My recent upgrade journey: 272, NDX, 282, 250DR, Hugo etc

cat345 posted:

GraemeH posted:

cat345 posted:

IMO, a NAC and NAP combo make one. Naim sources also possess the same dna.

You can Frankenstein the whole chain to your convenience depending how much you are comfortable getting away from the Naim sound.

Stictly following the vfm philosophy on a short term vision may not satisfy in the long term!

So, was a turntable as source + naim a 'Frankenstein'?

G

 

No, Ivorstein.

GraemeH posted:

cat345 posted:

IMO, a NAC and NAP combo make one. Naim sources also possess the same dna.

You can Frankenstein the whole chain to your convenience depending how much you are comfortable getting away from the Naim sound.

Stictly following the vfm philosophy on a short term vision may not satisfy in the long term!

So, was a turntable as source + naim a 'Frankenstein'?

G

 

Speakers? 

Hugo/lp12 and some rega is allowed in our cult! 

If Dave is an excellent source/pre than is a very but very good value compare to NDS/282-252/+PS collection

than i am at the wrong forum with my recent naim purchases, but i like the green lights anyway so be it! 

But the succes of chord dac/pres have to give Naim some thinking on their Dac and headphone amp game!

with 1000£ hugo you get an excellent headphone amp with 272 you get a avarage ( trying to be nice ) one

cat345 posted:

Stictly following the vfm philosophy on a short term vision may not satisfy in the long term!

Agree. Every purchase decision I have made based on something that is the best value for money option I have regretted soon after. 

So I got my cable today and tried Dave into 250 DR direct.

It is actually very good, and some aspects of sound improve (like bass and deeper soundstage)

But after a while, the music doesn't hold my attention as well as with the 282, the rhythmic aspect of music is less apparent.

Maybe it is a coloration that my 282 is adding, but I like it that way.

So the 282 stays.

To my ears, a Naim preamp is required for a Naim power amplifier. Maybe they are designed to only work well together.

Maybe with another brand of power amplifier, the Dave into that power amp would work very well. But not to my ears with directly into a Naim NAP Power amp.

There is a review of a NAC 552 on stereophile, and Michael Fremer wrote "what it always managed to do was grip the music in a way that helped delineate small and large rhythmic and dynamic gestures"

That is what I hear when I add the 282 back.

He also wrote "I preferred the Naim's presentations to the sources directly out, and that convinced me that I'm a "more can be more" audiophile, not a "less is more" type. Recordings are simply raw material—grist for the mill that is your stereo system. Whatever it takes to make a recording sound more vital and realistic is fine in my book. The Naim NAC 552 is what it takes."

analogmusic posted:

So I got my cable today and tried Dave into 250 DR direct.

It is actually very good, and some aspects of sound improve (like bass and deeper soundstage)

But after a while, the music doesn't hold my attention as well as with the 282, the rhythmic aspect of music are less apparent.

Maybe it is a coloration that my 282 is adding, but I like it that way.

So the 282 stays.

To my ears, a Naim preamp is required for a Naim power amplifier.

There is a review of a NAC 552 on stereophile, and Michael Fremer wrote "what it always managed to do was grip the music in a way that helped delineate small and large rhythmic and dynamic gestures"

That is what I hear when I add the 282 back.

From everything I've heard (sic!) on these forums it seems that the preamp is the primary component responsible for the 'Naim Sound', whether or not that is some sort of sound shaping as sometimes has been suggested, which perhaps this tends to confirm. That doesn't necessarily mean that a Naim preamp is necessary for a Naim power amp, but it might be necessary to maximise the 'Naim Sound'.

Innocent Bystander posted:

analogmusic posted:

So I got my cable today and tried Dave into 250 DR direct.

It is actually very good, and some aspects of sound improve (like bass and deeper soundstage)

But after a while, the music doesn't hold my attention as well as with the 282, the rhythmic aspect of music are less apparent.

Maybe it is a coloration that my 282 is adding, but I like it that way.

So the 282 stays.

To my ears, a Naim preamp is required for a Naim power amplifier.

There is a review of a NAC 552 on stereophile, and Michael Fremer wrote "what it always managed to do was grip the music in a way that helped delineate small and large rhythmic and dynamic gestures"

That is what I hear when I add the 282 back.

From everything I've heard (sic!) on these forums it seems that the preamp is the primary component responsible for the 'Naim Sound', whether or not that is some sort of sound shaping as sometimes has been suggested, which perhaps this tends to confirm. That doesn't necessarily mean that a Naim preamp is necessary for a Naim power amp, but it might be necessary to maximise the 'Naim Sound'.

I'm finding this out for myself now I've come to be in the market for a preamp. The preamp is the most important part of a classic Naim system. 

to my ears, i  hear that as Richard Dane once said "The Naim preamp and Naim power amp really are one amplifier" i.e they are incomplete without each other and are really designed to work together. Others might disagree, but that is what I hear.

I don't hear this issue i.e. lessening of rhythmic drive, when I plug headphones direct into Dave, Hugo or Mojo.

analogmusic posted:

So I got my cable today and tried Dave into 250 DR direct.

It is actually very good, and some aspects of sound improve (like bass and deeper soundstage)

But after a while, the music doesn't hold my attention as well as with the 282, the rhythmic aspect of music is less apparent.

Maybe it is a coloration that my 282 is adding, but I like it that way.

So the 282 stays.

To my ears, a Naim preamp is required for a Naim power amplifier. Maybe they are designed to only work well together.

Maybe with another brand of power amplifier, the Dave into that power amp would work very well. But not to my ears with directly into a Naim NAP Power amp.

There is a review of a NAC 552 on stereophile, and Michael Fremer wrote "what it always managed to do was grip the music in a way that helped delineate small and large rhythmic and dynamic gestures"

That is what I hear when I add the 282 back.

He also wrote "I preferred the Naim's presentations to the sources directly out, and that convinced me that I'm a "more can be more" audiophile, not a "less is more" type. Recordings are simply raw material—grist for the mill that is your stereo system. Whatever it takes to make a recording sound more vital and realistic is fine in my book. The Naim NAC 552 is what it takes."

Hi Analogmusic, interesting indeed. It might be useful to check whether new Chord components need to break-in to sound their best, and if yes the breaking in time required for the Dave. If the Dave continue to sound like the way it did for the next 7 days or so, your impressions will then hold water.

Having said that, it is good to know about your early impressions. I do not have extensive experience running sources directly into a power amp but used to run the Sony XA7ES as a preamp and can somehow relate to the experience. Levels of clarity and detail increase without the preamp but music loses the grip and punch ie. dynamics. There is a certain lightness to the sound although the clarity appear to be better. The slight loss of rhythm without the NAC 282 in place is likely the grip that Michael Fremer was referring to.

Would appreciate if you can update this thread if there are further "developments". From my experience, opinions can change through time either with the gear or ears breaking in, and changes in the setup ie. speaker placement, cabling etc. I would certainly wish that the NAC 282 will continue to stay in the system. :-)

Dave is a month old and according to chord does not need any running in.

now I'm not saying Dave into 250dr was bad. Far from it, it sounds excellent. Bigger soundstage and better bass for sure.

But I enjoyed music more with 282.

maybe the cable I got needs running in?

Also my experience is a result with my speakers, cables, preferences , taste, ears etc...

others may have different results, best to try it and hear for yourself.

When I first heard Dave it was with a 172/250.2, so one doesn't need to go very high in the Naim preamp line up to hear what Dave does.

analogmusic posted:

maybe the cable I got needs running in?

Some might scoff, but I wouldn't rule that out. It's at least worth seeing if things change with a bit more time.

What cable are you using?

A brand new cable from flashback cables.

However I have done the same test with Chord Dave and Also Klimax DS streamers on Linn equipment, to my ears same result

Bass better, and maybe better soundstage, but musical flow and rhythmic drive change.

I liked it better with the Linn preamp. Maybe the preamp adds something, but I like what it adds 

Not my experience with TT direct to 250DR via Chord Signature Tuned Aray. The 282 became surplus to requirements fairly swiftly!

G

analogmusic posted:

A brand new cable from flashback cables.

However I have done the same test with Chord Dave and Also Klimax DS streamers on Linn equipment, to my ears same result

Bass better, and maybe better soundstage, but musical flow and rhythmic drive change.

I liked it better with the Linn preamp. Maybe the preamp adds something, but I like what it adds 

I would definitely reserve judgement until you've allowed that cable to burn in, analog. Will be interested to see how it develops.

analogmusic posted:

So I got my cable today and tried Dave into 250 DR direct.

It is actually very good, and some aspects of sound improve (like bass and deeper soundstage)

But after a while, the music doesn't hold my attention as well as with the 282, the rhythmic aspect of music is less apparent.

Maybe it is a coloration that my 282 is adding, but I like it that way.

So the 282 stays.

To my ears, a Naim preamp is required for a Naim power amplifier. Maybe they are designed to only work well together.

Maybe with another brand of power amplifier, the Dave into that power amp would work very well. But not to my ears with directly into a Naim NAP Power amp.

There is a review of a NAC 552 on stereophile, and Michael Fremer wrote "what it always managed to do was grip the music in a way that helped delineate small and large rhythmic and dynamic gestures"

That is what I hear when I add the 282 back.

He also wrote "I preferred the Naim's presentations to the sources directly out, and that convinced me that I'm a "more can be more" audiophile, not a "less is more" type. Recordings are simply raw material—grist for the mill that is your stereo system. Whatever it takes to make a recording sound more vital and realistic is fine in my book. The Naim NAC 552 is what it takes."

Thanks for reporting back and very interesting observations.

I have also been experimenting with Hugo TT into SN2 (pre-Amp) and 250DR. To my ears, there is a clear difference between that setup vs the TT directly into 250DR (I also have a flashback cable).

The SN2 setup has a darker sound, with a narrower sound stage, whilst the TT direct setup is clearer, and has a more articulate bass

On balance I actually preferred the direct set up.

Elevensheep posted:

Thanks for reporting back and very interesting observations.

I have also been experimenting with Hugo TT into SN2 (pre-Amp) and 250DR. To my ears, there is a clear difference between that setup vs the TT directly into 250DR (I also have a flashback cable).

The SN2 setup has a darker sound, with a narrower sound stage, whilst the TT direct setup is clearer, and has a more articulate bass

On balance I actually preferred the direct set up.

May I ask how is the source connected to both Hugo TT and SN2. I presume the same source is connected to both.

The SN2's preamp is said to be darker sounding than the dedicated preamps which include the NAC 202.

ryder. posted:

Elevensheep posted:

Thanks for reporting back and very interesting observations.

I have also been experimenting with Hugo TT into SN2 (pre-Amp) and 250DR. To my ears, there is a clear difference between that setup vs the TT directly into 250DR (I also have a flashback cable).

The SN2 setup has a darker sound, with a narrower sound stage, whilst the TT direct setup is clearer, and has a more articulate bass

On balance I actually preferred the direct set up.

May I ask how is the source connected to both Hugo TT and SN2. I presume the same source is connected to both.

The SN2's preamp is said to be darker sounding than the dedicated preamps which include the NAC 202.

Source was an Auralic Aries

So its:

Aries - Hugo TT - 250DR

vs

Aries - Hugo TT - SN2 - 250DR