Headphones for N272

feeling_zen posted:

Solid Air posted:

While there's lots of love for the Senns, there are other headphones out there which are far easier to drive. I personally have Grado SR325e 'phones and they're a very easy drive, so will make the 272 sound it's very best. I recently was able to compare the Grados with Senn 650s and both are very good, but I preferred the Grados - they were simply more entertaining. I absolutely recommend them.

This is true and I loved the sound of the Audeze range too. Truly outstanding. One caveat about headphones is that comfort has to trump sound quality. While I would probably have gone for the HD800 anyway, the main issue with the Audeze was that they hurt like hell.

On the other hand, plenty find the Senns hurt (especially the unusual shape on the HD7/800). You really need to make a shortlist of ones that don't hurt your head shape after 10 minutes of wearing - it won't be the same for everyone.

But even this HD600 & HD800 owner fully admits there is a wider world out there.

when i had a Rega Ear and HD600 I would have agreed with that. After getting the HL I thought "hang on. This is marginal over the Ear for almost 10x the price." 

Then I got HD800 and the difference using them between an Ear and a HL was fairly large.

Don't get me wrong. I think there are some great headphone amps out there. But if the source and headphones warrant it, I don't think a HL is a poor VFM dedicated analog headphone amp at all.  And I run one off a HCDR.

Hkmac posted:

This is my first post although have been on the site for some time. I  purchased my system earlier this year based on suggestions from the forum. As I live in Hong Kong it's very difficult to find dealers that will let you home demo or upgrade so the forum was very helpful.  I'm now looking for some advice purchasing a set of high quality headphones for home use for my system N272, 200dr, XpsDR. All music is stored In Flac or wav format on NAS Synology 416play. Currently looking at Sennheiser 800s or Beyerdynamic T1. I listen to all types of music.  Any thoughts?

I find the headphone amp on the 272 to be excellent. If you choose very difficult to drive headphones you maybe disappointed as a stand-alone amp will do a better job at this.  The most musical headphones in my opinion are Grado's.  The Grado's PS500e is a terrific headphone - and amazing VFM, it in many ways outshines the PS1000 or GS1000 as they have a larger diaphragm which results in somewhat better low frequency but not a fast. The RS2e is an all wood slightly warmer in my opinion version of the PS500e (same transducer, it's also brilliant.). The speed and transparency of the PS500e and RS2e are remarkable in my opinion. Their flagship the GS2000e I have not purchased yet and it is on my shortlist, I am very currious about this unit. I have found no dynamic or electrostatic headphone that sounds as live as the higher end Grado's... I do have a number of Beyerdynamic headphones, they are another quality maker and in the office where I need sealed headphones they are wonderful, but never as alive as the Grado's.. Other super feature of the Grado's is they are very efficient and are stunning with the built in headphone amp on the 272. The PS500e's are my regular headphone and I have hundreds of hours experience with them and the 272.

Solid Air posted:

While there's lots of love for the Senns, there are other headphones out there which are far easier to drive. I personally have Grado SR325e 'phones and they're a very easy drive, so will make the 272 sound it's very best. I recently was able to compare the Grados with Senn 650s and both are very good, but I preferred the Grados - they were simply more entertaining. I absolutely recommend them.

I concur, I wonder how many who are poo-pooing the 272's headphone section have actually spent many hours with it. I am also using the Grado's with it and the performance is stellar. 

The Senns are not difficult headphones to drive.. in fact it's the opposite, compared to many headphones such as Grados, which I also own, they are high impedance... from memory I think 600 ohms. This makes them generally easier to drive.... however a good headphone amp will almost certainly need to have settings to optimise it for high or low impedance headphones.. otherwise I suspect it's design will be optimised for one or the other.. and a mismatch is unlikely to sound optimum.

Senns is a big world and they not know to be easy to drive headphones at all, specially if you compare them with grades which i find the sound signature and build quality not to my liking. HD650 / HD800 are famous for their amp match difficulties, you need a warmer sounding but also powerful amp to enjoy this cans. 

272 might sound good if you dont know what you are missing with a real dedicated headphone amp. 

I did hours of testing 272 vs Graham solo / Creek / Violectric v200 vs 272 using 272 streamer as a source.

In all this test even my wife had a listen and she got the amp vs 272 every single time, and told me " ok ok buy the amp it is different " this is with hd800/LCD2/Sony Z7

i might not be a stereo guy with a lot of experience with different brands other than Naim ( or have a huge experience with different Naim proposals ) but i did my time with many headphones and headphone amps....

For Senns you need a generally low power high voltage / low current headphone driver ... i.e. a traditional headphone driver... most Grados I know are very much lower impedances and can be fed by a similar amp that drives conventional loudspeakers. Such an amp would not be usually best suited to traditional headphone impedances such as used by the Senns. This matching becomes even more sensitive IMO with valve drivers. The Apple iPad Air headphone driver is surprisingly adept however in driving high and low impedance headphones, although I feel my Senns do sound more attractive on the Apple compared to my Grados.

After some weeks of waiting, I picked up my new Focal Elear at the Postoffice two hours ago. I plugged them in to NAC272 half an hour ago.  No XPSDR yet, expected to arrive in mid january.

First impression, clear and insughtsful, but still sweet and amazing, involving. They have to run in though.

My plan is to enjoy them until XPS arrive, then evaluate over some time again, and also compare 272 to dedicated amps. The end will be the best musical choice.

I have never found musical joy with cheaper headphones (except the redicilous cheap Koss Porta Pro). I owned Grado RS1 with Headline and different psu's some years ago and even if they where a bit bright, I have missed them. Elear level seems to be the right choice for me and find cymbiosis with an amp is the road. I really hope that amp is 272/ XPSDR 

S

Focal Elear is my favourite at the moment and it is also good with 272

If you can run to the Sennheiser HD800s, unsurprisingly, you won't be disappointed. They are really very good on my SU, therefore I would expect even greater results from the 272.

Also, possibly, the most comfortable headphones I've ever worn - I found the Elear's very 'noticeable ' after 20 minutes or so. Big head perhaps? 

KR, J

Sennheiser HD 800s and Ultrasone signature pros using DAC V1 or Headline with Napsc off 202/Hicap DR,  both driven to ear splitting levels and crystalline resolution. Simply cannot comprehend the 'difficult to drive' view of 800s. A Unitiqute will drive them easily but its resolution is too limiting. The 272 is ostensibly the same as the V1 so I would recommend both of these headphones for trial. 

Comfort with headphones is vital. Few people would sit in an uncomfortable, badly shaped chair to listen to their speakers. Why do it with headphones? I can adapt to different sound signatures (see above) but comfort is non-negotiable. Happy listening.

Andy 

has anyone has heard the focal utopia headphones. At 4000 USD they must be completely superb  ?

analogmusic posted:

has anyone has heard the focal utopia headphones. At 4000 USD they must be completely superb  ?

Didn't hear them myself. But they got a review in one of the audio magazines which rated it as the best headphones on the market right now...

AndyPat posted:

Sennheiser HD 800s and Ultrasone signature pros using DAC V1 or Headline with Napsc off 202/Hicap DR,  both driven to ear splitting levels and crystalline resolution. Simply cannot comprehend the 'difficult to drive' view of 800s. A Unitiqute will drive them easily but its resolution is too limiting. The 272 is ostensibly the same as the V1 so I would recommend both of these headphones for trial. 

Comfort with headphones is vital. Few people would sit in an uncomfortable, badly shaped chair to listen to their speakers. Why do it with headphones? I can adapt to different sound signatures (see above) but comfort is non-negotiable. Happy listening.

 

Andy 

Andy, I have a UQ2 and HD600 and HD800. The UQ2 utterly fails to make either of these sound convincing and unforced. I strongly suspect the UQ2 is optimised for headphones of 100 Ohms or less. 

The lack of a good way to connect a headphone amp to the UQ2 is my only complaint.

feeling_zen posted:

AndyPat posted:

Sennheiser HD 800s and Ultrasone signature pros using DAC V1 or Headline with Napsc off 202/Hicap DR,  both driven to ear splitting levels and crystalline resolution. Simply cannot comprehend the 'difficult to drive' view of 800s. A Unitiqute will drive them easily but its resolution is too limiting. The 272 is ostensibly the same as the V1 so I would recommend both of these headphones for trial. 

Comfort with headphones is vital. Few people would sit in an uncomfortable, badly shaped chair to listen to their speakers. Why do it with headphones? I can adapt to different sound signatures (see above) but comfort is non-negotiable. Happy listening.

 

Andy 

Andy, I have a UQ2 and HD600 and HD800. The UQ2 utterly fails to make either of these sound convincing and unforced. I strongly suspect the UQ2 is optimised for headphones of 100 Ohms or less. 

The lack of a good way to connect a headphone amp to the UQ2 is my only complaint.

Digital out to digital in? Or am I missing something?

KR, J

I though UQ had a preamp out? but yes then it is going through the UQ preamp, and then the headphone amp.

Not ideal.

alternatively one could just buy a Chord mojo for 400 GBP

I hear you feeling_zen. The qute has an 'add-on' headphone stage and its limitations, back up the chain, cannot be overcome for quality headphones. It can provide enough power but that simply accentuates its lower capability and distortions. The V1 and 272 have the better signal path and dedicated headphone stage that let good phones sing. I quickly acquired the V1 when I started using headphones more frequently and hit walls with more complex, and indeed quieter, recordings.  And particularly when ramping up the volume.  

I don't think an external headphone amp will overcome the limitations of the Qute. Adding a NAP 100 gave more grunt to my Wilson Benesch Square Ones but  Qute via dc1 into V1 and NAP 100 was the real SQ improvement.  

Don't get me wrong, love my Qute for convenience and 'background' listening, but its V1 or Headline when I want to feel (be convinced by) the music.

Andy

I think what I might do is get a pair of HD800s as they have been the most comfortable fit for me, burn them in and if needed demo an HL and various PS. At least I will have the 800 to be able to take to my HK Naim dealer and try them with the HL and various PS's. Or if needed purchase the Senn headphone amp 600 or 800 to go with them. Thoughts?

As multiple people have commented in this thread, the HD800 is not an easy headphone to drive. Have a listen to the Focal elear. I thought they were as good as the HD800s sound quality wise, and cheaper too, 

Ok will try and find a pair and have a demo before committing to the 800s.  

Elevensheep posted:

As multiple people have commented in this thread, the HD800 is not an easy headphone to drive. Have a listen to the Focal elear. I thought they were as good as the HD800s sound quality wise, and cheaper too, 

I can only speak for the 800s, in that I have not found it as difficult to drive as many have said.....

The Elear does indeed sound very good, as I auditioned both  - chose the 800s as the more comfortable at the 30mins plus point.

KR, J

I auditioned both Focal Elear vs Utopia in France with a out of this world strange electronic music from a top end system, was it just the music or the price tag I opt for Elear , they also sound excellent with mojo

A day during the day I was 100k € golden one on display in some posh jewellery shop, it look bizarre

You need analog out in order to connect to an amp, digital will be good for amp/dac I think

Hkmac posted:

I think what I might do is get a pair of HD800s as they have been the most comfortable fit for me, burn them in and if needed demo an HL and various PS. At least I will have the 800 to be able to take to my HK Naim dealer and try them with the HL and various PS's. Or if needed purchase the Senn headphone amp 600 or 800 to go with them. Thoughts?

ELEAR is better than hd800s and violectric v200 is far better than headline  with a nuclear plant

In my opinion, but a strong one

Thanks EMRE will have a serious listen to the Elear but also agree with DR J about the comfort of the 800s.  I think I am getting a lot closer now. I will more than likely add a dedicated amp to drive them  in the longer term.  

Hkmac posted:

Thanks EMRE will have a serious listen to the Elear but also agree with DR J about the comfort of the 800s.  I think I am getting a lot closer now. I will more than likely add a dedicated amp to drive them  in the longer term.  

I too plan to add a dedicated headphone amp to extract the best from my 800s, although I do consider this to be an upgrade rather than an absolute necessity.

DAC-V1 appeals as it also offers the capability to add the Mac Mini directly into the system.

KR, J