The Law of Increasing Return

Mogul,

saving thousands was not the object of the downsizing, you moved to another brand, the music is equally enjoyable. Now, your new gear costs close to €16,000, so not exactly what you take off the shelf in a department store. We can reasonably assume that you chose carefully. You seem to have known what you were doing quite well: wasn't it more easy to say that you wanted to leave Naim? To avoid receiving a 'who cares' for an answer, you specify that you are happy: good to know, but you could have been happy as well with, say, different Naim gear. So you wanted a change: what's it got to do with increasing returns? I know another interesting law: that new gear, costing less, always sounds better for the first week. But I sincerely wish you a lasting new happiness. Because you must be happy, otherwise why come back here, after some absence, just to say that you have no real reason to be here anymore?

Best,

M

I wanted to report my experience to the Forum because I know others are facing similar "gear change" challenges.  I hope others can approach such transitions with optimism. I didn't decide to transition out of Naim because I wanted different gear but for other reasons.

I don't know for sure but I think part of the reason that the new gear compares so well is that the new dac's are light years ahead of the one in my 2007 CD555 (more flexible too!). Esoteric are dialed in on the value of the dac and have designed/built accordingly.

Thanks for your comments.  

David

Hi Mogul,

Good to see you back on the forum, even if it is with non-Naim gear !

I was always impressed with your choice of equipment when I heard it a few times during my visits a few years ago. At the time you were gradually moving up the Naim range, but even with, lets say mid-range equipment, it always sounded way better than it really should have done. Probably down to good room acoustics, careful set-up and well-balanced choice of equipment including those Verity speakers ! I was also impressed with your choice of red wine ! A man of impeccable taste on both fronts

If you consider your new equipment sounds good, (and I haven't heard any of this type of equipment) I for one have no doubt that it does. You are probably in a similar position to HH, who dramatically "down graded" a few years ago, and seems to be enjoying his music more so than ever.

We (well Diane) comes out to Vernon two or three times a year and I usually join her for two or three weeks most  times. Perhaps later this year during one of our visits, we can meet up again. And I promise not to impose Linda Ronstadt on you !

Cheers, Don

Hi Don

As the new integrated from Esoteric settles in, I am astounded by the overall presentation and dynamics. The cd/dac not only hadles the cd's well, but supports streaming through a laptop, opening up a world of music.  I learned how to bypass the Windows features to run the digital signal untouched through the laptop and out to the dac. This improved the streaming quality too. Lot's of learning, fun, and good tunes!!

Be sure to get in touch next time you visit and I'll be sure to have better wine! It would be really nice to get together again. 

Thanks for connecting.

D

Esoteric owners generally like to put down on cables and supports as much if not more than paid components yes ! 

Not sure what you mean. Esoteric advocates favour cables and supports or? (I've believed in the importance ever since experiencing Fraim and Hiline)

Thanks for sharing Mogul, always good to have different perspectives on here and in fairness most of us are open to it.

SJB

Burn the heretic!

Pretty sure I could do better with the S1 series but I decided to book my spot to Mars instead. Gladly heretics are tolerated in space!

SJB thinks tolerance is alive and well on the Forum. I hope he's right. Otherwise...the burning cross...

I suppose those that are hooked on whatever it is about Naim amps that emphasises PRaT will want to know if Esoteric matches Naim on that aspect. Those that seek accuracy will want to know how they compare on that front. Any observations?

Personally I found a better source than my flirtation with Naim's, and then moved up to something phenominal, while my non-Naim amps haven't left me tempted to switch to Naim - but then I don't understand the fixation with foot tapping, though that might be more down to my taste in music.

Mogul,

Did you ever get a chance to audition the Esoteric MG 20 speakers?

I am not sure if they are still in production.

Haim

It's been a little while (2 years) since I was fully loaded with cd555/552/300 so I am going from memory. My impression of the Esoteric pairing, with less than a month of listening, is that it is equal or better in both PRaT and accuracy.  (Bring out the torches...). Seems to me that the current set up has greater dynamic energy too.

Like Naim, even Esoteric's  bottom level is not cheap and top levels are stratospheric. From what I'm hearing in my home, they are very capable. As mentioned earlier, I'm guessing that the dac is significantly superior to Naim cdp555 dacs from 10 years ago. So much talk of digital relates to streaming but we need to remember that cd's are digital too and flow to the amp from a dac.

I am not familiar with them. Ever since installing Verity Parsifal Ovations, I don't pay much attention to other types of speakers. These are fantastic and a move up would prove the law of diminishing returns!

mogul posted:

It's been a little while (2 years) since I was fully loaded with cd555/552/300

Long enough to edit your profile, especially the biographical section!

Enjoy your music.

C.

Mogul,

Perhaps in support of your post title, there have been a few topics here lately discussing the benefits of PSU's with Naim gear, specifically the HCDR on SN2. Having lived several years with a bare SN2 and then, in the past six months, applied a HCDR I've concluded the bare sound is better for my ears. Less hi-fi and more to the root of the music with the bare SN2. Several members have come to a similar conclusion.

This feeds into your notion of a 'law of diminishing returns with diminishing inputs', not only for direct cost but hassle of shelving and cable/cord management associated with extra boxes. I used statements like "less is more" and "too much of a good thing" to describe the value of the HCDR to me. My focus now is on the musicality and long-term listening without fatigue, rather than the hi-fi factor.

Having heard digital amplification systems from Linn and Devialet, I acknowledge Naim has no patent on PRaT, maybe just a signature. I've never come across Esoteric, but congratulations on finding a system that works well for you, and better yet that Naim allows such discussions on their forum. Happy listening.

Naim's portifolio is huge and give opportunities to increase and decrease box count and quality in a bigger way than most other brand's. With increased box count the cable world grows, so does the need of rack levels. If you're a person like me, that find those opportunities tempting, leaving Naim could be the way to go. 

It took me some up- and downgrades to come there, but I chose to do like HH. Buy a Naim setup with a three box limitation. Balanced it is also........

S

Noogle posted:

Burn the heretic!

Let the naimquisition fulfil the penalty.

This thread raises some interesting issues, including the fact that you can enjoy something smaller and cheaper just as much, that there is of course life outside of Naim, and that you may enjoy the sound generated by alternative manufacturers more. When I downsized I stayed with Naim - I've had their equipment since 1983 and like how it works, and never even thought about trying something else. I also find it interesting why people who have abandoned Naim decide whether to return and tell everyone about it. Is it to be helpful, or to suggest that those who remain are making some sort of mistake? 

Hungryhalibut posted:

This thread raises some interesting issues, including the fact that you can enjoy something smaller and cheaper just as much, that there is of course life outside of Naim, and that you may enjoy the sound generated by alternative manufacturers more. When I downsized I stayed with Naim - I've had their equipment since 1983 and like how it works, and never even thought about trying something else. I also find it interesting why people who have abandoned Naim decide whether to return and tell everyone about it. Is it to be helpful,  or to suggest that those who remain are making some sort of mistake? 

HH, I know Mogul. It is to be helpful.

Those Verity speakers are something to write home about. Blows the "source first" camp to the wind !

Glad to know you're pleased with your major change Mr Mogul, but I'm a bit unclear regarding your reasons for the change. In deciding to downsize was it because you wanted to free up funds, were you unhappy with the sound, or were you fed up with all the boxes? The 555 is an excellent source, but as you've realised and I also discovered it can be improved upon with the latest types of DAC/digital storage solutions, certainly for far less cash. I wonder if, before taking the plunge, you contemplated just changing the 555? Personally, I've listened to many alternatives to Naim but their amplification and legacy speaker combination I find cannot be beaten to my old ears.

Loads of ways to skin the cat. Good stuff Mogul.

Regards,

Lindsay

Until my  250s came back from Naim a few weeks ago, I lived happily  with my QB as a replacement for my Naim active system, and it is surprisingly how much Naim sound you can get out of that little box. Yesterday I played Mary Gauthier Wheel inside the wheel, a live version on the qb. Then I had to go in to find out how much better it was on the big system, but actually it was more enjoyable on the qb. This was Tidal premium so not top quality files, but a very good recorded track. Anyway it is nice to  know that there are much cheaper ways to get the Naim sound.

Some of the posts asked "why" and some "how".

Why: I'm anticipating the day of living in much smaller digs. 

How: The 552/300 went first (seriously ouch) and in came a Superuniti.  I really loved it but the Naim software proved clunky and the Verity speakers were not optimized.  The 555 was brilliantly good even with the SU.  In came a hybrid integrated amp (LSA Statement). And now it's been moved on in favour of the Esoteric integrated. I was pretty happy with LSA but the opportunity to pick up the Esoteric was too good to resist. 

The Naim Forum was extremely valuable to me in building a very fine set-up of Naim gear. Living where I do, I did not have the opportunity to audition before buying. The experiences shared on the Forum gave me information and confidence before making purchases. I've shared my recent experiences in the hope that some other member who is downsizing, for whatever reason, can be confident and leverage their investment in Naim to re-build a very good system, Naim or otherwise.

I stated in the first post of this thread that none of this is intended to be critical of Naim gear. It's brilliant and brought many years of musical enjoyment.

Hello Ardbeg10yr:

I have a bottle of that in the cabinet. It seems to be evaporating.



To your post I say:

“ Nobody expects the English Naimquisition”



Cheers

D



Makalu Moon