Naim 250

wanderer posted:

Some timewaster threw out the bait and we all decided to bite!

move on.

i suspect you are right... :-)

enjoy

ken

Massimo Bertola posted:

Why has he registered four days ago, done just one post and disappeared? 

Worryingly the famished flatfish seems to not have been around for about the same time...  He also has a 250 - what's the connection? 

Beware, if your amp starts to sound bad it might not be the capacitors, instead it might be about to aaarrrrghh

My 250DR was sounding ropey this evening too. 

I did wonder if it could be related to the playing of Michael Boubles Christmas album. 

trickydickie posted:

My 250DR was sounding ropey this evening too. 

I did wonder if it could be related to the playing of Michael Boubles Christmas album. 

Big mistake...... I accidentally put on my wife's Take That cd....the cdx2 screen said err and two pot plants died...

Innocent Bystander posted:

Massimo Bertola posted:

Why has he registered four days ago, done just one post and disappeared? 

Worryingly the famished flatfish seems to not have been around for about the same time...  He also has a 250 - what's the connection? 

Beware, if your amp starts to sound bad it might not be the capacitors, instead it might be about to aaarrrrghh

HungryHallibut is in Vienna for a break. Perhaps he has better things to do

ken c posted:

there is also the possibility that the OP may actually have no experience of the 250 at all -- and that this may have been a way to generate some traffic on the thread. There have been numerous examples of this type in the past.

i say "possibility" -- as of course this might also have been a genuine posting and i apologize for implying some kind of mischief here... But the lack of follow-up is somewhat suspicious....

enjoy...

ken

 

Ok - so I am not a fool, and I listened to lots of tracks at the dealers - but maybe was kind of stupid because I didn't listen to much rock. Nearly everything sounded great, though R.E.M.'s 'Circus envy' sounded quite horrible. I thought it was just an anomaly. 

Really don't think it's the setup, otherwise why would some things sound great??? Angel Olsen sounds amazing, Kate bush sounds great. But The strokes tonight...!!! Sounds better thru my IPhone speaker than the system - flat, murky, overwhelmed by bass - horrible!

Can someone help me understand that? Yes, I have contacted the dealer but it's a 150m round trip... 

the Naim streamer and amp are both new. The speakers are 6 months old.

Adam Meredith posted:

craig's posted:

Right now this Naim is the worst amp I have ever heard. Previously I owned a Quad.

But didn't listen to it ?

Actually the Quad sounded beautiful - light, bright and spacious. Not like the ugly sound from this Naim, which seems unable to control bass and is overwhelmed by the lower register. Sounds like it needs a massive treble control to me...

craig's posted:

ken c posted:

there is also the possibility that the OP may actually have no experience of the 250 at all -- and that this may have been a way to generate some traffic on the thread. There have been numerous examples of this type in the past.

i say "possibility" -- as of course this might also have been a genuine posting and i apologize for implying some kind of mischief here... But the lack of follow-up is somewhat suspicious....

enjoy...

ken

 

Ok - so I am not a fool, and I listened to lots of tracks at the dealers - but maybe was kind of stupid because I didn't listen to much rock. Nearly everything sounded great, though R.E.M.'s 'Circus envy' sounded quite horrible. I thought it was just an anomaly. 

Really don't think it's the setup, otherwise why would some things sound great??? Angel Olsen sounds amazing, Kate bush sounds great. But The strokes tonight...!!! Sounds better thru my IPhone speaker than the system - flat, murky, overwhelmed by bass - horrible!

Can someone help me understand that? Yes, I have contacted the dealer but it's a 150m round trip... 

the Naim streamer and amp are both new. The speakers are 6 months old.

There are a lot of questions that we've asked. That alredy included Naim support team!

PErhaps you should take time to read all replies and answer them all. Only then we can advise.

craig's posted:

Actually the Quad sounded beautiful - light, bright and spacious. Not like the ugly sound from this Naim, which seems unable to control bass and is overwhelmed by the lower register. Sounds like it needs a massive treble control to me...

Do you actually know how to set up a NAIM system? Has your dealer instructed you, as you wrote the components are new.

Oh no, after reading this thread my 250DR is starting to sound terrible, all flat and dull, you could even say murky. My old NAD 3020 and Wharfdale Dentons sounded better, lovely and bright, but the 3020 did have tone controls I suppose.

I might just sell up and buy Quad.

craig's posted:

ken c posted:

there is also the possibility that the OP may actually have no experience of the 250 at all -- and that this may have been a way to generate some traffic on the thread. There have been numerous examples of this type in the past.

i say "possibility" -- as of course this might also have been a genuine posting and i apologize for implying some kind of mischief here... But the lack of follow-up is somewhat suspicious....

enjoy...

ken

 

Ok - so I am not a fool, and I listened to lots of tracks at the dealers - but maybe was kind of stupid because I didn't listen to much rock. Nearly everything sounded great, though R.E.M.'s 'Circus envy' sounded quite horrible. I thought it was just an anomaly. 

Really don't think it's the setup, otherwise why would some things sound great??? Angel Olsen sounds amazing, Kate bush sounds great. But The strokes tonight...!!! Sounds better thru my IPhone speaker than the system - flat, murky, overwhelmed by bass - horrible!

Can someone help me understand that? Yes, I have contacted the dealer but it's a 150m round trip... 

the Naim streamer and amp are both new. The speakers are 6 months old.

Unless you answer all the questions about your system, asked because that would help identify the problem, I doubt anyone will bother trying to help anymore

nigelb posted:

Oh no, after reading this thread my 250DR is starting to sound terrible, all flat and dull, you could even say murky. My old NAD 3020 and Wharfdale Dentons sounded better, lovely and bright, but the 3020 did have tone controls I suppose.

I might just sell up and buy Quad.

Nigel - please throw your SuperLuminas away as well and replace them with some bell wire - will help with the wooly sound and will destabilise the amp even more 

craig's posted:

ken c posted:

there is also the possibility that the OP may actually have no experience of the 250 at all -- and that this may have been a way to generate some traffic on the thread. There have been numerous examples of this type in the past.

i say "possibility" -- as of course this might also have been a genuine posting and i apologize for implying some kind of mischief here... But the lack of follow-up is somewhat suspicious....

enjoy...

ken

 

Ok - so I am not a fool, and I listened to lots of tracks at the dealers - but maybe was kind of stupid because I didn't listen to much rock. Nearly everything sounded great, though R.E.M.'s 'Circus envy' sounded quite horrible. I thought it was just an anomaly. 

Really don't think it's the setup, otherwise why would some things sound great??? Angel Olsen sounds amazing, Kate bush sounds great. But The strokes tonight...!!! Sounds better thru my IPhone speaker than the system - flat, murky, overwhelmed by bass - horrible!

Can someone help me understand that? Yes, I have contacted the dealer but it's a 150m round trip... 

the Naim streamer and amp are both new. The speakers are 6 months old.

Must be the 250AR*

*Anti Rock

craig's posted:

Actually the Quad sounded beautiful - light, bright and spacious. Not like the ugly sound from this Naim, which seems unable to control bass and is overwhelmed by the lower register. Sounds like it needs a massive treble control to me...

Do you work for Quad by any chance?

Innocent Bystander posted:

craig's posted:

ken c posted:

there is also the possibility that the OP may actually have no experience of the 250 at all -- and that this may have been a way to generate some traffic on the thread. There have been numerous examples of this type in the past.

i say "possibility" -- as of course this might also have been a genuine posting and i apologize for implying some kind of mischief here... But the lack of follow-up is somewhat suspicious....

enjoy...

ken

 

Ok - so I am not a fool, and I listened to lots of tracks at the dealers - but maybe was kind of stupid because I didn't listen to much rock. Nearly everything sounded great, though R.E.M.'s 'Circus envy' sounded quite horrible. I thought it was just an anomaly. 

Really don't think it's the setup, otherwise why would some things sound great??? Angel Olsen sounds amazing, Kate bush sounds great. But The strokes tonight...!!! Sounds better thru my IPhone speaker than the system - flat, murky, overwhelmed by bass - horrible!

Can someone help me understand that? Yes, I have contacted the dealer but it's a 150m round trip... 

the Naim streamer and amp are both new. The speakers are 6 months old.

Unless you answer all the questions about your system, asked because that would help identify the problem, I doubt anyone will bother trying to help anymore

Does anyone actually have experience of using a naim 250 with B&W cm10s? My system is very simple - naim 250, naim 272 streamer and b&w cm10s. Dealer supplied speaker cable. 

craig's posted:

Actually the Quad sounded beautiful - light, bright and spacious. Not like the ugly sound from this Naim, which seems unable to control bass and is overwhelmed by the lower register. Sounds like it needs a massive treble control to me...

Ah... why bother with a 250 then if your Quad sounded good to you? there is not much anyone can do (assuming proper installation and choice of upstream components) if you simply dont like the Naim amp.  there are still a lot of questions you havent answered -- like did you demo it at the dealers -- what did it sound like then? 

you also mention that uite a few components in the system are new. well, well,well... you may just be describing 'run-in' process but who knows...

its perfectly OK for you not to like a particular hifi component, but you cannot make a general conclusion from your experience.

meantime, stick to Quad and...

enjoy

ken

Slim68 posted:

craig's posted:

Actually the Quad sounded beautiful - light, bright and spacious. Not like the ugly sound from this Naim, which seems unable to control bass and is overwhelmed by the lower register. Sounds like it needs a massive treble control to me...

Do you work for Quad by any chance?

Hilarious. Do you do stand up?

Naim and B&W is a controversial partnering. You either think they work great together or not. Plenty on the forum will take a polarised stance one way or another.

I've heard the baby of the CM range, the CM1s2 in a moderate room and found them very murky and boomy which was marginally improved by placement tweaking but not enough. Depending on your room size, the considerably larger CM10 may now be driven to their potential in a way that shows their limitations in the room. But it could also be personal preference.

My friend loves his CMs but he hated what Naim did to anything with a bassline. Similar to you, he found some things much better (vocals, simple bass light arrangements) and everything else much worse compaired to his Onkyo amp that is maybe 1/20th the cost of my Naim amplification chain.

Of course I disagree strongly but each person's opinion is 100% correct from their own perspective.

I hope it turns out to be something trivial you're dealer can resolve for you. If not, don't feel bad about going in another direction. 

craig's posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

craig's posted:

ken c posted:

there is also the possibility that the OP may actually have no experience of the 250 at all -- and that this may have been a way to generate some traffic on the thread. There have been numerous examples of this type in the past.

i say "possibility" -- as of course this might also have been a genuine posting and i apologize for implying some kind of mischief here... But the lack of follow-up is somewhat suspicious....

enjoy...

ken

 

Ok - so I am not a fool, and I listened to lots of tracks at the dealers - but maybe was kind of stupid because I didn't listen to much rock. Nearly everything sounded great, though R.E.M.'s 'Circus envy' sounded quite horrible. I thought it was just an anomaly. 

Really don't think it's the setup, otherwise why would some things sound great??? Angel Olsen sounds amazing, Kate bush sounds great. But The strokes tonight...!!! Sounds better thru my IPhone speaker than the system - flat, murky, overwhelmed by bass - horrible!

Can someone help me understand that? Yes, I have contacted the dealer but it's a 150m round trip... 

the Naim streamer and amp are both new. The speakers are 6 months old.

Unless you answer all the questions about your system, asked because that would help identify the problem, I doubt anyone will bother trying to help anymore

Does anyone actually have experience of using a naim 250 with B&W cm10s? My system is very simple - naim 250, naim 272 streamer and b&w cm10s. Dealer supplied speaker cable. 

 

Please answer the following questions below:

1. What rack are your components placed on?

2. What power cables are you using?

3. Are the power cables plugged directly into wall sockets? If not - what are they plugged into?

4. What speaker cables are you using? Brand, model and length?

5. Where in the room are your speakers placed? 

6. Room size

All of the above are vital information that has not yet been supplied

craig's posted:

Does anyone actually have experience of using a naim 250 with B&W cm10s? My system is very simple - naim 250, naim 272 streamer and b&w cm10s. Dealer supplied speaker cable. 

 

272+250 seems to be a common combination and well regarded (though that doesn't necessarily mean you would like the sound). CM10 is a reasonably respectable speaker, though others might sound better. If you use the advanced search facility on this forum you'll find a handfull of references to the three in combination, which might be worth a look. Otherwise questions such as set up and actual speaker cable details might be ones to answer to enable people's contributions to be meaningful.

worth playing with speaker and listening position placement - it is possible that what worked with different amp and source might not be ideal for this combination.

Adam Zielinski posted:

craig's posted:

Slim68 posted:

craig's posted:

Actually the Quad sounded beautiful - light, bright and spacious. Not like the ugly sound from this Naim, which seems unable to control bass and is overwhelmed by the lower register. Sounds like it needs a massive treble control to me...

Do you work for Quad by any chance?

Hilarious. Do you do stand up?

Please refrain from sarcastic comments to fellow forum members who are trying to help you out.

Adam

I think that is a bit unfriendly of you when you consider the number of much more sarcastic comments by forum members while waiting for Craig to look at the forum again. As Phil often says "group hug" now!

best

David

[@mention:69004037280266677] as you can tell your experience is uncommon. I'm a fairly new Naim gear owner, I have quickly learnt that it can be very fussy stuff. Set it up correctly however, and it will reward you greatly. If you have the boxes plugged in to an extension lead the first thing to do as Adam z said is plug them directly into a wall socket. You'll also need to give all your new gear time to settle down. There is no set time for this. It may take days or weeks to start singing.

Did your dealer supply you with Naca5 speaker cable? What lengths? 

Speaker placement may need tweaking too as others have suggested. A position that works with one amp, may not work with another. When I changed my 5i amp to Supernait the bass (and everything else) changed significantly, some speaker tweaking was required. I recently demoed a 250DR at home and this changed the music again making the bass more controlled and detailed. So I'm another who's experience of a 250 is very different from yours. If this is your second 250 this does suggest the issue is elsewhere in the setup. 

Start with the basics. Plug directly into a wall socket. Make sure the 272 isn't sat on the 250DR. Use Naim naca5 speaker cable, at least 3.5m per per side.

Getting back to Craig's question, I can understand where he is coming from because I have a lot of B&W and Quad in my history and my journey although different gave me glimpses of what he is hearing. It's only a year ago that having got Naim Uniti streamers in three other rooms in my house, I gradually swapped out my ND5 XS and Quad 99/909 system for the 272/250DR/XPSDR/CDX2 system I use now. Changing the ND5 XS for a 272 brought a massive amount more bass instantly and that was fine because my speakers worked well with that.  I turned my Quad sub-woofer way down.  More on speakers in a moment. I used the 272 with the Quad 909 for about two months and it sounded really excellent. Changing it for a 250DR once Naim got round to making it for me brought subtle changes. Better control/grip, a more airy sound and more musical, but I could have stayed with the 909 quite happily if I had had to.

I think that Craig's issue is actually that his speakers/room don't work well with the 272 (and I do mean 272 not 250). As I said before I had various B&W speakers over the years but swapped over to the Quad 22L (not the later unlovely 22L2) when they first came out and I thought these were better in every respect to the similarly priced B&Ws. They were much more open, more detail, sounded more real, more "top" as well, better imaging etc. I still use them with my Naim set up and they still sound great. There is a photo of one in my avatar, with my non-Naim approved Supercat modification!

Of course the 272 is really great too, so I think that what Craig is hearing is bad interaction between his not terribly special CM10s and the way they are positioned in his room. No equipment stands, cables or running in of new kit is going to fix that. If it were me then I would move the speakers radically awY from walls/corners and see if getting rid of the lower midrange and bass dominance that he is describing allows the Naim wonder to come through. And if it doesn't then it is time to move the CM10s on to a new home and buy speakers that work better in the room.

Good luck Craig and I hope you stay with the forum and tell us how you get on.

best

David

David Hendon posted:

Adam Zielinski posted:

craig's posted:

Slim68 posted:

craig's posted:

Actually the Quad sounded beautiful - light, bright and spacious. Not like the ugly sound from this Naim, which seems unable to control bass and is overwhelmed by the lower register. Sounds like it needs a massive treble control to me...

Do you work for Quad by any chance?

Hilarious. Do you do stand up?

Please refrain from sarcastic comments to fellow forum members who are trying to help you out.

Adam

I think that is a bit unfriendly of you when you consider the number of much more sarcastic comments by forum members while waiting for Craig to look at the forum again. As Phil often says "group hug" now!

best

David

Hug  deleted my reply.