Naim app 5.0

I would not be surprised if Apple might have a hand in the untimely  'release'

Mike-B posted:

I would not be surprised if Apple might have a hand in the untimely  'release'

What makes you think that?

Indeed HH - perhaps some peeps forget the Naim app is a glorified/specialist web browser. Most functions will rely on the 'web' server - i.e. the UPnP server - unless its a case of reordering a specific view from the media server like alphabetically sorting all albums etc

Mike-B posted:

I would not be surprised if Apple might have a hand in the untimely  'release'

I think thats extremely unfair on apple.

The time delay from submission of app to release on IOS appstore is a few days, and was no different for this app. The fact that Core product has shipped to distributors worldwide and is about to land with customers around the world means that naim needed to have the app available.

Hungryhalibut posted:

Adam Zielinski posted:

Well... I'm glad I have my old iPad still available - the only Naim app it can run is the 'gren' one - reliable and actually easier to use than the new one

Note on app's functionality: within artist folder please add an option of sorting albums by release date.

Sorting by date is nothing to do with the app, it's down to your server software. Asset will do it I believe. 

I think you're right. I can see this on the app with Minim, although without user edits to the metadata, the accuracy of the information is questionable, to put it mildly.

Allan Milne posted:

 

this is very worrying as a prospective purchaser of NDS/NDX and a software developer of 45 years standing.

 

This should not happen - is the software development team in-house or has it been outsourced?

 

David Hendon reported that some of the bugs had been identified in the beta release - it is therefore unforgiveable that they still appear in the upgrade.

 

I am currently happy using the NServ app but even there some simple issues  are just stupid; for example, why is strict alphabetic ordering used - it is not rocket science to ignore the prefix "the " when ordering ... even worse is that you actually need to know the forenames of artists or composers since they don't order by surname - I would have failed my students if they had done something so crass

While otherwise the NServ app seems to work ok but these reported issues with the Naim app and that silliness of ordering in the NServ app does not fill me with confidence regarding the software development process ... do they actually do any code reviews?

 

... and then, of course, there will be the ultimate test of whether or not the Naim app is accessible to me using Voice Over on my iPhone - if it is not then I will not be buying any Naim streamer and I will be raising this as a possible legal issue since the app is the only way of accessing this equipment and by releasing an inaccessible app they are discriminating against me - absolutely unforgiveable in this day and age both from a moral and a technical perspective

... this thread has made me cautious about this now and I will have to have a real go with the control app in my dealers to ascertain its usability and accessibility.

 

Poor show Naim,

Allan

Hi Allan,

The dropping the 'The' prefix for me is handled in the UPnP server layer. 

I use Asset and there is a configuration setting for 'The' Artist & Album Handling, which I set to Smart, and it normally handles it for the obvious ones 'The Beatles', 'The Doors', 'The Cure', 'The Clash' etc. so you can search/filter on the band/artist name.

Simon.

Mike-B posted:

This rev was in beta testing & was work in progress as AFAIWC,  I was surprised to see it released,  & more so released without any public announcement.  I suspect it was released in error.

Maybe Naim released the 5.0 app prematurely because the Core is in the dealers for sale next week with the Atom not far behind and the new app is needed for the new Uniti range AFAIK.

Call me cynical.

Also, I don't like the 'pull-down' to get the filter entry box, which then relocates up and re-orders the screen as you start typing in it, this is poor UX/UI design, in turns of screen layout moving about as you are using the app - can we go back to having a 'Magnifying Glass' icon in the UPnP server source header, with the title of the Tree branch, and the layout controls (grid, list, A-Z ordering). This should directly open the search window at the top of the screen without the need to return to the top of the listing and then pull-down to summon the filter box, which then converts into the search entry box, which you wanted in the first place.

Also could the 'Magnifying Glass' search function on the homepage search both Tidal and UPnP sources, instead of just Tidal? Or get rid of it from the homepage, as if it is not doing a holistic search, it shouldn't be at the top level, and the searches conducted within the individual source contents.

If any of my designers/developers would had brought this functionality to me, they would of been sent away with 'go back and do it again' - but then, last job we are only releasing software to Merchant customers of Acquiring banks, some 2 million or so users and this current job, we are working a public facing Portal for Mobile Payments used for the purchase of physical goods & service, against your mobile phone bill to support the launch of this payment method. This is initially in the UK, for subscribers of EE, Vodafone, O2 etc, so plenty of them regular General Public, but our E-Money licence is passported for Europe so we are trying to build it right now before major adoption.

All working as it should here.

G

Crashed again - trying to access my UPnP library

I hope these issues can be fixed before Friday 23rd December, so that it is not like this over the Christmas period.

Simon.

nigelb posted:

Mike-B posted:

This rev was in beta testing & was work in progress as AFAIWC,  I was surprised to see it released,  & more so released without any public announcement.  I suspect it was released in error.

Maybe Naim released the 5.0 app prematurely because the Core is in the dealers for sale next week with the Atom not far behind and the new app is needed for the new Uniti range AFAIK.

Call me cynical. 

Maybe,  but far better ways to get an unfinished software released to dealers for demo purposes than the public App Store.  

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Mine seems to be working now - and it did take many beta versions before that was the case, but the 5.0 production version for me  has not crashed, frozen, stalled, exited or anything untoward - and it has  played around seven or so UPnP albums, streamed web radio, created one saved playlist and played six or seven Tidal tracks since I downloaded it yesterday morning early.

Simon

 

Just for the record, I have no complaints either regarding app stability. Yes, there are a few things I think need tidying up with the screen layout and a few other functions, but essentially, it's working well for me. Odd that some are having issues, while others aren't; maybe there's something about certain types of network setup that it doesn't like.

Re alphabetic ordering of artists and composers...

1. I use NServ with the UnitiServ so all Naim software, no UPNP servers here.

2. Even if I was using another server the control app should provide user-centric ordering irrespective of server settings, this is just good practice; there are not that many music servers out there so the app should be able to handle at least the main ones and take appropriate cognisance of their settings and provide what the user wants. After all it is a "control" app.

A visitor wanted  to play some Rimsky-Korsakov - had to go on to Google since neither of us could remember his first name - its "Nikolai" by the way

Allan Milne posted:

  

A visitor wanted  to play some Rimsky-Korsakov - had to go on to Google since neither of us could remember his first name - its "Nikolai" by the way

 

I agree that this a good example of specialised knowledge that cannot be assumed to be available on hand!

best

David

Allan Milne posted:

 

Re alphabetic ordering of artists and composers...

 

1. I use NServ with the UnitiServ so all Naim software, no UPNP servers here.

 

2. Even if I was using another server the control app should provide user-centric ordering irrespective of server settings, this is just good practice; there are not that many music servers out there so the app should be able to handle at least the main ones and take appropriate cognisance of their settings and provide what the user wants. After all it is a "control" app.

 

A visitor wanted  to play some Rimsky-Korsakov - had to go on to Google since neither of us could remember his first name - its "Nikolai" by the way

 

The Unitiserve is the UPnP server in this environment, as it is indexing the files and serving them, as requested by the UPnP Controller (the Naim app) to the UPnP Render/End-point (the Naim Network player.

So it during the indexing and cataloging that the UPnP server can determine whether it wants to reference Albums by Artist name, Album Artist or any of the metadata tags available.

From what I have seen Asset is the best at this, plus the fact that you can easily adjust the Tree views, for the menu structures to display the library in the way you want. It was possible in Twonky and miniDLNA (or the one that comes with ReadyNAS) but it was XML based and the Artwork handling was poor.

Thanks,
Simon.

Allan Milne posted:

 1. I use NServ with the UnitiServ so all Naim software, no UPNP servers here.

As I understand it, the US does run a UPnP server.

Allan Milne posted:

 2. Even if I was using another server the control app should provide user-centric ordering irrespective of server settings, this is just good practice; there are not that many music servers out there so the app should be able to handle at least the main ones and take appropriate cognisance of their settings and provide what the user wants. After all it is a "control" app.

 

Is this technically possible? If the server doesn't show the information in the required way, I don't know if the streamer/control app can display it.

I agree about the search facility, to me it seems so primitive as to be pretty much useless.

jon honeyball posted:

I think you will find my review of HDX some years ago in hificritic was enough to cause an apoplexy in salisbury. 

Thanks Jon. That's interesting.

I always thought nServe was a nicely sorted and implemented app from the get go, and just got better over its lifespan.  Maybe its subtle but effective development came about from such criticism?

It's nStream which I've always considered weak. Or at least comparatively weak. The kind of feedback being expressed in this thread is typical and repetitive.  It seems to have been going at a steady rate and volume since nStream morphed into "The App". Yet I have never heard The App criticized in print or in the heavyweight online organs. So reviewers are:

1. Paying scant attention to the operation of the equipment and copying and pasting the press releases (which nowadays seems to pass for journalism - present company excepted Jon).

2. So well enamoured of Naim that they wouldn't want to seem churlish or rock the boat. And don't want to miss out on the next press junket or have difficulty getting hold of review equipment in the future.

3. Wary of dissing a "British" company with a big reputation bordering on legendary and a bulging order book.

4. Using a different version of The App to the rest of us.

Or 5. I am not reading the appropriate journals/reviews.

A not uncynical view I grant you. But I have to wonder....

Can anyone please explain the meaning of the little 'triangles' on the right side of the radio presets? I got the idea that another menu would pop-up...

many regards, Michel

The tagging order of the server should be irrelevant - the app can do what it likes with the information once it has got it - would not take me very long to knock out the lines of code required to extract prefixes or surnames from artist/composer names, and sort/present them in a meaningful order for the user.

( ... to Naim - my consultancy fees are very cheap:

The client-server architecture, in whatever context, does not preclude processing by the client unless it is a very dumb client indeed!

Allan

I think it is important to remember the sheer size and scale of the platform work going on here. Unfortunately almost no one has seen that yet. To strive for one app that handles the existing ranges and an entirely new platform is a huge undertaking. 

I am certain that naim are listening. And listening hard

The clearer and more concise everyone can be with reports, descriptions of issues, screen shots etc, the faster the wrinkles can be resolved. 

Really fun to read in this thread where some adult people with years and years spent listening Hi Quality music seem angry nerd kids in a PlayStation forum

Allan Milne posted:

 

The tagging order of the server should be irrelevant - the app can do what it likes with the information once it has got it - would not take me very long to knock out the lines of code required to extract prefixes or surnames from artist/composer names, and sort/present them in a meaningful order for the user.

( ... to Naim - my consultancy fees are very cheap:

 

The client-server architecture, in whatever context, does not preclude processing by the client unless it is a very dumb client indeed!

Allan

In that case, maybe the Naim app is dumb! It has often been said here that the app can only see exactly what the server sends it, sometimes by way of an excuse for perceived misbehaviour of the app. I was always a little suspicious of this, as I sometimes see small differences, for example in the content of the Newest and Last played folder, between N-Serve and the Naim app.

Chris,

You are right to be suspicious when this excuse is used ... it is not true.

It is certainly true that the client app can only get information from the server that the server exposes to it;

but the client can then process that information in any way it wishes before presenting it to the user.

In fact the client could, if it wanted, interrogate online music databases itself across the network - not recommended as this would introduce a lot of latency before being able to present a view to the user but no different than loading a web page in a browser - many sites expose web services for exactly this kind of software-to-software access.

this has been around for years - I recollect many years ago in a demo I wrote a VB windows application interactively with the audience where I connected to the then Amazon music database - couldn't do this off my head now though and the technology has moved on too

Allan

Naim (and other manufacturers of many types of products, including our new automobiles) have to dispense with the approach that the product is the physical piece, and the software/apps are in any way ancillary.

You don't send the physical product out to be released and then try to play catch up with the software. That would be akin to sending a CD player out without the CD tray. It is a package, and both the physical and virtual product have to work, pretty much flawlessly. Naim would not release a new pre-amp where the display only worked some of the time, and think, "Well that is OK, it pretty much does what it is supposed to." Naim's reputation has been built on its quality. Software needs to be held to the same standard as the physical product, and to date it appears to me it has not.

And this software doesn't even really have to go through any true load testing...the test environment should be as taxing as production in almost all aspects. (As opposed to software that has 10 testers, but must perform in a real world environment with hundreds of users accessing the code at the same time.)

And of course, Naim are beholden to iOS and Android "interference" as a result of their upgrades, but to date this has not been an acceptable state of affairs overall. These apps are not that complicated in the grand scheme of things - try hospital software if you want to see massively complex apps.

I am still using an old iPhone 4S to control my 272, because of the disaster that occurred with the Android app after a OS upgrade from Google. I would like to re-load the Android app and see if it has improved performance. Not sure if it is OK to have both apps running on the network at the same time or not...and I see where my phone is telling me the OS has a new release (7.1) to download and install, so then that further complicates things.

This must all be very amusing (in a dark humor sort of way) to the vinyl crowd!

Dr Mark

There is no problem running multiple apps on Android and on IOS but you can only ever have one of them talking to your servers at any moment. So you will need to navigate away from one app before you try to use the other (this is true of two or more IOS apps for example).

The IOS app is by general assent better than the Android app though....

best

David