moussa 

What components do you have on bamboo shelves? Do you use three or four vibrapods?  

Sorry Moussa 

Didn't read your post properly. You suggested 4 vibrapods.  Adam recommends 3. Definitely worth trying different options to see how it reacts with my rack.  I was surprised at the difference a glass shelf made. 

Interesting suggestion by Adam, when I have sometime, I will try 3 vibrapods with toughened glass. I have SN2 and Hicap DR on the bamboo with vibrapods and cones

Please note that the front-right hand side is heavier (transformer is there). So you may need a VibraPod with a 1 hardens up from the rest. 

I recommend: no 3 for the front left and rear middle and no 4 for the front right.

Adam

Great advice, Thanks Adam!

stuart posted:

Thought I would post an update which hopefully some will find interesting. Firstly I added 202, napsc and 200dr. Obvious improvements in all areas. The main difference I found was much greater body to the sound. I really enjoyed the bass texture and extension and much better separation of instruments etc. 

Upper frequencies also improved but still a bit harsh for my liking. I therefore Loaned a pair on neat motive sx1's. These were brand new and have now had about 100 hours so half way through run in. These matched much better. Upper frequencies much more refined and great mid range and bass. A combination I could happily live with. 

One thing to note is that I have read many posts regarding the 202/200 and many say it is overly bright and 'glassy' was one description. I can't quite fathom these descriptions. I found the upper frequencies rather polite and less forward than my xs separates. Much more body and less forward presentation. I found some lower quality recordings more listenable. 

I also found the presentation a bit more laid back and less dynamic which makes listening less fatiguing but a little less exciting. Also slightly reduced fine detail. I now have a supernait 2 on loan as a comparison with the sx1's. The sound is now more dynamic with faster less extended bass. Maybe less texture in the bass. More detail and atmosphere and more forward treble which is about borderline for my ears. 

I could live with both set ups with these speakers and with more run in time they should improve further. The dilemma now is which to choose. The SN2 seems a similar presentation to my xs separates but a step up in quality. The 202/200dr certainly has a different character and both have strengths in different areas. 

I used to be indecisive but...... 

PS anyone tried SN2 with a 200? I know a few have added a 250dr 

It's good to have an honest evaluation, to know that you could live with either the Supernait 2 or the NAC 202 / NAP 200 DR. It is useful to note that most people hear differently, hence it is not a surprise that some might find the 202/200 to be bright or glassy (one even thought that the 202/200 are the worst sounding amps Naim have ever made). There might be some level of exaggeration too as in reality the differences between amplifiers can be quite small, certainly not a case of one amp rendering another amp to sound broken, no matter how poor that amp can be.

I know this would add to the cost but I would suggest trying the Hicap DR with the NAC 202 (or the Supernait 2) before throwing in the towel on the 202/200.

You found the 202/200 to have more body and less forward than the 152/155 XS. You also found the high frequencies of the 202/200 to be more polite and less forward than the XS separates. Your experience coincides with mine as well. Basically you would get more body and refinement when going up the line, losing some forwardness or exuberance of the lower range amplifiers. The higher range amps just sound smoother without the ragged edges of the lower range amps. Some folks prefer fun sounding amps that sound exuberant, the Nait 1 or 2 for instance over body, refinement, texture in the bass etc. of the higher range amplifiers. 

You would pretty much experience the same when you move up the line, say from the 202/200 to the 282/250. I wouldn't describe on the differences between those amps here since it's off-topic.

I don't agree all the way - I found the NAC-N272 / NAP300(DR) combination to be both more refined and yet at the same time more exuberant than the Nait XS 2.

Thanks Ryder 

I have tried to do some serious critical listening before I posted my thoughts. Last night I set up the xs separates as with all the swopping and changing I haven't listened to them with the new speakers. I have to say from cold and at low volume it was sounding rather good. A very underrated set in my opinion. 

Huge,  I have heard the 272/300dr driving pmc 25/23 and agree with you. It is a rather more expensive system however. I would happily go there..... alas funds will not allow for this. 

Moussa posted:

Adam Zielinski posted:

Moussa posted:

stuart posted:

stuart posted:

Moussa posted:

If you want to try something affordable, try 4 vibrapods with cones under an Ikea bamboo cutting board. I am getting very giid results with it, not sure it's the best but it works for me. A fraim is obviously the recommended solution but for more $$$

Thanks Moussa 

What components do you have on bamboo shelves? Do you use three or four vibrapods?  

Sorry Moussa 

Didn't read your post properly. You suggested 4 vibrapods.  Adam recommends 3. Definitely worth trying different options to see how it reacts with my rack.  I was surprised at the difference a glass shelf made. 

Interesting suggestion by Adam, when I have sometime, I will try 3 vibrapods with toughened glass. I have SN2 and Hicap DR on the bamboo with vibrapods and cones

Please note that the front-right hand side is heavier (transformer is there). So you may need a VibraPod with a 1 hardens up from the rest. 

I recommend: no 3 for the front left and rear middle and no 4 for the front right.

Adam

Great advice, Thanks Adam!

Just checked this out. Are vibrapods or vibracones better used with Naim?

I use a combination of vibrapods and cones with my Naim and non Naim gear. They make a difference but I haven't tried a Naim fraim as a reference so not sure how good they are. For the money I am happy

Will try the same. I have solid shelves on a high level. A dedicated audiorack in my living would be a prime candidate for infant crimes. Vibrapods / cones could help and look indeed as good value for money.

I think you should consider the fact that not all music is recorded/engineered/produced in a way that hearing the instruments separately is always possible (Steely Dan vs Sonic Youth). A well recorded and executed piece can be reproduced likewise on a good system, like the one you have. However there's tons of albums out there that do not exhibit these qualities but are great albums nonetheless. The thing you should aim for is musical excitement and involvement.  Trying to adjust your system to deliver certain analytic results in every recording is a pipe dream imo. I think you have great system that is able of very high quality playback. Considering upgrades I would stick to the "source first" rule (did you listen to that CDx2 wih an XPS or without an XPS?). Maybe try listening to Roger Waters, Steely Dan and Talk Talk for a couple of days until you can;t stand it anymore and just want to rock out with the Sex Pistols or something...

Good luck!

Building on TEF's post it's also worth considering that you can't necessarily hear the separate instruments when you hear it played live. Having music that stirs your soul is infinitely more important to me than being able to hear every instrument separately and knowing that the bass player is standing four feet to the left of the drummer, and five feet in front. There are systems that can do that of course, but they tend to be bought by people who prefer Hifi demonstration discs, seem to own about three albums and would probably run a mile from a concert when they heard what real music sounds like. 

You are both absolutely right. I think the only time I experienced this type of separation live was at The Sage in Gateshead watching Van Morrison. It is a fantastic venue and worth a visit. 

As I stated in previous replies I am not looking for an ultimately resolving system but just improvements to these areas. The variety of recording quality and styles only makes things more interesting and makes me listen to music differently. 

After much demoing and evaluation I think I have worked out what has been going on. Since moving house and with a new room I am now listening more near field - approx 2.5m from speakers. Previously I would listen at 4.5m and obviously room acoustics were different, larger room etc. To get a good bass response from the motive 2's I could turn the volume up to a reasonable level. This did cause some hardening of the treble but seemed manageable in that room. I have been struggling with this in the new room. 

Introducing the Motive 1sx has improved bass considerably and the treble is much more refined. I seem to be able to listen at a range of volumes and variety of recordings much more comfortably. Incremental improvements gained in required three areas. 

I have had the chance to evaluate these speakers with three amplifier configurations. 202/200, Supernait 2 and my current xs separates. My findings in this room are as follows 

1. 202/200DR NAPSC - extended bass with texture. Slightly laid back presentation ie not too forward or exuberant with refined treble. 

2. Supernait 2 much more forward presentation more dynamic and maybe bass less detailed. This seemed to a bit too much for near field listening but in a bigger room with more demanding speakers I can appreciate it's strengths. 

3. Xs separates - basically seems to sit between the two. For the money it really is a great combination. Doesn't get many plaudits on this forum. Maybe bass not as good as 200 but I can't find much difference compared to SN2 in the bass. 

I now have to make some decisions. I think I will keep the speakers as this has solved the most pressing problems of treble and bass. Separation also is marginally improved. 

In terms of amplification I could happily stick with what I have and purchase a purpose rack and maybe looked at room treatments? Alternatives could be a psu for the dac. I have also considered adding a 200 as this did improve things with the 152. I know 202 should come first but I am not in any rush and would be happy to wait and save for the next wave of preamps even if this is still some time away. If not 202 always an option. 

I do feel a pang of disloyalty as my dealer has been great in terms of demos etc but doesn't stock Neats. I am sure in the not too distant future there will be further upgrades in electronics which will compensate. 

It's not easy this upgrade malarkey - but then it wouldn't be a very interesting hobby if it was. 

stuart posted:

I do feel a pang of disloyalty as my dealer has been great in terms of demos etc but doesn't stock Neats. I am sure in the not too distant future there will be further upgrades in electronics which will compensate.  

Remember, of course, that Neat are just up the road from you, and a more obliging chap than His Bobness, I have yet to meet.

They have a wonderful demonstration room there, and would be only too happy to show you what's available.

The only thing I'd say about the speakers is: beware. I bought some of the original Motive 1 and they developed so much bass as they ran in that they had to go. Nothing I could do would tame it - total nightmare. I've never got reflex ported speakers to work in my room, so it may be the room rather than the speaker. The transmission line PMC twenty.23 worked beautifully though. And of course, the new Motive 1sx might be less of a bass monster. 

This is probably not helpful, but if you are thinking of changing electronics, it's probably best to do that first. A big amp and small speakers will very likely be better than the opposite. The Motive 2 has always been a more balanced speaker than the 1.  The other advice I'd give you is to consider used or exdem speakers. They are far cheaper and you can sell them on with little or no loss if they don't work out. A new £2,000 speaker today will be worth £1,200 tomorrow. 

dave marshall posted:

stuart posted:

I do feel a pang of disloyalty as my dealer has been great in terms of demos etc but doesn't stock Neats. I am sure in the not too distant future there will be further upgrades in electronics which will compensate.  

Remember, of course, that Neat are just up the road from you, and a more obliging chap than His Bobness, I have yet to meet.

They have a wonderful demonstration room there, and would be only too happy to show you what's available.

This is exactly what I did Dave and he was very helpful 

Hungryhalibut posted:

The only thing I'd say about the speakers is: beware. I bought some of the original Motive 1 and they developed so much bass as they ran in that they had to go. Nothing I could do would tame it - total nightmare. I've never got reflex ported speakers to work in my room, so it may be the room rather than the speaker. The transmission line PMC twenty.23 worked beautifully though. And of course, the new Motive 1sx might be less of a bass monster. 

This is probably not helpful, but if you are thinking of changing electronics, it's probably best to do that first. A big amp and small speakers will very likely be better than the opposite. The Motive 2 has always been a more balanced speaker than the 1.  The other advice I'd give you is to consider used or exdem speakers. They are far cheaper and you can sell them on with little or no loss if they don't work out. A new £2,000 speaker today will be worth £1,200 tomorrow. 

Oh no did you not see my previous post about being decisive?!!! I have read your previous posts about the Sx1's but so far the bass seems very well controlled and only overblown if the mastering isn't up to scratch. I would say 80-90% so far is perfectly balanced. They have obviously been redesigned to counter this problem with better bracing, new cross over components and altered port tuning from what I have read. I had planned to do a home demo of pmc 25/23 but this maybe too much speaker for my current amplification. Having said that cost wise with flatcap it's about equal. My head hurts. :-) 

I have XS separates with Neat Motive SX1s and I think it's a cracking combination.  It's stopped me thinking about the next upgrade for quite some time which has to be a good thing.