PMC Twenty5.23 for XS2?

I have recently bought the PMC 25-23's replacing my Proac118 studios. Really like the way they sound. I was originally using them with my Unitlite and they worked fine till I upgraded to the 272, 200, Xpsdr. For a small floorstander they really work.  

Power-wise the XS2 has enough to drive the 25.23s comfortably.

On the other hand, they can really benefit from higher end amplification. I've not heard the 25.23s on the ned of an XS2 so could not say whether it was a good or bad match. An educated guess might tell me that you won't get your money's worth from the 23s until you move into SN2 territory or a pre  fronted by a NAP200.

Like I said, it is not really a power issue. The 23s are easy to drive. They and their predecessor's got a reputation for being hard to drive which is nonsense. It is just that they respond soooo well to amplification further up the chain. At the same time, they are more resolving and less forgiving than their 20.23 predecessor.  If you can make another change in 12 months, I would say go for the 23s now. You won't be dissapointed. Then let the dust settle and decide whether you want to move towards a SN2, or a 272+NAP200 or even a second hand SN2 and a XP5xs on your ND5xs.  

ND5xs is a very capable source and is often overlooked. With a power supply it starts to edge over on a bare NDX. You are kind of spoilt for chouse because the ND5xs and XS2 are very fine and both give you plent of room to upgrade in either direction. Your end game system is going to really determine whether you attack the source first, the amp first, or some combination of the two via a 272.

I was auditioning the PMC twenty5 speakers recently .. and had an extended home demo of the little standmount version, twenty5.21 to see how I got on before I tried the 23. They are impressive speakers and the resessed mids I remember from some earlier PMC speakers seem to be sorted now... however there was a bug bear.. and that was the treble, although well balanced and not overly prominent, I found it lacking in resolution and compared to what I am used to sounded a little crude. For much music this probably might not matter so much unless you immersively listen (which I do) but the music genre that just failed completely was choral. Having been a humble church choir boy in my youth, I have many such recordings in various abbeys and cathedrals, and I really connect with them... but alas the PMCs just didn't seem to do it right.   Perhaps if I had not been a chorister things might be different... because other than the slightly crude treble they are very good indeed.

I mention this because you mention Allegri's Miserere which suggests you might like religious choir music.. perhaps just listen through some more of your cathedral recordings to make sure they work for you..

Simon

Buying speakers because they are a 'good price', especially when one thinks that one's existing speakers are 'great' is rarely a good idea. It would certainly be worth comparing the ND5 and Nait with the PMCs against an NDX/SN2 with the Neats and seeing which is more musically compelling, rather than simply 'exciting'. Exciting is often not a good thing when you want to sit down and enjoy a bit of choral music. 

I very much enjoyed my time with twenty.23s driven by a SuperUniti. A friend of mine has some GB1i driven by a Nait 5i and they sound gutless. While not hard to drive, the PMCs do benefit from a bit of power up them. 

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

I was auditioning the PMC twenty5 speakers recently .. and had an extended home demo of the little standmount version, twenty5.21 to see how I got on before I tried the 23. They are impressive speakers and the resessed mids I remember from some earlier PMC speakers seem to be sorted now... however there was a bug bear.. and that was the treble, although well balanced and not overly prominent, I found it lacking in resolution and compared to what I am used to sounded a little crude. For much music this probably might not matter so much unless you immersively listen (which I do) but the music genre that just failed completely was choral. Having been a humble church choir boy in my youth, I have many such recordings in various abbeys and cathedrals, and I really connect with them... but alas the PMCs just didn't seem to do it right.   Perhaps if I had not been a chorister things might be different... because other than the slightly crude treble they are very good indeed.

I mention this because you mention Allegri's Miserere which suggests you might like religious choir music.. perhaps just listen through some more of your cathedral recordings to make sure they work for you..

Simon

Having lived with a damaged but run in pair until recently, I could never shake the feeling that maybe the older Twenty.23s had the edge in terms if treble finesse. Of course since I also had to live with the big cardboard boxes in the corner of the room resonnating I never bother doing the fine positioning either knowing it would all change once the final pair was in place and the boxes gone.

I hear what you are saying. I remember when chosing the older 20.23s, for me, the PMCs have always been about the all round package. I've heard speakers do each thing better than PMC (bass depth, bass definition, mids, soundstaging, treble etc) at the same price but only one thing better and the rest worse. To get something that did absolutely everything better seemed to require a massive leap in price.

I agree it is really hard to go backwards for something noticeable to you even if everything else works so well. I had a similar moment with the 250DR when I felt it lost the groove over the 250.2. I did find the root cause to that (and resolve it) and it wasn't just a matter of getting used to it. There is a tendency for people to be too polarised in how they view the results of where they put their money and if they overall like some (a 250DR, 25.23s, 272) they decide it can do no wrong.

Dear all,

Many thanks for your comments. Personally, I think speakers are the most difficult hifi component to choose. I listened to a few different amplifiers but was quickly bitten by the Naim bug. At that time, though, I didn't dare to listen to the Supernait -- promised the wife that the hifi system wouldn't be  more expensive than her piano. Well, this didn't quite work out, but the Supernait would have pushed it a bit to far. Though I now regret that I didn't try the Supernait as well...

Picking the speakers was more difficult I felt. I certainly like my SX1 -- otherwise I wouldn't have bought them. I think they are great all-rounders -- but they might lack a bit of sparkle (if that makes sense). I actually thought the smaller SX3 had more sparkle -- I quite liked the treble. But in the end we went for the SX3, because we felt that they coped better with orchestral music.

Reading your comments I wonder whether I am still in a good place with my SX1. The "excitement" I feel with the Twenty5.23 might indeed be too much. Am I at risk of listening fatigue? We certainly listen to quite a bit choral music plus a fair chunk of opera. The full range of classical music actually. Examples of my "demo cd" include: in addition to the already mentioned Allegri, Brahms No. 3, Sibelius No. 5, Mendelsohn Violin Concerto, Schumann Piano Concerto, Beethoven Moonlight Sonata, and a Wagner aria (actually forgot which one I put on).

You gave me important food for thought. Maybe a Supernait is the way to go, though I am not sure whether I would end up with an NDX. How do you feel about mixing the XS and Classic range. From reading in the forum, I was under the impression that many here suggest that one should with one range. 

Many thanks!!

Another option you could look into is to keep your ND5XS, Nait XS and the Neat SX1 but go for an upgraded cable loom. I don't know what cables your using.     This could be a useful way of adding excitement and getting the best out of what you've got.    Many different brands are compatible with Naim at this level.   If you imagine yourself owning a Naim pre and power one day this could be a good investment if chosen correctly.   + you can buy on a longer term basis..£400 on a power cable, then another £400 for another power cable a few months later etc. Later investing in a proper support rack.  You would be surprised just what you've got is capable of.

I've no experience of the 25.23's or the Nait XS2, but I had a Nait XS1 + FlatcapXS on 20.23's. It was good, but I felt that the bass lost control a bit too easily in deeper parts of the music. I later moved to SN2 and feel that this grips the 20.23's much better. As others have said, they don't seem difficult to drive but definitely benefit from more power.

I've also heard the Nait XS1 on 20.21's and think that this is a excellent combination. 

TOBYJUG posted:

Another option you could look into is to keep your ND5XS, Nait XS and the Neat SX1 but go for an upgraded cable loom. I don't know what cables your using.     This could be a useful way of adding excitement and getting the best out of what you've got.    Many different brands are compatible with Naim at this level.   If you imagine yourself owning a Naim pre and power one day this could be a good investment if chosen correctly.   + you can buy on a longer term basis..£400 on a power cable, then another £400 for another power cable a few months later etc. Later investing in a proper support rack.  You would be surprised just what you've got is capable of.

Naim is full of temptations -- a Powerlines certainly belong to these. But first my wife's memory has to fade... When I told her the new and the going used prices, she thought I was crazy -- "for a mains cable!!!". Maybe I should pretend I got a very, very good price on ebay... ;-) Also, she felt that the Vodka ethernet cable was somewhat "unreasonably priced" but thought I could have Cinnanom. Puuh... I am relatively new in the hifi hobby. At the moment my excitement levels might grow faster than my wife's tolerance levels. ;-)

Mayor West posted:

I've no experience of the 25.23's or the Nait XS2, but I had a Nait XS1 + FlatcapXS on 20.23's. It was good, but I felt that the bass lost control a bit too easily in deeper parts of the music. I later moved to SN2 and feel that this grips the 20.23's much better. As others have said, they don't seem difficult to drive but definitely benefit from more power.

I've also heard the Nait XS1 on 20.21's and think that this is a excellent combination. 

My SX1 could do with a more controlled bass -- downfiring ports and suspended timber floor...  I thought about experimenting with granite slabs. I also read somewhere here in the forum that PMC recommends this -- though not entirely why given PMC's very particular construction. 

Timo posted:

Mayor West posted:

I've no experience of the 25.23's or the Nait XS2, but I had a Nait XS1 + FlatcapXS on 20.23's. It was good, but I felt that the bass lost control a bit too easily in deeper parts of the music. I later moved to SN2 and feel that this grips the 20.23's much better. As others have said, they don't seem difficult to drive but definitely benefit from more power.

I've also heard the Nait XS1 on 20.21's and think that this is a excellent combination. 

My SX1 could do with a more controlled bass -- downfiring ports and suspended timber floor...  I thought about experimenting with granite slabs. I also read somewhere here in the forum that PMC recommends this -- though not entirely why given PMC's very particular construction. 

Speakers are controlled by amplifiers, not lumps of granite. Just get the Supernait! 

Hi Timo

I recently had a home demo of the supernait 2. I found that with my neat motive 2 speakers it seemed to push things too far for my liking. The sound became almost too dynamic and fatiguing. I was unable to push the volume to the levels I like. I plan to try supernait 2 with twenty5 23s in the new year as this may be a better combination for me. 

I have not heard the motive sx so this may not be an issue or you may prefer this presentation.  Make sure you have a home demo 

Stuart 

I have a xs1 driving the 20 21's and it is indeed a fine combination as long as the speakers are supported by a rear wall or it's a bit lean otherwise,but I don't see why the 23's would require a bit more power than the 21's as they both share the exact same drivers with only cabinet size being the differing factor?

Skinnypuppy71 posted:

I have a xs1 driving the 20 21's and it is indeed a fine combination as long as the speakers are supported by a rear wall or it's a bit lean otherwise,but I don't see why the 23's would require a bit more power than the 21's as they both share the exact same drivers with only cabinet size being the differing factor?

And they don't need more power - you're right. And the Twenty5 rnge seems to be even more sensitive in real practical use (not on paper) than the older Twenty range.

Some of the confusion stems from the fact that you can drive 23s from a UQ2 but it doesn't sound fantastic and then you drive them with a 200 or 250 and suddenly they wake up. So it must be a power issue. Errr not necessarily.

The Twenty/Twenty5 rnge are fairly revealing speakers and they benefit greatly from a better power amp. Much of the time, that better power amp is a lot more powerful too. Assuming the quality of the amp is sufficient, there is no reson why a 40w amp won't drive the 23s very well. Stick a 3K pair of 25.23s on a UQ2 (for example, just be cause I happen to have both and have done this) and it will sound like the mullet it is.

I guess than means that in terms of Naim amplification, then yes the 23s will need an amp that is better and yes it will be at the gutsier end of the scale by virtue of the fact that Naim add power further up the range. My feeling is that, given a good enough source, an XS-2 is probably the right starting point on the Naim amplification ladder for this level of speaker.

So I can expect more to come from my little pmc's  if and when I do upgrade my xs to further up the naim ladder.I love the speakers and they fit my room very well so I only have source and amplification to work with re upgrades.