My recent upgrade journey: 272, NDX, 282, 250DR, Hugo etc

Congratulations on the new system.

Some interesting observations. Not too sure how the comparison between the 272 / 250DR and NDX / 282 / 250DR was done as the source needs to be similar to derive meaningful conclusions. Having said that, it is useful to note that you have found the 282 / 250DR to be better than the NDX / 272 / 250DR by some margin. (I used to be curious about the differences between the NAC 282 and 272)

The other interesting observation is the comparison between the Hugo TT / 250DR and 282 / 250DR. Again, interesting findings that the Hugo TT bettered the NAC 282 when it was run directly with the NAP 250DR although you mentioned it was very close. I can only imagine the level of clarity and detail on the Hugo TT / 250DR to be better than the NAC 282 / NAP 250DR.

When you compared the Hugo TT / NAP 250 DR to the NAC 282 / NAP 250 DR, did you have the Hugo TT or NDX connected to the NAC 282?

very interesting and thanks for posting....

I must try Hugo TT into my Nap 250 DR, but I also have a turntable as a source, so haven't been able to motivate myself to order the necessary interconnects from TT direct into 250 DR.

analogmusic posted:

very interesting and thanks for posting....

I must try Hugo TT into my Nap 250 DR, but I also have a turntable as a source, so haven't been able to motivate myself to order the necessary interconnects from TT direct into 250 DR.

 

If I am not mistaken, you also have the NAC 282 isn't it? Other than the ordering of interconnects, I am guessing that the other reason you have not tried running the Hugo TT direct to the NAP 250 DR is you are afraid the NAC 282 may end up on the classifieds once you have done the comparison.

The Hugo TT is certainly gaining a lot of popularity. The only reason I am not considering the TT is I am planning to stick with the system (NAC 282 / NAP 250 DR) for good.

No Ryder, it is because I use a turntable with my 282 and I am not prepared to give up on my Vinyl collection.

I did try Hugo direct into NAP 100 and it didn't quite click for me musically.

There is also that signal earthing issue.

Sorry Analogmusic, I thought you own the Hugo TT but it's the Hugo that you have. If the Hugo TT rev 2 (non-existent product at this point of time) has additional inputs for another source, it may have a wider appeal.

Somehow I still have a slight preference to match a Naim preamp with the matching power amp although I will only have a maximum of 2 sources for any system (one CD, 1 digital).

Elevensheep posted:

 

I do get a sense that the DACs in the 272 and NDX is the weak link, and that these products could be substantially improved when Naim releases their newer generation of DAC products. 

 

Really? Most of the SQ performance is made by the external circuitry, especially with external I2V conversion and external DSP as is the case with the Texas Instruments DAC chips Naim mostly use.

The NDX uses the TI PCM 1791A converter

The N-272 uses the TI PCM 1792A converter, which is very current and highly regarded in many circles. It is technically superior to the 1791A, but as I say SQ is mostly down to implementation.

Talking of implementation, the NDS and Naim DAC use the TI PCM 1704K implementation... these are very old converters and according to TI not recommended for new designs. It is also technically inferior to the 1792A but is highly regarded for its sound and ability to integrate to, i.e. It allows some great implementations around it, which I guess is one reason Naim use it still on their flagship products. It also uses older technology and is very much more expensive to make than the above chips for the given performance.

The TI devices can use their own DSP or use an external processor such as the programmable Analog Devices SHARC digital signal processors Naim use running Naim micro controller code.

The Chord Electronics devices, such as the Hugo and HugoTT use a custom designed '4E pulse array' DAC chip fed by a programmable Xilinx Spartan 6 programmable DSP FPGA processor running Rob Watts code.

Now what i find interesting is that digital to analogue conversion is a 'lossy' reconstruction process.. it's inexact.. also there are many ways to perform it with different compromises to be made. Some of these compromises are through real world physical constraints of technology. However Chord Electronics through the use of the Spartan 6 processor have allowed a level of analogue reconstruction method that for the most part has been hitherto impractical for audio. I believe it is this reconstruction technique that those that listen to the Hugo are mostly enjoying if they have a preference... DSP reconstruction filtering in my book falls under the 'implentation' banner. However the level of expertise here is immense and I suspect we won't see this path from Naim with them instead using more industry standard building blocks albeit  implemented exceedingly well... but I hope I am wrong.

Simon

As long as Naim is able to extract high standards of musical performance from a DAC like 1792, Naim has no real commercial reasons to invest in FPGA technology. Naim do want their sources to have a certain performance, which can be easily heard if doing A/B comparisons.

having heard a Must QB recently, it was musical, it was Naim like, and very enjoyable. Could I live with it as my only musical playback device. yes I could, if I had to.

In their amplifiers, also, Naim were not the most resolving compared to other amplifiers (although with the DR amps, this gap has been addressed), but it boogies, it makes music, and as per the founder of Naim, qualities like soundstage and depth are not required to enjoy a musical performance, i.e. hear what the people on the recording are doing. As he said music is about people, one has to be able to hear how they are playing.

Hi Ali, yes best not mix DAC and DSP. The FPGA processor is used for the DSP processing on the Hugo, not the DAC. On Naim they use the AD SHARC DSP microcontroller instead. So if Naim wanted to and develop more natural/accurate reconstruction techniques they could no doubt do this by using a Xilinx based FPGA DSP processor in place of the SHARC icrocontroller to feed the actual DA converter such as the PCM1792A.. but as you you and I say perhaps this unlikely and Naim will stick with the more 'standard' Analog Devices digital signal processors as the investment in expertise here will be significant with no doubt high development costs.

Simon

ryder. posted:

 

When you compared the Hugo TT / NAP 250 DR to the NAC 282 / NAP 250 DR, did you have the Hugo TT or NDX connected to the NAC 282?

A NDX was used to front the 282 and the TT. Source of music for all was from Tidal. 

Hi Simon, agree, the FPGA not only does the WTA filtering, but also the noise shaper, which then outputs a 5 bit signal to the pulse array.

So the FPGA is (regardless of the digital filter) an integral part of a Chord Pulse Array DAC.

Naim could use an FPGA to do the digital filtering, As Linn do in their streamers.

Maybe we will see this in a flagship streaming product someday, but after having compared Hugo TT to equivalent Naim sources, I can understand Naim's approach.

For my digital sources, I prefer Chord's approach

Elevensheep It would have been interesting to see how things change if at all with local streaming... Tidal with Naim transports i would say is still not top flight performance, in my humble opinion of course..

Ali, yes the TI devices Naim use can use their own internal DSP (DF) if required, but the Chord Electronics 4E pulse array DAC always needs an external DSP as part of its reconstruction filter.. in this case the programmed Spartan 6 processor (which is a FPGA device).

Yes I prefer the Chord Electronics approach overall as well, but I do love the Naim sound from CDX2.. that seems so unique to Naim, and non of their DACs or streamers come close to pulling it off quite like the CDX2, yes not ideal for all music, but there is a narrowish passband of musical styles where it gels.... analogue reconstruction is a funny old game...

PS Happy New Year!

Simon - thanks for the detailed reply.

I am a novice when it comes to electronics, my comment re Naim needing a newer generation of DAC to be competitive stems from my experiences in deoming the likes of NDX, nDac, 272 against competing products such as the Auralic Vega and the Chord Hugo (original and the TT), which I felt were superior to the Naim offerings from sound quality as well as value for money perspectives. 

Now both the Vega and the Hugo use proprietary processors. Hence, my intuition that perhaps to have a sonic edge when it comes to DACs one needs to invest in R&D and create something which is proprietary. Using $10 OEM chips such as 1792A means that you are at the same starting point as the rest of the competition. However, I do take your point about implementation.  

Theory aside, I actually really wanted to like the 272 - it was the cheapest of the various options I explored, and other than the Devialet, had the least box count. But unfortunately, sonically it wasn't able to reach the same high standards as the other options I tried. 

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Elevensheep It would have been interesting to see how things change if at all with local streaming... Tidal with Naim transports i would say is still not top flight performance, in my humble opinion of course..

I would never do a serious comparison with Tidal as the source.  I've found it quite sub-par vs. locally served 16/44 (or higher res) content from my nas, or vs. a usb stick.  The best I can describe it is that Tidal lossless still sounds a bit 'lossy' to me; it's just far from all there for me for a 'serious listen.'  

Bart posted:

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Elevensheep It would have been interesting to see how things change if at all with local streaming... Tidal with Naim transports i would say is still not top flight performance, in my humble opinion of course..

I would never do a serious comparison with Tidal as the source.  I've found it quite sub-par vs. locally served 16/44 (or higher res) content from my nas, or vs. a usb stick.  The best I can describe it is that Tidal lossless still sounds a bit 'lossy' to me; it's just far from all there for me for a 'serious listen.'  

Bart, I don't disagree that the things could sound differently using Tidal vs say local steaming. I have tested extensively using my own system, to my ears the difference mostly comes from different masterings of the same CD, and in most instances the difference was negligible  

Nowadays I only use Tidal (more convenient, allows me to explore more music etc) and my music collection NAS hasn't been turned on in months. Hence I demoed using Tidal as the only music source (other than for Devialet) to reflected my personal usage and to ensure consistency in making comparisons. 

Elevensheep posted:

A NDX was used to front the 282 and the TT. Source of music for all was from Tidal. 

Thanks for the response. If my understanding is correct, the following were run:-

1. NDX ==> Hugo TT ==> NAP 250 DR

2. NDX ==> NAC 282 ==> NAP 250 DR

Did you run NDX ==> Hugo TT ==> NAC 282 ==> NAP 250 DR ? It would be interesting to compare this arrangement with 1. above. Also, in my opinion it would be a fairer comparison to isolate the NAC 282 as the Hugo TT as a source may be higher quality than the NDX.

Bart posted:

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Elevensheep It would have been interesting to see how things change if at all with local streaming... Tidal with Naim transports i would say is still not top flight performance, in my humble opinion of course..

I would never do a serious comparison with Tidal as the source.  I've found it quite sub-par vs. locally served 16/44 (or higher res) content from my nas, or vs. a usb stick.  The best I can describe it is that Tidal lossless still sounds a bit 'lossy' to me; it's just far from all there for me for a 'serious listen.'  

I have to agree on this,  I have been listening to Tidal on my home system on & off (& not very enthusiastically it has to be said) since Naim first intro'd it.  More recently with a friend on his non-naim system, we compared Tidal, Spoty, Qobuz & Deezer (these differences aside)  to local streaming from his NAS.  We compared the streaming services to the same tracks taken from ripped CDs, so all were 16/44 (at best)   NAS is best,  no question   but clearly so much better with anything better than 16/44; and surely that has to be the point of owning 272 - NDX level audio,  to listen to the highest resolution material that is available & that means 24-bit & DSD.  

Hi Simon, happy new year to you also.

I can understand your appreciation of CDX2, one of my dear friends has a CD555/PS555 and although I use Chord Mojo and Hugo DAC myself,  every time he plays a CD on the Naim CD555, it always, always, without fail, brings a smile to my face, and sounds so musical. Amazing, really. Something magical about the CD555, I can hear it from the first note.

Mr Sheep,

Always great to read of someone arriving at a solution that suits.  

Thank you also for confirming what I've always thought that the NDX/282 provides a sonic superiority over the 272.  

Regards,

Lindsay

analogmusic posted:

Hi Simon, happy new year to you also.

I can understand your appreciation of CDX2, one of my dear friends has a CD555/PS555 and although I use Chord Mojo and Hugo DAC myself,  every time he plays a CD on the Naim CD555, it always, always, without fail, brings a smile to my face, and sounds so musical. Amazing, really. Something magical about the CD555, I can hear it from the first note.

Analogue,

One of the things that always disappoints me at a high end Naim demo is that they won't use a Cd555.  Understandable that they wish to extol the fruits of their investment in streaming technology but I have to agree the Cd555 delivers quite breathtaking performance.  

Regards,

Lindsay

The Strat (Fender) posted:

Mr Sheep,

Always great to read of someone arriving at a solution that suits.  

Thank you also for confirming what I've always thought that the NDX/282 provides a sonic superiority over the 272.  

Regards,

Lindsay

 

But at the double price Tag!  Without going into PS Additions! 

272 an excellent VFM option in this case at very close SQ

analogmusic posted:

very interesting and thanks for posting....

I must try Hugo TT into my Nap 250 DR, but I also have a turntable as a source, so haven't been able to motivate myself to order the necessary interconnects from TT direct into 250 DR.

 

A certain auction site has 2xRCA to 3 pin XLR for £30 which I used when trying the TT / 250DR at home and before plumping for the Chord Sig. TA as the permanent interconnect of choice.

Works fine for little outlay.

G

Emre posted:

The Strat (Fender) posted:

Mr Sheep,

Always great to read of someone arriving at a solution that suits.  

Thank you also for confirming what I've always thought that the NDX/282 provides a sonic superiority over the 272.  

Regards,

Lindsay

 

But at the double price Tag!  Without going into PS Additions! 

272 an excellent VFM option in this case at very close SQ

 

Well both NDX and 272 benefit considerably from an XPS.   As to how close the relative performance - not in my opinion.  

Elevensheep posted:

 

Nowadays I only use Tidal (more convenient, allows me to explore more music etc) and my music collection NAS hasn't been turned on in months. Hence I demoed using Tidal as the only music source (other than for Devialet) to reflected my personal usage and to ensure consistency in making comparisons. 

I'm curious as to what you found unsatisfactory with Mac Mini / Audirvana. How did you have it set up? (Headless, and fully optimised using dedicated usb bus output? If so, what isolator did you use between it and Hugo?) 

I haven't tried Tidal on Audirvana because it holds no interest for me, so I have no idea of the sound quality, but locally stored files sound great, better than using an ND5XS as renderer, and very similar to Melco N1A performing the same function as MM/Au/isolator. 

I presume you didn't demo the Core because its storage function would be superfluous to you.

Emre posted:

The Strat (Fender) posted:

Mr Sheep,

Always great to read of someone arriving at a solution that suits.  

Thank you also for confirming what I've always thought that the NDX/282 provides a sonic superiority over the 272.  

Regards,

Lindsay

 

But at the double price Tag!  Without going into PS Additions! 

272 an excellent VFM option in this case at very close SQ

 

Actually nearly triple, if you include a Hicap for the 282.  Which the OP would have had to really, given that a 250 was in play.  A quick look at Audio T's site came up with £9516 vs £3469, so 2.74 times the price.  It'd have been a bit fairer money wise to include an XPS on the 272, as that'd have brought it up to £7289.  Just out of interest, a TT plus Aries comes to £4490, but obviously can't do anything with analogue sources.

Regardless, great that you got a new system that you're happy with, ELEVENSHEEP, and thanks for sharing your thoughts.  There are a few around here who run a TT or similar straight into a power amp.  I'll be interested to try doing the same if/when the time comes.