Getting started with Naim, your recommendations

wenger2015 posted:

When you auditioned  the B&W 804 D3, you obviously decided you liked them, so what was the source and set up? 

I'm not quite sure. I guess they were running on a Naim set. I definitely want to try them on the new Unitis as soon as they arrive at the dealer.

I liked the 804 D3, although I haven't listened to them more than half an hour or so. I was impressed how they played electronica stuff, like Yello. Vocal music like Norah Jones and some others the dealer chose were great, too. But I need to listen again to some orchestral music. I wasn't sure about how the bass performed.

I use to own B&W 805 S speakers. I do like many aspects of B&W speakers, but they are not the only good speaker company, certainly I would audition speakers from Kudos, Neat, ATC, PMC, Proac and Dynaudio, & Focal before making the final choice. All these speakers (including B&W) have some values pair well with Naim electronics, particularly speed. B&W 804 is an impressive speaker, but it does require some power to really make music come alive, nothing less than an 70 watt Naim amp, like NAP 200, Superuniti (80 watts) - or the equivalent new Nova.

What I would not do though, is build a system around the speakers.

Spend the most money on the electronics, and on the source, and choose the speaker based on the remaining budget.

after hearing my chord Hugo in the car, off my Yamaha HT amp, off my 282/HCDR/250DR, and also my friends 552/500 system, I realised, that whatever the  quality of the amplifier (and it is excellent for the Naim ones), in the end, the amplifier is just still amplifying the source. Good amplifiers and speakers should clearly allow you to hear the quality of the source, and be as neutral as possible, rather than have their own sound.

Bastian posted:

Wow, thanks for all the feedback. Not easy to decide what to do now… 

I'm definitely going to try a couple other speakers. B_LUND, thanks for your list. I'll see what I'll e able to get to listen to. Also, my dealer is waiting for the new Uniti components. He will call me when they arrived so I can go and listen how they work on the 804 D3.

You will find lots of helpful and friendly people here. At the same time, each one of us will confuse you a bit more. 

Thats why, just use us as a sounding board and go with your heart. Most people told me the qute2 will not be enough to drive difficult speakers but I just loved it from day one despite all. And I heard a lot more expensive :-) 

Best advice I heard here (and I applied it to myself) is to listen to several options and take your time (speakers mainly but also other good sources. It is good to learn to recognise how naim sound is different from Linn or Simaudio Moon NEO Ace for exemple). Select one to 3 good dealers initially to cover a wide range of brands. Some will not like me saying that but that's a fact that one dealer is often limited. Narrow the list to 1 or 2 at the end. 

Secondly, I suggest that you always propose a range of budget aka £5k to £10k for example and explore what it gives you. People naturally go for the highest but I assure you that you will be surprised what £5k gives you sometimes :-) 

Music is a pleasure and this journey needs to stay a discovery and no stress. Don't know what you will choose ? Great!!!! That Means you are going to enjoy the journey as much as the destination 

happy new year 

Bastion,

I have one comment to add to the considerable advice on offer here.  Before you begin auditioning systems, invest a little time assembling some music examples to use both at home and at a dealer's showroom.  Obviously you may want to hear some of your favorites.  These favorites may or may not be well recorded examples.  So be sure to include some music which will reveal the resolution and timing of the system.  

Of course, you don't just want to hear "audiophile recordings," which may be stunningly high quality but boring music.  If a recording is over produced and distorted, you may not hear how capable a system is - yet if this is your favorite music, you may require that the system be "forgiving" and makes that music enjoyable.   

Also search this forum, and consult your dealer, regarding auditioning and "listening."  It is best when the music sounds so convincing, compelling and involving that you just sit there enjoying it - and forget to do any "listening."  A common mistake is to focus too much on details of the "sound" rather than taking in the "whole" of a musical performance.   

Of course this may already be obvious to you, but i thought it worth mentioning.

Good luck in this adventure.

Charlie

My suggestion

Start with the Core.

Evaluate 2 options

Nova & N272/NAP200

each with 2 or 3 speaker possibilities within your remaining budget in each case. 

You'll still be auditioning some very capable loudspeakers with a 272/200 combo, good enough for the benefits of a future power supply upgrade to the N272 in due course to be readily apparent....if that's how you might want to go.

Don't ignore the importance of a good support but fancy cables (powerlines, hi-line etc) can wait. 

I'm sure Core/Nova will be fab - I'm keen to hear together with the Neat Iota Alphas, which I think would make a very elegant 21st century system.

Have fun, there's no right answer, go with what moves you. 

Olly

The only thing I'd add to Olly's post is that if you skip the Core and just get a NAS, you'll have £1,500 more to spend on other stuff. 

If a Core is no better than a £200 NAS why would have Naim wasted a lot of time, effort and money on developing it rather than just quietly dropping the Unitiserve and telling their customers they have £1,500 more to spend on a better streamer or SL speaker cables?

Connecting with your other thread HH perhaps putting your ethernet stream through a crappy switch means the engineering in the Naim transport is wasted?

Olly

Doubtless they make it because people buy it for the convenience and the brand, and because it makes a profit. When I tested a Synology against my then UnitiServe, the former was better. I have no idea whether the Core is better, but it certainly wouldn't be sensible to assume that it would be, without listening for yourself. 

One important factor to consider is the future: is this to be a system you intend to live with for many years, perhaps until something fails, or do you see it as a first step with upgrades to come - and if the latter, what sort of budget and frequency for the steps and/or what might be the endgame?

I'm unclear as to whether analogue sources will feature - that can make a difference to preamp choices. 

If I were buying from scratch with 10k to spend,aiming for a very good system capable of high satisfaction levels I'd be buying mostly secondhand. For a streaming system I'd consider Melco or Naim Core as the music store and player (avoiding the problems networks can cause) - Core is as yet an unknown quantity, so these need comparing, and of course Core will only be available new (Melco N1A might be available S/H as there is an upgrade possibility) . Then Chord Hugo DAC, or better still Hugo TT if prices for all allow. If analogue inputs aren't needed then the Chord DACs have the added advantage of not only superb sound quality but they can be used without a preamp direct into a power amp, saving cost and the extra electronics, though for this the TT does have advantages over plain Hugo, most notably a remote control.

Power amp requirement may depend on the speakers you decide on, as some can be quite demanding of amp. Others on this forum will give you better advice on Naim power amps than I can. 

Speakers really do require very thorough consideration as they impose the most character on the sound you hear, and given your total budget I would think maybe £2k+ secondhand should give a very good choice - lower cost simply means considering older models, and some old speakers can hold their own against more modern ones.

it would be good if you can find a dealer that handles all of these options, with secondhand availability, but the chances are you'd either have to shop around or wait for availability for some items -though it doesn't stop you listening to some of the items new if the dealer is happy to do that.

Re speakers, listen to as many different types (as opposed to speakers in the same brand's range) to find what you like best. If you haven't tried that yet you may be very surprised at how different sounding different speakers can be in any price range, and some you mau like, some less so, some you may dislike with a vengence, and some may be so beguiling to you that they are simple must-haves.

Innocent Bystander posted:

One important factor to consider is the future: is this to be a system you intend to live with for many years, perhaps until something fails, or do you see it as a first step with upgrades to come […]

I'd like to have this system to live for as long as possible. Maybe I'm gonna add some extra components in the future to improve the listening experience. But I don't see myself updating the components all the time and frequently look out for new speakers.

That's why I'm considering spending as much as possible on really fine speakers as I think these are the part of the whole system that changes least often.

A few others have mentioned this -- LISTEN TO THE SPEAKERS IN YOUR HOME.  My local dealer has wonderful listening/demo rooms . . . that sound nothing like my home.  What I hear there does not sound the same in my home.  Fortunately, they are happy to let me have home demos of electronics and/or speakers.  It's really an important part of the speaker buying process.  Good luck and have fun!

Bastian posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

One important factor to consider is the future: is this to be a system you intend to live with for many years, perhaps until something fails, or do you see it as a first step with upgrades to come […]

I'd like to have this system to live for as long as possible. Maybe I'm gonna add some extra components in the future to improve the listening experience. But I don't see myself updating the components all the time and frequently look out for new speakers.

That's why I'm considering spending as much as possible on really fine speakers as I think these are the part of the whole system that changes least often.

In case it helps put things in perspective: My system a year ago was Mac mini running Audirvana USB out through Gustard U12 (overall approximately akin to Melco N1A, but a bit more setting up. Cost me about £1300 using secondhand MM and upgrading RAM and adding twin 1TB SSDs myself), Chord Hugo which I bought new slightly discounted below its £1400 list price, 25 year old Musical Fidelity P270 power amp (sometimes crop up on a well known auction site for well  under £1000, and 45 year old IMF reference standard professional monitor speakers, nominal value around £5-8k if available new today - very occasionally up secondhand (currently there's a pair of slightly lesser IMF TLS80 for £800 on said website ).  Very good sounding to my ears, and I been hooked on the transmission line sound since a big speaker showdown 40 years ago (when I started with a lesser IMF model).

Equivalent modern speakers would be the larger PMCs, and I upgraded to their EB1i early this year at £4k secondhand, new value equivalent about £8-£10k, and I also bought a Bryston 4Dsst2 for under £2k, and changed the Hugo for Dave. But these changes were because I had inherited some money and so had the opportunity, not through any burning feeling that my system was deficient.

but secondhand buying does require a lot more effort unless you are lucky enough to find a dealer with appropriate stock, and whilst I haven't had the chance to audition everything at home I have been known to cart my rather bulky speakers, and other stuff, to various locations to allow comparative assessments. But agreed, home listening is the only way to be sure, especially with speakers.

IB, just curious - how does your Bryston sound? Is there any comparable Naim int amp or pre/amp?

Peter Dinh posted:

IB, just curious - how does your Bryston sound? Is there any comparable Naim int amp or pre/amp?

No comparable Naim intefpgrated or pre, as the Bryston is purely a power amp. (i don't use a preamp in the system, Dave being very good driving the power amp (as was Hugo before). As for how it sounds, not sure that I can answer that as I struggle with descriptors other than comparatively, and I haven't tried a side-by-side comparison with anything. Music is very clear and crisp, and it certainly drives the PMCs very well with excellent control, though if I play seriously loud some music pushes it into momentary clipping on peaks despite its available 500w into the speakers' 4Ω impedance - but that is infrequent. I haven't yet got around to doing a proper comparison with the old P270, though some time I will, and the possibility of biamping with the two amps, is something I may evaluate one day.

I am surprised no one has given him the most obvious advice:

Stay away from the "The Journey Is Over" thread!

DrMark posted:

Stay away from the "The Journey Is Over" thread!

Guess, which thread I was immediately going to look for? 

Well, I just read half of the opening post that says:

From The Journey Is Over thread:

about 3 years ago I started on the sonos journey , and now use this setup all of the time. It's reliable and so easy to use and switch between songs.

I was on the Sonos journey for a few years and early last year decided to leave that kindergarten. 

Err... don't!  (Hint - look at forum members' profiles)

KR, J

Hi Bastian,

I´m gone a diferent way from the people here and also like you I´ve started this time by the speakers, some Neat Motive 1 which then lead me to...Naim electronics!

Beeing new in the Naim brand ( 2 years ) I  cannot advise you on which to go, but I can share my experience from some years.

One of the most important issue for me, was always speakers, and the reason is that, more than  other equipment, they do change a lot the type of presentation, and have to be adapted to your listening room or area. You will have a lot of people that with the same equipment, found diferent results when changing room, the same equipment might not sound as good as before....  special when you change house  that happens a lot...

Another important point that you have to look for is that, what you listening in the store is not always what you ear in you place/home/room ( read above ), and if people are honest you will ear a lot of us assuming that fact, at our place it didn´t sound as good as in the store. 

The forum has a lot of honest people with a lot of experience, pick up their sugestions as I did and start by there, it´s a safe start to get it right faster, BUT trust your ears! 

Another tip - Some times we describe the way that we like the presentation the same way, as an example, what is a deep and controled bass that we all describe the same way, in reality is not the same type of bass that each one of us, real ears...., we described it the same away....  so once, more trust your ears!

B&W are good speakers, and if you like the presentation that´s a good start.

BR

RM

Apart from my tongue in cheek "advice" above, I can share a personal anecdote on my system journey that may buttress what others have said.

For years I had an Olive system (CDX/72/HC/250/SBL) and when I was back in school I decided to modernize/minimize and hopefully free up some much needed cash in the process. As much as I loved my SBLs, the 3-D puzzle that they are when moving and such was kind of tiresome, and I wanted to change to stand mounts.

I had heard & really liked Totem Manis in the past, and I got a pair of those on the SH market, and bought a Naim n-Vi to run it. I have related the story about how the n-Vi was simply not up to the task of driving those speakers at all in the past, so I will not elaborate on that...but it was an un-listenable situation. (And keep in mind, the n-Vi was rated in the Naim spec sheet at 50 W into 8 ohms and 90 W into 4 ohms.) But the situation was bad, even brutal.

In fact, I was so distraught about it that I took my entire Olive system, which I had boxed up and was sitting ready to be shipped out the next day (the SBLs were already gone) and unsealed all the boxes, hastily assembled the entire kit back (with no regard to component placement - I just stacked them on top of each other for the test) and even cold out of the box, the Olives made the Manis sound great...and obviously properly set up and warmed it would have even gotten better. I just needed a sanity check at that moment.

Moral of my parable: if you build from a speaker, you may run into a similar situation. I will agree with others that the speakers are the most challenging part of system building, and as several have pointed out, what you hear in the store may well not be what you hear at home. Many folks on this forum have B&W speakers, and they are very happy. But I would not start there and work backwards, nor would I hone in on one particular speaker and try to build around it.

The key is listening, be open to demo or trade-in gear, and consider some of the other brands mentioned already. In doing all this, you may very well end up with the same speakers you are after at the start of the thread. But I had a known good speaker, and ran into big trouble when I went that route.

And as others again have said, establish a good relationship with a good Naim dealer, and do NOT be in a hurry (I know, it is very hard not to be), and have demos, home demos, and have him set up the system for you. If you think you like a particular combo on listening, walk away, come back, and listen again...or better, arrange a home demo because speakers and rooms are the most tricky aspect of all this.

And most importantly enjoy your music!

Wise words from Zio Mark.

M

DrMark posted:

[…] and even cold out of the box, the Olives made the Manis sound great...and obviously properly set up and warmed it would have even gotten better. I just needed a sanity check at that moment.

Hm, I'm not sure if I get the point. So you stood with your beloved speakers and just had to find the right components to drive them? Now you (and a many others, too) tell me to not choose the speakers first. Sounds a bit like a paradox.

Maybe it would be helpful to hear what to do instead of which way to avoid.

I totally appreciate every feedback, really. But at the moment there's more confusion than clearness.

Just out of interest - is your dealer  in the Bucks area?  

As other members have said, the quality of dealers is somewhat variable and in the context of a £10k-12k budget I would be wary of a dealer (even a Naim dealer) who recommended the 804D as the right speaker for you.  I've heard the 804D with a high spec LP12 and a very respectable Naim front (252/250/SC)  and was completely underwhelmed - "boom - tizz"- soggy poorly controlled bass and lots of  top-end; it's quite possible that the 804D sounds fine in a 552/300 system but that's well in excess of £12k's worth.

Good advice from Richard and the other posters - don't pick out your speaker until you have the rest of the system chosen and, ideally, demoed in your own room.  In the context of a £12k system there are some great speakers around at the £4-5k level that work extremely well with Naim.

Hi Bastian - I was addressing what it appears you seem to be set to do yourself, based on your original post.

In the end I sold the Totems and the n-Vi, and went to a Naim dealer and started from the ground up. Ended up with a CD5X, FC 2X, a Nait XS, and a pair of ProAc standmounts. I got the electronics settled, and my dealer helped me select a speaker based on his inventory. I tried Studio 140s but after a home demo, decided on the Response D2s.

The point of the first part of my post is that I did what you seem to want to do - picked out a speaker and then tried to backfit electronics...and ended up not pulling hardly any money out of the whole affair because of the mistake I made.

My last 2 short paragraphs (reiterating what others have said) are more of the what to do advice...and the final stand alone sentence is a given!