Getting started with Naim, your recommendations

ChrisSU posted:

Go and listen to your proposed Atom/804 D4 system, then ask the dealer to stick a 300DR up them, then come back and tell us you still believe that.

That's not what I wanted to say.

What I suggest you do, especially given that the new range is not out yet, is to go back to your dealer and ask them to play you the best system they have for £10,000 to £12,000. Then see how that compares to what you heard before. Remember that you heard these B&Ws for only half an hour, in an unfamiliar room and with equipment that you are unsure of what it was - I'm sure you will agree that this cannot be a sound basis on which to draw any conclusions. Remember also that the advice you are getting is coming from people who have assembled Hifi systems over many years and are offering advice from experience, in order to help you get the best from your money. If you don't want to take any notice of that advice, then it seems there was little point in asking your questions in the first place. 

The OP already seems to have quite strong preconceived views about what he wants and how to build a system; the problem with free advice is that quite often little value is attributed to it.

Bastian, you may or may not know this, but HungryHalibut is very experienced with Naim, and offers very sensible advice.

I personally learnt the hard way, buying my B&W speakers first, then trying to make it work, but in the end, I gave up and sold the B&W speakers.

You should spend the most money on the electronics, particularly on the source (in the case of new Uniti's you just buy the one you can most afford) and you spend the remaining bit on speakers.

I have a chord Hugo, which I listen to in my car, on my Yamaha home cinema amp with KEF 2005.2 speaker, on my Bose soundtouch 30, on my 202/200, and on my 282/250DR with Dynaudio speakers, and also on my friends 552/500 with Sonus Faber Stradivari speakers (they cost 45,000 USD).

In each case I can clearly hear the Hugo.

Speaker are driven by the amp, which itself can only amplify the source. 

Now if you feel you want to pursue speakers first, fine, and you might even be very happy. but it is only because you won't know what you are really missing. 

Let's cut to the chase, not every speaker works well with Naim, for the "live" Naim sound.

With naim electronics, try Ovators, PMC, Focal, Neat, Kudos, ATC and Dynaudio.

Hi Bastian,
Welcome to the Naim forum and thank you for asking such a sensible, reasonable question.  You have clearly been impressed with the B&W 804D3 speakers that you have heard at a dealer and like the idea of building a Naim-B&W system around the 804D3 speakers for a total budget of £10-12,000.

Several forum members are highlighting a couple of possible conflicts or issues that are inherent in your initial vision for such a system:
The B&W 804 speakers (like their larger siblings) present a demanding load for amplifiers, so really need a Naim 250DR or better to control them well and reproduce music properly.  This immediately blows your budget.

While the 804 sounded great in the dealer, they produce a fair amount of deep bass, the same low frequencies that incite "room boom".  You may need speakers that are designed to be positioned closer to a wall.  This can be especially true in a smaller room - kindly advise the dimensions of your room.

Like several others who have posted, I too enjoyed listening to the new Uniti series at Naim HQ, paired with Focal Sopra 1 speakers.  The Uniti Nova sounded very good indeed and could well form the heart of a great £10-12k system for you.  But even the Nova may not be up to driving 804D3 speakers.  A circa £3-4k speakers from ATC, Neat, Kudos or Proac may well end up providing a more musically satisfying & balanced system for you in the end.

But, the most important thing is to find a decent dealer who can demonstrate the options for you and help you find the right path for you. 

Hope this helps, FT

Bastian posted:

james n posted:

Problem is your setting yourself up for disappointment as you seem to be spending a large amount at the back end and not really thinking about the front end. A good dealer will be able to demonstrate a balanced approach to system building based on your needs.

 I think the front end is something that has to fit with the speakers. I assume that a good dealer presents his speakers with appropriate electronics. But my (limited) listening experience tells me that it's the speakers that determines the character how the music is presented. So in the first round it's important for me to know which character suits my taste.

I agree with you - I think focussing on the speakers first and then moving back through the electronics is how i do things and has tended to give the best outcome and least disappointment/buyers remorse for me over the last thirty years or so. Most of us listen in a compromised environment - and so the speakers and how they interact and couple with our room have a major bearing on how we experience our recordings. Find a speaker that has a character you like and works in your room and then move back through the system. It started with me choosing a pair of Tannoy Mercury Mk2 in the 80s and then finding the electronics that matched with that and the sources that went with the electronics. That way I didn't end up with a mullet or having to use 'fancy cable tone controls' etc to try and tame a speaker that just wasn't right for my room with my electronics. There is little point in using electronics if the speakers you have found to be optimum in your environment don't match with your electronics. It is about synergy and the hardest component is the speaker/room interface for most of us and so that is where I would start.

Sure by all means get a feel of differing electronics at your dealer's demo facility - and then choose a subset to play with your chosen speakers. Lets face it most quality audio equipment is very capable - its just different manufacturers / brands focus on different characteristics - and you will find one that appeals more naturally to you - but only if you can hear it properly within your speaker/room environment. 

Simon

Some people argue 'source first' because you can't get out what you put in, but you also won't hear what you put in if any subsequent component won't let it through or out, so that argument is a bit of a fallacy. If upgrading is not planned a currently balanced system becomes more important, but also one that sounds good, to the owner.

In terms of system building, any upgrade intent, both long and short term, can be significant: choices for a system fixed indefinitely may well be different from one intended to have significant upgrades in the near future. I fully agree that the speaker is most important with regard to character of sound, and there are some speakers for which no source and amplification could make sound nice to me, however it is also clearly necessary that other components perform at least adequately. 

If everything is purchased new, £8k on speakers with a total budget of up to £12k does seem to be limiting on other components (e.g one approach might be Core-Hugo-Power amp-Speakers, but that leaves only about 1k for the amp - which might be acceptable if an upgrade to amp is visible in the not too far distant future provided that a £1k amp can be found that makes it sound adequate, but maybe less acceptable as a finished system.) However it could be very different if some things are purchased secondhand and ex-demo.

Innocent Bystander

The advantage of a Chord Hugo is that is literally goes where "you go" hence the name

So I have had the chance to try this everywhere, and in each case, from my car to my Bose sound dock all the way to 500 series Naim amplifiers, I could hear the clarity and musicality of the Hugo.

but your mileage may vary, your ears, money and taste.

I listen more for musicality, emotion and engagement, rather than bass treble mids etc, and in none of the cases I tried did the amp or the speaker hold back the Hugo, especially the clarity which you are well familiar with.

I once also tried unitiqute with B&W 600 speakers, with a German brand of speaker Magnat and it hit me clearly, I was listening the unitiqute, and the speakers give some minor changes, but the character of Naim electronics were clearly evident on both speakers. Music was engaging, with a big soundstage, huge clarity and dynamics. 

Hence choosing electronics to my experience is far, far more important than the speaker.

But choose a speaker that has high sensitivity, and also an impedance curve that is friendly, i.e. does not dip to 3 ohms.

I would start looking for a experienced Naim dealer where ever you are based and trust their advice.

analogmusic posted:

Innocent Bystander

The advantage of a Chord Hugo is that is literally goes where "you go" hence the name

So I have had the chance to try this everywhere, and in each case, from my car to my Bose sound dock all the way to 500 series Naim amplifiers, I could hear the clarity and musicality of the Hugo.

but your mileage may vary, your ears, money and taste.

I listen more for musicality, emotion and engagement, rather than bass treble mids etc, and in none of the cases I tried did the amp or the speaker hold back the Hugo, especially the clarity which you are well familiar with.

I didn't use my Hugo anywhere other than my one and only hifi system - but certainly it is a fantastic device and excellent vfm, and its portability is potentially an added advantage. (Apparently Rob Watts takes Dave on his travels, for music listening - but not being battery powered that clearly limits listening to where there is a line voltage power outlet.)

Great to hear that Hugo can noticeably improve even a car system and Bose sound dock! (Though presumably that depends on what it is compared with.) For clarification, I don't advocate using a poor source with good speakers - the source has to be at least good enough (whatever that means to each person), but the character of the speaker is the most difficult thing to get right, and they tend to be expensive if hearing the bottom octave or two is important. If I had a choice of Hugo into my PMCs, or Dave into something costing me £6.5k less, I would choose Hugo.

As for listening, in my case I simply listen and engage with the music, and never listen 'for' anything - but I notice and don't like it if part of the music is missing (whether the feel of the bass, or the tzing of the cymbals). I suppose that could be different if I didn't know something missing, e.g if a piece new to me, though as all parts generally contribute to the music of which they are a part I might like the music less if I heard only a version missing those parts (or, of course, it is always possible that the converse could be true if I first heard and liked a restricted version!)

Hungryhalibut posted:

What I suggest you do, especially given that the new range is not out yet, is to go back to your dealer and ask them to play you the best system they have for £10,000 to £12,000. Then see how that compares to what you heard before. Remember that you heard these B&Ws for only half an hour, in an unfamiliar room and with equipment that you are unsure of what it was - I'm sure you will agree that this cannot be a sound basis on which to draw any conclusions.

The idea of B&W as a manufacturer came from a listening session 9 months ago or so. That was the time I decided to invest in hi-fi equipment. So I visited a big dealer and told him that I was looking for a new hi-fi system and that I do not have any equipment yet. Like you said I announced a budget frame and waited for what he had to present me.

Interestingly, we ended up talking about speakers, not equipment. So there was B&W, Piega und a third manufacturer (can't remember the name right now). At least from that moment on I knew I was never going to buy speakers from Piega, I just don't like their sound.

Maybe it'd be an easier approach if I were continuing visiting different dealers and let them present me their best for my budget, regardless which speaker or equipment that might be.

Bastian posted:

 

Maybe it'd be an easier approach if I were continuing visiting different dealers and let them present me their best for my budget, regardless which speaker or equipment that might be.

Sounds like a plan. 

Bastian posted:

Hungryhalibut posted:

What I suggest you do, especially given that the new range is not out yet, is to go back to your dealer and ask them to play you the best system they have for £10,000 to £12,000. Then see how that compares to what you heard before. Remember that you heard these B&Ws for only half an hour, in an unfamiliar room and with equipment that you are unsure of what it was - I'm sure you will agree that this cannot be a sound basis on which to draw any conclusions.

The idea of B&W as a manufacturer came from a listening session 9 months ago or so. That was the time I decided to invest in hi-fi equipment. So I visited a big dealer and told him that I was looking for a new hi-fi system and that I do not have any equipment yet. Like you said I announced a budget frame and waited for what he had to present me.

Interestingly, we ended up talking about speakers, not equipment. So there was B&W, Piega und a third manufacturer (can't remember the name right now). At least from that moment on I knew I was never going to buy speakers from Piega, I just don't like their sound.

Maybe it'd be an easier approach if I were continuing visiting different dealers and let them present me their best for my budget, regardless which speaker or equipment that might be.

Bastian,

If considering a new pair of speakers you should certainly not base your decision on listening to one pair in one dealer.  I've recently changed my boxes and started from the position of already having a pretty good pair (Dynaudio) that worked well with my existing Roksan/Naim electronics.  I ended up listening to countless pairs in different dealers and several pairs at home and in the event chose the cheapest option purely because the synergy was right. And there were surprises on the way from being initially impressed with the Focal Sopra 1's to concluding that I couldn't possibly live with them.

Your situation is more complicated by having to choose the electronics as well.   Your suggestion to seek out a couple of dealers and get them to demonstrate system options for your budget is  a good way forward.  It is possible to plan from the speakers back but difficult in that you'd have to select speakers that you are sure will work in your room and then ensure you have enough resource left to fund the right electronics to optimise.  I wouldn't do it that way.  I'd start from roughly apportioning the budget = between source/amp/speakers and then start a process of selection.

For £10/12K NDX/SN2 or 272/250DR plus speakers would seem like a reasonable place to start.

Good luck.

Lindsay

According to your profile, you are from Switzerland. I have some family in Zurich and they have paid a million+ for an average appartment. Clean, stylish but not exactly spacious. Now, space is what you need for these B&W's. As far as I know B&W, I know that at least the CM series + 800 series need this. And once they have it, they can sound pretty good.

I think home-auditioning is the key to see if you still like them. Try the affordable supernait to start with. If thats ok, you could end up within budget (maybe).

Upgraditis will kick in after purchase and then you can add the Nap 300 + Streamer, then replace SN by 282 Pre-amp or so and then ... etc ...

You'll be around on this forum for years.

Ardbeg10y posted:

Try the affordable supernait to start with.

How would you compare the Supernait to the announced Uniti Nova? Price class seems to be the same. What advantages brings SN as a starting point?

Pros

Supernait is all amplifier, so keeps all the power for itself (unlike the Uniti series that has to power up the Network and DAC section)

Supernait is upgradeable by a Hicap DR bring lowers the noise floor, allows more music to flow and frees up the power amp (by powering the preamp)

Supernait is a powerful amp, most probably can drive 804D3 adequately.

 Cons

Supernait will need a source.... But nowadays plenty of choice from Naim DAC v1 to Chord Hugo.

Hi,

Don't make the mistake of listening to the B&W 803D3, with a NAP 300. You'll never look at 804 D3 again! I believe B&W 800 series sound really begins with the 803 speaker.

I ditto the above, choose wisely or you'll make a costly mistake!

Good luck.

Bastian posted:

Ardbeg10y posted:

Try the affordable supernait to start with.

How would you compare the Supernait to the announced Uniti Nova? Price class seems to be the same. What advantages brings SN as a starting point?

You'd compare them by waiting until the Nova actually exists in a dealership, and listening to them both in the same setup. Anything else is just conjecture at this point.

Ardbeg10y posted:

According to your profile, you are from Switzerland. I have some family in Zurich and they have paid a million+ for an average appartment. Clean, stylish but not exactly spacious. Now, space is what you need for these B&W's. As far as I know B&W, I know that at least the CM series + 800 series need this. And once they have it, they can sound pretty good.

I think home-auditioning is the key to see if you still like them. Try the affordable supernait to start with. If thats ok, you could end up within budget (maybe).

Upgraditis will kick in after purchase and then you can add the Nap 300 + Streamer, then replace SN by 282 Pre-amp or so and then ... etc ...

You'll be around on this forum for years.

Not everyone wants to spend their time and money upgrading. If the OP wants to buy a complete setup and live with it for five or ten years, it's a different scenario to one in which changes will be made, and one where it's more important to get it right from day one.  

Hungryhalibut posted:

Not everyone wants to spend their time and money upgrading. If the OP wants to buy a complete setup and live with it for five or ten years, it's a different scenario to one in which changes will be made, and one where it's more important to get it right from day one.

 That's it. I wouldn't deny any upgrade at all. I guess for my situation meaningful upgrades would be to add stuff instead of replace stuff. So starting with something all-in-one and adding a pre amp, power amp or/and power supply later makes sense.

I don't think I'd be happy with a system of single components I know I had to replace every once in a while.

Be aware that with any of the Uniti range all you can do is add a power amplifier, and that that will be constrained by the source and preamp within the all in one. My advice is to start with the  NDX/SN2 or 272/250. Both are upgradable by adding power supplies and without replacing them. Before I had my 272/250 I had a Superuniti and the difference was like chalk and cheese - the two box solutions are just so much better. 

If you are hooked by the B&W 800 series, try the 805. In my opinion better than the 804 and leaves you some money for the Amp / Source.

Hungryhalibut posted:

My advice is to start with the  NDX/SN2 or 272/250.

The latter would be a dream. I see I have to increase the budget… 

Ah, increased budget, now you're talking!!! A decent amp would fit in my last suggested system for just a few £k more, all new. A bit of secondhand in there and Hugo could upgrade to TT. A bit more budget and the Fact 8 could jump to Fact 12 or IB2SE, more still and you're looking at Dave...  Maybe it depends on what you mean by increased budget!

Not at all. Those two for £7,000 and speakers for £3,500 leaves £1,500 for a stand and speaker wires. 

Innocent Bystander posted:

Ah, increased budget, now you're talking!!! […]  Maybe it depends on what you mean by increased budget!

Let's see… own savings are £ 3'000 at the moment. That could get doubled by a loan. It currently increases by 600 every month. So it all depends on how long I wait.