Naim 250

Hi [@mention:69004037280266677]. Is the amp new? 

Good evening Craig.  Is this a pre DR 250 which did have a reputation for being a bit shall we say murky.  That said it should rock out on stuff like Exile. The obvious question is speaker placement?  On my iPhone I can't see your profile but what is the rest of your system? 

I have a DR 250 and last night I dug out Elephant by the White Stripes and it was awesome - certainly none of the traits you mention 

Regards,

Lindsay

Welcome to the forum. Sorry to read of your problem with arguably Naim's most iconic product.

Are the B&Ws the same speakers you used with your Quad amp? For that matter, what is your full system now, including supports, and all cables? How big is your room? How is it furnished? Where are your speakers placed in relation to back and side walls?

Chris

Naim power amps tend to work best with Naim pre-amps. There is a certain syngergy which is hard to replicate otherwise.

What are you driving the NAP with?

If it's pre-loved do you know if it's been serviced in the last 10 years?

The 250 can only amplify what it's given. What is  your 'streaming device'? 

If the amp has been swapped that implies a dealer. Did you have a chance to hear the amp before you purchased - I assume not at home, but at the dealer's? If so and it sounded good, whatbare the differences between that system and yours 

From the original post it sounds as if the 'streaming device' is also new to you  - did you have a chance to hear it through your Quad? In other words, can you be sure it is the amp not the streamer that is causing the problem?  

craig's posted:

Having just bought a Naim 250 and streaming device, every review and every post says the amp is great, but... it's running B&W CM10s, and sounds amazing on some jazz records, and singer-songwriter type records, but when it comes to any great rock record, it doesn't handle it at all. I have had the amp swapped, but sounds no better. Classic records like Marquee Moon, Exile on Main St, most stuff by R.E.M., Teenage Fanclub, Pixies - all sound truly terrible. The bass booms, the vocal is murky, everything is lost in a big ugly soup of a mix. Great records I have loved my whole life are suddenly rubbish. 

Can anyone tell me where I am going wrong? Right now this Naim is the worst amp I have ever heard. Previously I owned a Quad.

I bought a 250 in 1989 and used it (with servicing) until 18 months ago.Although  It boogies like mad it is not by any means the last word in finesse; but it does not produce a sound that is murky and boomy. You don't say whether your 250 is a new DR model or a used example.  If it's a few years old it may need a service, but what you're describing sounds like problems elsewhere in the system; I've never been a B&W fan - but that's not your problem

In answer to your last question - in terms of VFM the 250 is arguably the BEST amp Naim ever produced IMHO

Craig, to better help out here, perhaps you can give us a better idea of the system, setup, and relatively Naim-critical things like cabling (particularly speaker cable, length, termination etc..).  Did your dealer come to you to install the system?

As you will gather from reading posts from other members here with similar electronics, your experience is not at all a typical one.  Provided the electronics are working properly, the problem must lie somewhere within the system so the more info you can give here, the better.

Craig

Maybe the problem is the other way around. I haven't been listening to your setup of course, so this is purely hypothetical.

It could be the case that you finally have a amp which is driving your speakers properly. This Nap 250 is supposed to 'control' your CM10's and what I know from my Supernait + Cm1 (only CM1, indeed, but it has the same sound signature as your CM10's) is that when the CM1's are too close to a wall, they start booming extremely. So, I have my bass reflex ports always filled with the standard provided foam bungs. This makes a difference, but does not completely solve the problem. Only when I move the speakers at least 1m from rear / side walls, the seem to have sufficient freedom.

This could lead to re-positioning of the speakers.

Try to reconnect the interconnects you have. Hang them loose.

Ensure good speaker cable. This does not have to cost much. Sufficient stories on this forum when you search for speaker cable. If you post the cable brand / type / length here, you are likely to get response to that.

I fully recognize your comment about Jazz. Besides that, we does not seem to have any music preference in common ...

bluedog posted:

In answer to your last question - in terms of VFM the 250 is arguably the BEST amp Naim ever produced IMHO

Regarding VFM, I vote for Nap 100.

As has been discussed above - I think it's important to get a handle on everything else that's in the system too - what speaker leads are you using for example? How long are they? What preamp are you using? What interconnects?

My gut feeling (and anyone that knows me knows that'll be quite a feeling) is speaker leads as those can make a Naim amp sound really bad if they're an unsuitable load...

Phil

Possibly Phil I've run an old pair of BW CM2s with my then NAP 200 and it was excellent.   I'm more inclined towards the pre-amp - what is it?

Regards,

Lindsay

Ardbeg10y posted:

bluedog posted:

In answer to your last question - in terms of VFM the 250 is arguably the BEST amp Naim ever produced IMHO

Regarding VFM, I vote for Nap 100.

I had sold off my previous system and as I was rebuilding it I had a NAP 100 with a NAC-N 272, Linn Majik 140s, LP-12 and I will say that the NAP-100 is absolutely stupid good for the money. I was shocked at how great a little amp it was. While I was working my way up to the 250DR I bought a 100 second hand, used it for a year and sold it for what I paid for it. That was pure value.

All I know is that if I'd bought a NAP250 and it sounded poor, and I'd posted about it on the forum, I'd be checking back about once every twenty minutes  ..........

C.

If I had bought an amp and it sounded poor I doubt that I would be posting about it on a forum. I would be talking to the dealer and trying to get it sorted. 

murky and boomy, eh?

Craig, in addition to disclosing the rest of your system, you may want to ensure that your speakers are not wired out of phase. it can happen to the best of us (cough, cough) when installing a new amp.

I really would consult your dealer. The 250 is a classic amp, I currently prefer the non DR version, and it's anything but murky, being powerful, expressive and insightful with glorious natural highs... cymbals sound like cymbals, a soprano choir sound like a choir rather than a setting on a cheap keyboard .. no fizz or splash here... so I suspect as others have said poor preamp matching, speaker/room interfacing or as Phil suggest poor cables. Have you tried at least 3.5m of NACA5 which is often regarded as the minimum reference for speaker cable... again your dealer can help.

Quality hifi such as Naim often needs some care and attention on setup if it is to sound it's best, this is why Naim use their specialist retailers to sell it as opposed to selling Naim through  stack 'em high sell 'em cheap retailers who are often able to offer  little customer support.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

I really would consult your dealer.

If there is one.

C.

I believe you can only purchase new  Naim through approved retailers for precisely this reason..  I just think purchasing this sort of equipment without set up support if you are not familiar with it is just too  risky with possible issues like the OP describes... it's like buying a used car with no RAC or AA check. Can the OP find a dealer if they didn't use one, perhaps pay for a couple hours of time?

The Strat (Fender) posted:

Good evening Craig.  Is this a pre DR 250 which did have a reputation for being a bit shall we say murky.  

Lindsay, I would love to know where that rumoured reputation came from. My non DR 250 is the clearest, most dynamic and transparent  NAP I've heard short of a 300 or 500. Not a DR, no, but 'murky'? Only with one's foot in one's ear 

Loki posted:

The Strat (Fender) posted:

Good evening Craig.  Is this a pre DR 250 which did have a reputation for being a bit shall we say murky.  

Lindsay, I would love to know where that rumoured reputation came from. My non DR 250 is the clearest, most dynamic and transparent  NAP I've heard short of a 300 or 500. Not a DR, no, but 'murky'? Only with one's foot in one's ear 

Exactly right Loki. I also had a 250 non DR. And it was just as you describe. Where does this nonsense come from?

Loki posted:

The Strat (Fender) posted:

Good evening Craig.  Is this a pre DR 250 which did have a reputation for being a bit shall we say murky.  

Lindsay, I would love to know where that rumoured reputation came from. My non DR 250 is the clearest, most dynamic and transparent  NAP I've heard short of a 300 or 500. Not a DR, no, but 'murky'? Only with one's foot in one's ear 

+1
No murky non-DR'd 250's in my house!

craig's posted:

Having just bought a Naim 250 and streaming device, every review and every post says the amp is great, but... it's running B&W CM10s, and sounds amazing on some jazz records, and singer-songwriter type records, but when it comes to any great rock record, it doesn't handle it at all. I have had the amp swapped, but sounds no better. Classic records like Marquee Moon, Exile on Main St, most stuff by R.E.M., Teenage Fanclub, Pixies - all sound truly terrible. The bass booms, the vocal is murky, everything is lost in a big ugly soup of a mix. Great records I have loved my whole life are suddenly rubbish. 

Can anyone tell me where I am going wrong? Right now this Naim is the worst amp I have ever heard. Previously I owned a Quad.

What is the Quad amp that you have owned? Is it a 66/606, 909 or something else? Are you using the NAP 250 with a Quad preamp?