Pre-amps - slightly confused again ...

Allan,

I really can't help in as such that I have no evidence with regard to the Townsend.   

However, I can recall visiting a member of another forum who had a very high-end system built around a Wadia CDP with built in passive pre and 2 highly expensive mono blocks and equally mega speakers.  On a subsequent he had installed an active Moderight pre amp and the transformation was very considerable.  

My hunch is that your system warrants at least a 282. 

Regards,

Lindsay

Im just having a little read of the TNT audio review of the amp. It's an interesting little pre. Not much in the box. Maybe Max will have one at the Bristol show in a couple of months time. I'd love to have a listen. 

Hi Allan,
Given the calibre of your speakers, power amp & turntable, I would second the Strat's suggestion re an active pre-amp, namely a 282/Hicap or better.

The Townshend Allegri is a very different type of beast, being based on an autotransformer rather than active, solid-state or valve technology.  

Is this inherently better or worse?  As always, it depends on how well it is executed and how well the components upstream & downstream match to it electrically.

Jon Honeyball has heard the Allegri in some very high calibre & revealing systems (500 series Naim electronics + Magico speakers, if I recall correctly).  He rates it highly, so long as the adjacent components match to it electrically.  

I have yet to hear it, as I am content with a NAC52.

Worth dropping Jon a message?

Best regards, FT

thanks for the quick responses.

Lindsay - interesting.

Finkfan - I have never been to a HiFi show ... I have heard the Bristol show mentioned a few times in this forum - is it the "best" in the uk and worth the long, long journey for me to visit? If so when is it? ... have to persuade my dear lady to take me though

Ft -yes, it was John's mention that originally got me interested

I know where the traditional wisdom lies ... but I just feel the less you add to the audio signal, the better - absolutely no evidence to back this up, just "common sense" ... and we know how much that is worth

The fact that the Aleegri is cheaper than the active pre's is not relevant to me in this context, just SQ

... but then HiFi manufacturers are not stupid, so why haven't they gone down that route? Is the "raw" sound too much and we actually need some processing to suit our ears?

Hence this post wondering what experiences, if any, members have had.

Allan

Bristol Show - relatively main.stream but worth a visit.  But very busy, always hectic around the coffee and food bars. 

Naim normally showcase something    

Normally bump into a couple of forum members.  

Regards,

Lindsay

Hi Allan, Like Lindsay says the Bristol show is worth a visit. The Naim demo is always good. I already have my tickets for next year. It's at the end of feb. I've not been to any others as yet due to various commitments on the days they are on. Must make more effort next year! 

Bristol show is definitely worth a visit, the Windsor show is probably better still, but if you want the very best I think by all accounts it has to be Warsaw Poland 

I have an Allegri and think it is excellent. Max Townshend sent me one to try for a couple of weeks on a sale or return basis - that is probably your best bet for you to hear one with no risk. I suggest you give them a phonecall. 

Allan, after an adult lifetime of dicking about with various mix and match brands, I settled happily on Naim a few years ago. IME they sweat the small stuff, so that we don't have to. Good luck.

Chris

A numer of people are happy to mix and match the Allegri pre and the NAP 500. Don't knock it if you haven't tried it. 

HI Allan,

In a non-NAIM system, I ran a passive pre-amp for many years.  The FT Audio Little Wonder (Series 2).  No idea how similar it is to the Townsend, there are difference in passive pre design, but wanted to provide you some of my experience. 

I purchased it from a dealer who helped design the one he sold me and worked hard to pair components to it that worked well with his passive pre-amps.  One of the considerations he emphasized was not only output voltage of the source but input impedance and input sensitivity of the power amplifier.  Specifically that the input impedance of the power amplifier be very high and the input sensitivity be quite low.  I can dig up the formulas he provided in this regards if it would be of use or interest. 

I ended up pairing my passive pre, through his advice, with an amplifier with ~100k Ohms input impediance and around 1V input sensitivity.  My CD Player's source output ~2.35V.   This worked quite well and I didn't have to crank the volume to hear my system at a reasonable volume.  

One of the biggest challenges I faced was finding a phono stage that would output high enough voltage and the barriers I faced in this regards at the time delayed my vinyl transition for some time.  There were some options, Dynavector's P75, Ear 834P, perhaps even one of Creek's little phono stages at the time.  I'm sure there were others, but definitely not all put out sufficient voltage to make it work and the ones that did work were out of my price range and I 

Looking at your system, the 250DR's input impedance appears much lower (18k Ohms according to NAIM) than the input impedance of the amp I paired my passive pre with.  I don't know how that affects your journey, but it was one of the factors that was emphasized to me as very important when considering a passive pre setup.  Perhaps someone more technical than I can explain its importance. 

I always recommend an in house demo, but I think it even more important than usual in this case.

Best of luck to you on your journey Allan!

Nathan

Dozey posted:

A numer of people are happy to mix and match the Allegri pre and the NAP 500. Don't knock it if you haven't tried it. 

Quite right, I've not tried it. Nor am I knocking it. Allan asked for experiences that members have with the Allegri which you were able to give him but I clearly can't. Instead I tried to give something else, an opinion about how pleased I am with Naim stuff that all fits together.

There may well be other preamps that make a better fit with Naim power amps than Naim's range. I am not that into audio that I want to look for them.

C.

more cool stuf, thanks.

Windsor might be an easier sell and easier trip than Bristol, will check out.

I don't think Warsaw is a dooer - OMG I might meet Adam

Good info Dozey - I'll bear this in mind after xmas,

have a Linn Klimax DSM coming in for home demo soonest to try and make up my mind if the SQ at that level justifies the eye-watering cost for my ears. Even if it is an OMG moment (and it will have to be) still gives the option of a DS with Allegri rather than DSM but then that might be another difficult comparison.

Interesting that the home demo of a Linn Klimax appears to be very simple whereas with Naim I reckon I would need at least 4 boxes at that level (something like 252, NDS, PSUs) so that will have to wait for a listen at the dealers.

Crazy stuff, especially as I like what I've already got, just trying to get my end-of-life system in place for the rest of my retirement

Allan

Thanks Nathan,

Interesting stuff; the thing with the Townshend is that it uses auto transformers that are said to be more forgiving of the source/power impedances and can match with a wider variety of components than the traditional transformer designs.

The input voltages are certainly something I'll have to check, I only have 3 sources - DAC V1 should be ok but no idea as yet about any replacement (e.g. Linn DS, NDS, NDX) or my Linn Linto phono or my Sky recorder's audio out (my HiFi is also my TV sound).

Allan

wenger2015 posted:

Bristol show is definitely worth a visit, the Windsor show is probably better still, but if you want the very best I think by all accounts it has to be Warsaw Poland 

Warsaw is now the 2nd biggest European show after Munich - typically early November

Allan Milne posted:

 

more cool stuf, thanks.

 

Windsor might be an easier sell and easier trip than Bristol, will check out.

I don't think Warsaw is a dooer - OMG I might meet Adam

 

Good info Dozey - I'll bear this in mind after xmas,

have a Linn Klimax DSM coming in for home demo soonest to try and make up my mind if the SQ at that level justifies the eye-watering cost for my ears. Even if it is an OMG moment (and it will have to be) still gives the option of a DS with Allegri rather than DSM but then that might be another difficult comparison.

Interesting that the home demo of a Linn Klimax appears to be very simple whereas with Naim I reckon I would need at least 4 boxes at that level (something like 252, NDS, PSUs) so that will have to wait for a listen at the dealers.

 

Crazy stuff, especially as I like what I've already got, just trying to get my end-of-life system in place for the rest of my retirement

Allan

If you decide to come to Warsaw it will be a pleasure to meet up Allan

An interesting post - I'm curious how your Linn Klimax DSM demo goes - this is a serious piece of kit. Do post your findings.

Adam - will do.

Allan Milne posted:

 

Thanks Nathan,

Interesting stuff; the thing with the Townshend is that it uses auto transformers that are said to be more forgiving of the source/power impedances and can match with a wider variety of components than the traditional transformer designs.

The input voltages are certainly something I'll have to check, I only have 3 sources - DAC V1 should be ok but no idea as yet about any replacement (e.g. Linn DS, NDS, NDX) or my Linn Linto phono or my Sky recorder's audio out (my HiFi is also my TV sound).

 

Allan

My passive pre-amp had an auto-transformer as well.  It doesn't fully address these challenges.  I really enjoyed the sound of my passive pre, but some of the challenge around source matching was more bother than I wanted in the end.  

It would be the output voltages on your sources.

The input voltage/sensitivity is an amplifier thing.
I didn't see it posted for NAIM on the spec sheet, but someone probably knows.

I have tried the Allegri with my Naim 300 and it was superb. In fact I did a review about the combo,  but won't advertise elsewhere. I am waiting to listen to the 282 to help compare. It is a big hitter if you can live without the facilities. And if you want one for a really good price I know where there is one....not mine by the way.....

Allan - my latest speaker purchase is setting up for retirement.   As I say I haven't heard the Townsend but for me 282/250dr is a fantastic point at which to stop. 

Regards,

Lindsay

Nathan - thanks, we're on the same page, by "input" I was meaning the voltages input to the Allegri, sorry for the confusion

George - will be interested in your 282 comparison ...

Issue I have with a home demo from Townshend would be the leads, my dealer has done all my installations and I haven't a clue what plugs he has used for the 202 inputs so might have to change some of these to RCA; would need someone to do this for me (for casual readers who don't know - I'm blind), also applies to the Allegri->250DR link connection.

Hence my particular interest in members' experiences before deciding whether to go down this route, might just be too much fafhing about and I'll stay in the mainstream.

Irrespective of component changes, I still find it an interesting issue, as per previous post, that the big boys have not gone down this minimalist route - surely not for the cynical reason of selling high-ticket boxes ... I believe Townshend used to have another passive pre-amp (Glastonbury) that sold for over £9k)?

BTW Isn't looking good for the Klimax demo over Xmas ... might be postponed to the New Year

Allan

Allan

Well Allan ... perhaps Linn Klimax is not meant to be 

Adam Zielinski posted:

wenger2015 posted:

Bristol show is definitely worth a visit, the Windsor show is probably better still, but if you want the very best I think by all accounts it has to be Warsaw Poland 

Warsaw is now the 2nd biggest European show after Munich - typically early November

Next year I can as Well!  

Emre - more than welcome. I'd be happy to host you.