Getting started with Naim, your recommendations

DrMark posted:

In the end I sold the Totems and the n-Vi, and went to a Naim dealer and started from the ground up. Ended up with a CD5X, FC 2X, a Nait XS, and a pair of ProAc standmounts. I got the electronics settled, and my dealer helped me select a speaker based on his inventory.

It's probably what's going to happen with me. I mean, of course I won't by speakers for 9'000.– without trying others. The Naim dealer I visited distributes speakers from B&W, Vandersteen, Focal, Ayon, Marten, Pro-Ject, Totem and some others. I guess, there are plenty of different options to try.

And if he can hook you up with combinations of new, demo, and trade in you can really stretch that budget even further. (Depending on what's about at the time.) Trust me, I am a cheapskate out of necessity!

Good luck.

Bastian posted:

DrMark posted:

[…] and even cold out of the box, the Olives made the Manis sound great...and obviously properly set up and warmed it would have even gotten better. I just needed a sanity check at that moment.

Hm, I'm not sure if I get the point. So you stood with your beloved speakers and just had to find the right components to drive them? Now you (and a many others, too) tell me to not choose the speakers first. Sounds a bit like a paradox.

Maybe it would be helpful to hear what to do instead of which way to avoid.

I totally appreciate every feedback, really. But at the moment there's more confusion than clearness.

You´ve got it ,

There´s no real a correct way to do it.

Can I assume that the choice of B&W is not only a musical choice but also a aesthetics decision? When I had my system in my living room my wife had a word on it , but now that I have my own dedicated room I can skip that department. That was the main reason of Speaker first in 80´s and the 90´s

I complete agree with the remain statments, try to test it at home and test it with music that you usually ear.

Good luck 

RM

Barratana posted: 

Can I assume that the choice of B&W is not only a musical choice but also a aesthetics decision?

You nailed it. I have absolutely no interest in putting ugly stuff inside my flat. But… if it's only the aesthetics I'd buy lovely furniture. Sure, the musical aspect is much more important.

I'd really like to know which speakers I should cross-compare to the 804 D3. They shouldn't be more expensive or much bigger.

Bastian posted:

Barratana posted: 

Can I assume that the choice of B&W is not only a musical choice but also a aesthetics decision?

You nailed it. I have absolutely no interest in putting ugly stuff inside my flat. But… if it's only the aesthetics I'd buy lovely furniture. Sure, the musical aspect is much more important.

I'd really like to know which speakers I should cross-compare to the 804 D3. They shouldn't be more expensive or much bigger.

Aesthetics are for sure not only the soundwaves hammering my ears but also the reflections of light to my retina.

I've been trying to get 'permission' to buy ovators for half a year. Showed my wife a photo of a B&W CM5 S2 in rosenut last week, she said 'that's ok'. I stepped in the car with my oldest daughter and bought them.

Wife happy, I'm happy and my kids can watch pink panther having hifi sound now.

Peace on earth at least locally.

It's part of the magic of B&W which I can understand.

Bastian posted:

Barratana posted: 

Can I assume that the choice of B&W is not only a musical choice but also a aesthetics decision?

You nailed it. I have absolutely no interest in putting ugly stuff inside my flat. But… if it's only the aesthetics I'd buy lovely furniture. Sure, the musical aspect is much more important.

I'd really like to know which speakers I should cross-compare to the 804 D3. They shouldn't be more expensive or much bigger.

Focal Sopra would be good to compare,  but I would suggest if you like the B&W 804 D3 then have them, other components can be found to drive them. In my own case my purchase order was dependant on the best deal available at any given time, so I bought speakers first, the offer at the time was just to good to miss..

No Worries, I did that, and we are not alone.

Try to listen to the 272/250 combo, there´s a lot of happy people with lots of experience in Naim brand here in the forum with it, so they cannot be wrong!

Just 2 boxes that may suit you, I´ve listened to it briefly, I´ve liked, but cannot assume conclusions on it.

Whatever you choose, you really have to listening first at your home, ( I know that is not always possible), but this is the best advise that you can have, and although we have different ways on reaching what we think is to us, the best sound system, all of us agree that you should always listen to it, if possible at your home, before make a decision.

PS. Yes the 804 D3 look great !!!!

Bastian posted:

I'd really like to know which speakers I should cross-compare to the 804 D3. They shouldn't be more expensive or much bigger.

PMCs: Twenty5.26 and Fact 8 are similar price to the 804. May be worth comparing the sound if that's the sort of money you intend spending. Predecessor Twenty.26 (and lesserr models in same range) readily available very young  secondhand, Fact 8 less common. I've previously mentioned an older PMC.

Bastian posted:

Barratana posted: 

Can I assume that the choice of B&W is not only a musical choice but also a aesthetics decision?

You nailed it. I have absolutely no interest in putting ugly stuff inside my flat. But… if it's only the aesthetics I'd buy lovely furniture. Sure, the musical aspect is much more important.

I'd really like to know which speakers I should cross-compare to the 804 D3. They shouldn't be more expensive or much bigger.

see if you can find a pair of Ovator s400 to audition :-)

hi Bastian, and welcome!

if i were starting over, needed a digital-only system, and had circa £12,000 to spend, i'd compare the following using the same speakers:

272/250DR

NDX/Supernait 2

Chord Hugo TT/250DR

once i'd landed on the preferred option, i'd stop and listen to a few of the alternatives out there, including (shock horror) the Linn active 530 system and the active Kudos Super 20 speakers with Linn amplification. these options feature digital room correction, so should sound pretty similar at home vs. at the dealer's place. the Devialet 220 pro would be good to check out, too.

if at that point Naim's still the preferred destination, i'd buy the electronics first and have a dealer bring speakers to try at home.

good luck and have fun!

--joe

If I were to start all over again (or maybe a second system in the not too far distant future hopefully), I would go for:

Chord Hugo TT/250DR

Cheers,
PD

Bastian,

TL;DR Buy the Hi-Fi first. Speakers second. It's the only sensible thing to do with Naim.

I'm strongly of the opinion that you should buy the electronics and then the speakers. There are plenty of examples here of people who have ended up chasing their tails trying to match a set of speakers to Naim electronics.

Coming from a Sonos setup, any combination of speaker and Naim electronics has the potential to sound great at first. It's only when you try different speakers that you will you truly find a match that brings your system to life. When that happens it's a very special moment. One worth working for.

I know it's not easy in Switzerland but every dealer I've had contact with was willing to let me try a set at home for a week or two.

I'd also consider a couple of room specific points.

If you apartment is a typical Swiss glass and concrete construction finding speakers that perform well with reflections is important. In my case that meant the transmission line on PMC speakers was better suited to my room than the traditionally ported B&W and Focal I was originally interested in.

Volume level is also important. Some speaker and amplifier combinations perform better at lower volumes than others. That could be relevant if you have neighbours close by. Although not fully run in, my NAP 250 DR is able to develop a much fuller Naim sound experience at lower volumes, than my NAP 100. Not a fair comparison; CHF 5.3K vs 1.1K, I know, but you get my point.

One thing to keep in mind. Naim's new Uniti line will support Roon. Later this month Roon will release 1.3 which supports sending audio to Sonos speakers, which could be handy if you plan to keep any of your Sonos speakers. Check it out.

wenger2015 posted:

Focal Sopra would be good to compare […]

 The Sopra are beyond my budget. The Electra 1038 Be would fit in it. Maybe I should put the Electra series on my list? Not sure if the Naim dealer got them, he has the Aria series promoted on the web. But looking at the price I don't think they compare to the 804 D3.

Tyranniux posted:

see if you can find a pair of Ovator s400 to audition :-)

 I never listened to an Ovator before. Are the s400 really a serious rival?

GregW posted:

Volume level is also important. Some speaker and amplifier combinations perform better at lower volumes than others. That could be relevant if you have neighbours close by. Although not fully run in, my NAP 250 DR is able to develop a much fuller Naim sound experience at lower volumes, than my NAP 100. Not a fair comparison; CHF 5.3K vs 1.1K, I know, but you get my point.

Yeah, the room is a bit tricky. That's why I definitely want to try the speakers at home before buying (or have the ability to return them after some time if they don't suit). I think this possibility is part of a good dealer relationship.

Also, in my apartment I have to place the boxes near the wall. Depending on their depth it won't be possible to place them half a meter in front of the wall. So that could get tricky, I don't know.

And the neighbours… Thankfully the opposite flat is a shared one with 5 students, two of them playing piano. I think they're not so complicated when it comes to listening to music. But the system also has to perform well on lower volumes for sure.

GregW posted:

One thing to keep in mind. Naim's new Uniti line will support Roon. Later this month Roon will release 1.3 which supports sending audio to Sonos speakers, which could be handy if you plan to keep any of your Sonos speakers. Check it out.

All Sonos equipment is already sold. The sound quality didn't match my needs for a living room hi-fi system. Additionally all that multi room nick-nack is not important to me. So there was just no reason to stick with Sonos.

Bastian posted:

Tyranniux posted:

see if you can find a pair of Ovator s400 to audition :-)

 I never listened to an Ovator before. Are the s400 really a serious rival?

Absolutely, if you like their sound. Nothing I auditioned came close for me, and I have owned B&W (still own a pair of DM602s3).

As ever your own ears will tell you.

ATB

Hi my advice is trail of to the dealers and have a good listen to various systems with a view to buying sh later. Don't get too hung up about speakers....yet....I would aim for 272, 250dr then buy a pair of new speakers to suit your taste/room. This system will give you plenty of clout and clarity.....and can be upgraded. 

Thanks for all your advice. Based on some replies I've gathered a (short) list of speakers I'd like to go to listen to. I wonder what the impressions will be:

• B&W 804 D4
• Focal Aria 936 / Electra 1038
• PMC Twenty5.26 / Fact 8
• Naim Ovator S-400
• Sonus Faber Venere Signature / Olympica II

One thing is certain: there will be some quite significant differences, despite the fact that this is getting into quite a high price bracket, and more so than differences you are likely to find between other different system components priced similarly to each other.

Make sure the amplifier(s) used are in your price range (though there is no harm also hearing with better amp to know what future upgrading might bring. Similarly source, though the amp can affect the performance of the speakers themselves.

Bastian posted:

Thanks for all your advice. Based on some replies I've gathered a (short) list of speakers I'd like to go to listen to. I wonder what the impressions will be:

• B&W 804 D4
• Focal Aria 936 / Electra 1038
• PMC Twenty5.26 / Fact 8
• Naim Ovator S-400
• Sonus Faber Venere Signature / Olympica II

A nice selection of speakers there. Problem is your setting yourself up for disappointment as you seem to be spending a large amount at the back end and not really thinking about the front end. A good dealer will be able to demonstrate a balanced approach to system building based on your needs.

There are some very good suggestions on systems in this thread. With 12k available, you have some really good options to consider both inside and outside of the Naim stable. 

Indeed so, James. It would be interesting to hear from Bastian whether what you, I, and many others are saying has been taken on board. Taking the Fact 8 as an example - very nice I'm sure but totally inappropriate for running with a Uniti. Finding the right electronics, whether Naim, Linn, Bryston, Chord or Devialet, and then choosing speakers is the most logical way to go. But is that what Bastian will do?

james n posted:

Problem is your setting yourself up for disappointment as you seem to be spending a large amount at the back end and not really thinking about the front end. A good dealer will be able to demonstrate a balanced approach to system building based on your needs.

 I think the front end is something that has to fit with the speakers. I assume that a good dealer presents his speakers with appropriate electronics. But my (limited) listening experience tells me that it's the speakers that determines the character how the music is presented. So in the first round it's important for me to know which character suits my taste.

Hungryhalibut posted:

Finding the right electronics, whether Naim, Linn, Bryston, Chord or Devialet, and then choosing speakers is the most logical way to go. 

I thought by joining the Naim forum and thinking about trying the upcoming Uniti (Star, Nova, whatever) is just what you and others proclaimed to do. 

Fair enough - it's your money but i'm sure your dealer won't be demonstrating speakers of this level with entry level electronics. You'll then set your heart on a pair and find you don't have the budget for appropriate electronics...

Anyway best of luck and enjoy your demos. 

James

Bastian posted:

james n posted:

Problem is your setting yourself up for disappointment as you seem to be spending a large amount at the back end and not really thinking about the front end. A good dealer will be able to demonstrate a balanced approach to system building based on your needs.

 I think the front end is something that has to fit with the speakers. I assume that a good dealer presents his speakers with appropriate electronics. But my (limited) listening experience tells me that it's the speakers that determines the character how the music is presented. So in the first round it's important for me to know which character suits my taste.

Go and listen to your proposed Atom/804 D4 system, then ask the dealer to stick a 300DR up them, then come back and tell us you still believe that.