My recent upgrade journey: 272, NDX, 282, 250DR, Hugo etc

Rider, 1, 2 - yes correct. I didn't demo the NDX / Hugo / 282 option as this wasn't an option I could afford, but in retrospect i should have tried it at least for completeness.

The Strat (Fender) posted:

Mr Sheep,

Always great to read of someone arriving at a solution that suits.  

Thank you also for confirming what I've always thought that the NDX/282 provides a sonic superiority over the 272.  

Regards,

Lindsay

Linday, the 272/250DR combination was very good, I could have easily lived with that set up if I hadn't demoed the others, which were all more expensive btw, but still within my budget.

The NDX/282/250DR is clearly better, and so it should, given the price difference. My dealer thinks sound quality wise 272 is somewhere between ND5XS/202 and NDX/282, but a bit closer to the later combination. An interesting question is how the NDX/282/250DR compares with 272/XPS/250DR as cost wise they are close. 

GraemeH posted:

 

A certain auction site has 2xRCA to 3 pin XLR for £30 which I used when trying the TT / 250DR at home and before plumping for the Chord Sig. TA as the permanent interconnect of choice.

Works fine for little outlay.

G

Graemeh - where did you buy the Chord cable? I couldn't find a XLR - RCA option on their website. I currently use a flashback cable. 

Innocent Bystander posted:

 

I'm curious as to what you found unsatisfactory with Mac Mini / Audirvana. How did you have it set up? (Headless, and fully optimised using dedicated usb bus output? If so, what isolator did you use between it and Hugo?) 

I haven't tried Tidal on Audirvana because it holds no interest for me, so I have no idea of the sound quality, but locally stored files sound great, better than using an ND5XS as renderer, and very similar to Melco N1A performing the same function as MM/Au/isolator. 

I presume you didn't demo the Core because its storage function would be superfluous to you.

 

IB - I had my 2010 Mac Mini running Audirvana for the last couple of years, and was very happy with its performance - headless but with no dedicated USB. Unfortunately the Mini broke down after 6 years of service earlier in the year, which prompted me to try other options.

The Auralic Aries which I ended up buying is essentially a computer which is designed and optimised for audio play back, and had excellent Tidal integration. I wasn't able to demo A/B Mini vs Aries, but ultimately went with the Aires as I thought was a simpler setup, and based on the various reviews I read, sound quality wise should be a bit better too. 

Dave***t posted:

 

Actually nearly triple, if you include a Hicap for the 282.  Which the OP would have had to really, given that a 250 was in play.  A quick look at Audio T's site came up with £9516 vs £3469, so 2.74 times the price.  It'd have been a bit fairer money wise to include an XPS on the 272, as that'd have brought it up to £7289.  Just out of interest, a TT plus Aries comes to £4490, but obviously can't do anything with analogue sources.

Regardless, great that you got a new system that you're happy with, ELEVENSHEEP, and thanks for sharing your thoughts.  There are a few around here who run a TT or similar straight into a power amp.  I'll be interested to try doing the same if/when the time comes.

 

Hi Dave, the 272 / 250DR was the cheapest, most convenient and elegant option I tried - very good VFM I thought. 

Unfortunately from a sound quality perspective, it was also the weakest option. My budget allowed for the Aries / TT combination, which I thought was quite bit better SQ wise than the 272. If I wanted to spend less, and given sound quality is top priority for me, I would have gone for the normal Hugo with Aries combination (or Mac Mini + Audirvana) which would have been cheaper yet sonically superior to the 272. 

Running the TT straight into the 250DR has been amazing. The fact it also eliminates the use of a pre-Amp is a bonus. I would have never thought of doing that without the helpful insights from others in this forum!

Mr Sheep - comprehensive reply thanks.  Well done on not only achieving an excellent solution but for working through the options in such a logical manner - not easy.  

Regards,

Lindsay

[@mention:1566878603953355]

Graemeh - where did you buy the Chord cable? I couldn't find a XLR - RCA option on their website. I currently use a flashback cable.

Give Chord a ring and explain what the cable is for (they have made plenty they told me) and they will make one for you in any of the range - no extra cost over retail. Also worth a discussion about your whole system and budget to ensure you get the best balance.

I sold a 2016 282 and got dealer discount on the TT so rationalised I had enough funds to 'include' the Sig TA as 'part of the TT' package.

G

analogmusic posted:

very interesting and thanks for posting....

I must try Hugo TT into my Nap 250 DR, but I also have a turntable as a source, so haven't been able to motivate myself to order the necessary interconnects from TT direct into 250 DR.

 

Analogmusic,

I notice from a number of threads on the Head-Fi forum that you're now the proud owner of a Chord DAVE so congratulations.  You mention the TT but aren't you tempted to try Dave direct in to the 250DR cutting out the 282? No doubt your dealer will have a suitable cable that can be borrowed.  

That would be a very interesting combination and your thoughts would be appreciated.

comon analog dont be shy, tell us about Dave!

Elevensheep posted:

 

Rider, 1, 2 - yes correct. I didn't demo the NDX / Hugo / 282 option as this wasn't an option I could afford, but in retrospect i should have tried it at least for completeness.

Running the TT straight into the 250DR has been amazing. The fact it also eliminates the use of a pre-Amp is a bonus. I would have never thought of doing that without the helpful insights from others in this forum!

Elevensheep, don't worry about it. Even though you have not tried running the Hugo TT direct into the NAC 282, it was proven that the Hugo TT / NAP 250 DR worked the best for your requirements. That is all that matters.

Enjoy the system as it is.

Thank you Musicnuttyboy and Emre and happy new year to both.

Yes will try Dave into my NAP 250DR and will post.

What I have tried is Dave into Linn active 350 A speakers, and then Dave ---> Linn Klimax Kontrol preamp ---> Linn 350 A active speakers

Dave sounded better, (soundstage was better also) with the Linn preamp. This is consistent with a Linn forum member who tried the Latest Linn Klimax Katalyst streamer into the same speakers (I think) with and without the Linn preamp, and he did find adding the Linn preamp was better.

This does contradict what Rob watts and Linn say (no preamp is better), and also what 2 people here have posted in terms of Hugo TT -- 250 DR is very good, and 282 is not needed.

Maybe the Linn active speakers work better with their own preamp, so I will have to try Dave into 250 DR and report back.

analogmusic posted:

Thank you Musicnuttyboy and Emre and happy new year to both.

Yes will try Dave into my NAP 250DR and will post...

...This does contradict what Rob watts and Linn say (no preamp is better), and also what 2 people here have posted in terms of Hugo TT -- 250 DR is very good, and 282 is not needed.

Maybe the Linn active speakers work better with their own preamp, so I will have to try Dave into 250 DR and report back.

I'll be interested in your findings here as a significant DAC upgrade is my only logical move if funds ever permit over the next few years.

G

GraemeH, what length of RCA to XLR did you order for your Hugo TT to 250 DR?

I'll get them from flashback cables initially to try out.

analogmusic posted:

GraemeH, what length of RCA to XLR did you order for your Hugo TT to 250 DR?

I'll get them from flashback cables initially to try out.

I bought a 0.5m of their "premier cable

Looking forward to your review of Dave, with trepidation...

Elevensheep posted:

Due to a severe case of upgraditis around Christmas, following extensive demos, and thanks to helpful insights from this forum, I have settled upon a system consisted of Auralic Aries - Hugo TT - NAP 250DR - PMC 20.23. This to my ears was a substantial upgrade over the Mac mini - Hugo - SN2 system I have had over the last 2.5 years. 

Other options I considered: 

1) 272/250DR:  Sounded very good, and a combination I could have easily lived with. However, to my ears, the TT / 250DR combination was better - the 272 sounded less transparent and the sound stage was noticeably smaller. Although the all-Naim combination was easier to use - as I could control everything using an iPad. 

2) NDX / 282 / 250DR: Better than 272/250DR by some margin, but also at significantly higher cost. SQ wise, very close to the TT / 250DR level, but still not quite there. Rob Watts is right when he said that the use of a pre-amp would only degrade the sound quality of the Hugo, at least as far as the use of 282 is concerned. 

I do get a sense that the DACs in the 272 and NDX is the weak link, and that these products could be substantially improved when Naim releases their newer generation of DAC products. 

3) Devialet 200: Very good - detailed, transparent, although sounded a little "flat". Very different to the Naim sound which I am used to and like. I was told that the new Pro series is much better, although unfortunately i didn't get a chance to demo these. 

4) Auralic vs Aurender: Demoed the Auralic Aries vs the N10, with the later sounding slightly better i thought, but the difference was very small. I went with the Auralic in the end as the Aurender was significantly more expensive. 

Overall, very happy with the new system!

David

Thanks for your comments.

Your experiences mirrors mine after many auditions. My conclusion: as of today, 1-2-2017, NAIM DACs, including the nDAC with PS, are at best, second rate products. Ridiculously overpriced at that.

True lovers of HiFi put brand on the back burner and listening enjoyment on the front burner. I dare the lot of you to do a true blindfold comparison between the nDAC+PS with the likes of the Hugo TT, Schiit Yiggy, Holo Spring Level 3, and others.

DynFan160 posted

Thanks for your comments.

Your experiences mirrors mine after many auditions. My conclusion: as of today, 1-2-2017, NAIM DACs, including the nDAC with PS, are at best, second rate products. Ridiculously overpriced at that.

True lovers of HiFi put brand on the back burner and listening enjoyment on the front burner. I dare the lot of you to do a true blindfold comparison between the nDAC+PS with the likes of the Hugo TT, Schiit Yiggy, Holo Spring Level 3, and others.

I can't help but chuckle after reading your post. Sorry. I understand you are eager to prove a point, though I'd advise to tread with caution or this thread might end up being put in cold storage.

analogmusic posted:

GraemeH, what length of RCA to XLR did you order for your Hugo TT to 250 DR?

I'll get them from flashback cables initially to try out.

1m

G

Analogmusic, I would be equally interested with the comparison. It is interesting that the Dave will replace the Hugo TT, driving the NAP 250 DR directly. Not too sure if the preamp section(or whatever correct term) of the Dave is superior to the Hugo TT though. I would be very interested to know how the NAC 282 will compare when the Dave is connected to it.

I don't live in UK so the cables will take some time to arrive here.

In the mean time though, from what I heard and tested so far the NAC 172 and 202 can easily show differences between Hugo and Dave. 

I do remember Richard Dane saying that the Nait 5i can easily show the differences in Naim sources from CD5 all the way to CD555.

What would be interesting to know is if a 552 inserted between Hugo TT and  250DR beat the direct connection.

This would demonstrate if a preamplifier is still needed in this digital world.

cat345 posted:

What would be interesting to know is if a 552 inserted between Hugo TT and  250DR beat the direct connection.

This would demonstrate if a preamplifier is still needed in this digital world.

Or the 552 adds a bit of 'flavour' that the listener prefers ?

james n posted:

cat345 posted:

What would be interesting to know is if a 552 inserted between Hugo TT and  250DR beat the direct connection.

This would demonstrate if a preamplifier is still needed in this digital world.

Or the 552 adds a bit of 'flavour' that the listener prefers ?

Expensive taste...

G

cat345 posted:

What would be interesting to know is if a 552 inserted between Hugo TT and  250DR beat the direct connection.

This would demonstrate if a preamplifier is still needed in this digital world.

Or ultimately a power amp(s) - have the likes of ATC the final answer?

Dave and active speakers!  Vfm option, dave is at the nds price without PS, let alone 2 PS!

IMO, a NAC and NAP combo make one. Naim sources also possess the same dna.

You can Frankenstein the whole chain to your convenience depending how much you are comfortable getting away from the Naim sound.

Stictly following the vfm philosophy on a short term vision may not satisfy in the long term!

cat345 posted:

IMO, a NAC and NAP combo make one. Naim sources also possess the same dna.

You can Frankenstein the whole chain to your convenience depending how much you are comfortable getting away from the Naim sound.

Stictly following the vfm philosophy on a short term vision may not satisfy in the long term!

So, was a turntable as source + naim a 'Frankenstein'?

G

cat345 posted:

IMO, a NAC and NAP combo make one. Naim sources also possess the same dna.

You can Frankenstein the whole chain to your convenience depending how much you are comfortable getting away from the Naim sound.

Stictly following the vfm philosophy on a short term vision may not satisfy in the long term!

Or it may, if chosen on the basis of how they sound: vfm takes that into account, not just cost. And there are people on here that apparently like the 'Naim sound' but find some non-Naim components perfectly compatible!

GraemeH posted:

cat345 posted:

IMO, a NAC and NAP combo make one. Naim sources also possess the same dna.

You can Frankenstein the whole chain to your convenience depending how much you are comfortable getting away from the Naim sound.

Stictly following the vfm philosophy on a short term vision may not satisfy in the long term!

So, was a turntable as source + naim a 'Frankenstein'?

G

 

No, Ivorstein.

Another nice feature of running a DAC (of any flavor) into 250DR, ommitting the 282:  one will not be tempted by a Supercap.