Core - Help me understand...I'm a little bit lost...

And what exactly is the question? I got a bit lost....

JF Lux posted:

I am wondering if [the Core] is something for me.

Adam, I found the above when I skimmed the post.

Chris

Adam Zielinski posted:

And what exactly is the question? I got a bit lost....

Erm, sorry...it is a bit of a long post, isn't it  But as Chris says, I'm trying to work out if the Core is a solution based on what I list out in the post.

i'm still a bit unsure...

JF Lux posted:

Adam Zielinski posted:

And what exactly is the question? I got a bit lost....

Erm, sorry...it is a bit of a long post, isn't it  But as Chris says, I'm trying to work out if the Core is a solution based on what I list out in the post.

i'm still a bit unsure...

Ok - let's try to narrow it down to maxium 3 bullet points, each one with one sentence only.

This will help focusing on your priorities.

JF Lux posted:

I will apologize upfront if this is either obvious or can be gleaned from other threads...but going to ask anyway...

I get that the Core is a ripper and storage device. But I am wondering if it is something for me.

My immediate objective is to improve on my source (Squeezebox Touch with EDO hi-res plug-in) and limit connection points from current NAS and basically "isolate" music files from NAS/home network. Thought process is to have music playing from storage direct to system without going through switches, cable runs etc (existing wired network is not with best CAT Ethernet cables and re-cabling would be quite some effort. Also thinking this will reduce SMPS in the circuit). The NAS will then be removed from the hi-if system but will be used as file back-up.

1) I have already ripped my CD's to a NAS (dbPoweramp for ripping; lossless FLAC; windows laptop used to rip) and do not want re-rip if I can help it - So is it simply just copying existing files from the NAS to a Core ? Would there be issues with metadata, file structure etc ?

Possibly. On the Core I am testing, it (or the app) doesn't recognize genre of music.

2) Rarely buy CD's now and instead download from Qobuz and HDTracks - Can the Core be used to directly download to or will it still need to be done via PC and then copy to Core ? (And then have the same issues from question 1, should there be any?)

Via PC and then copy to Core

3) I'm assuming the Core cannot be used in any way to stream Qobuz as it is not a streamer (but I can keep the SBT for that purpose) - correct?

That seems like a safe assumption. While the UnitiServe had some streaming functionality, this is now clearly limited to the streamers in the new Uniti range.

4) Does the Core (via the control app) bring system automation to the NAC202 and nDAC or is that just provided by NDX etc ?

No system automation for a preamp or DAC.

5) Or am I barking up the wrong tree (or just barking mad...) and what i want is not going to be easily answered by a Core and i should hold out and see if Naim brings out new streamer/renderer products...?

A streamer would appear to be the better option.

Right now I am not looking at an NDX - I have had one on home demo several months ago and whilst it was clearly a better source, it was marginal and definitely not a big enough improvement to justify the replacement of the SBT. However, that was when it was with a Rega DAC and before the nDAC.

Or should question 6 be go the MacMini/Audirvana route as this will be storage/renderer/Qobuz download...? With assumption that difference in replay quality (if any...) between MM and Core is going to be nuanced rather than spectacular...?

In my case, between a MacBookPro running Audirvana, and the Core, all into the Metrum Pavane DAC, there is very little difference. 

 (Current system is SBT with ability to replay up to 24/192; nDAC; NAC202/HICAPDR/NAPSC; NAP200(DR); SOnus Faber Toy Towers; NACa5 7m; Supra digital interconnect between SBT and nDAC; QNAP NAS) And before other options are suggested - dedicated mains not feasible; dedicated hi-if stand is planned anyway; will eventually change speakers but not right now as SWMBO seems to like the black leather  ; no plans to change amps for a couple of years. And if I can find a used 555ps (non-DR) for the nDAC I will get one...but these seem to be thin on the ground right now...

thanks in advance for feedback and thoughts.

I agree the NDX sounds only a bit better than the SBT.  That is not the NDX's fault -- the SBT is/was a miracle at its price point.  Still, the NDX package is a winner as an all-around performer.  If you want system automation and rather good FM, the price new or used is proportionate in the context of a Classic Naim system.  

It took me a while to come to this opinion.

Nick

Ok. Thanks all for the input. It does look like the Core is not for me right now.  Maybe it's time to bite the bullet and improve on the NAS/CAT cable/switch as the first step. 

JF Lux posted:

I will apologize upfront if this is either obvious or can be gleaned from other threads...but going to ask anyway...

I get that the Core is a ripper and storage device. But I am wondering if it is something for me.

My immediate objective is to improve on my source (Squeezebox Touch with EDO hi-res plug-in) and limit connection points from current NAS and basically "isolate" music files from NAS/home network. Thought process is to have music playing from storage direct to system without going through switches, cable runs etc (existing wired network is not with best CAT Ethernet cables and re-cabling would be quite some effort. Also thinking this will reduce SMPS in the circuit). The NAS will then be removed from the hi-if system but will be used as file back-up.

1) I have already ripped my CD's to a NAS (dbPoweramp for ripping; lossless FLAC; windows laptop used to rip) and do not want re-rip if I can help it - So is it simply just copying existing files from the NAS to a Core ? Would there be issues with metadata, file structure etc ?

2) Rarely buy CD's now and instead download from Qobuz and HDTracks - Can the Core be used to directly download to or will it still need to be done via PC and then copy to Core ? (And then have the same issues from question 1, should there be any?)

3) I'm assuming the Core cannot be used in any way to stream Qobuz as it is not a streamer (but I can keep the SBT for that purpose) - correct?

4) Does the Core (via the control app) bring system automation to the NAC202 and nDAC or is that just provided by NDX etc ?

5) Or am I barking up the wrong tree (or just barking mad...) and what i want is not going to be easily answered by a Core and i should hold out and see if Naim brings out new streamer/renderer products...?

Right now I am not looking at an NDX - I have had one on home demo several months ago and whilst it was clearly a better source, it was marginal and definitely not a big enough improvement to justify the replacement of the SBT. However, that was when it was with a Rega DAC and before the nDAC.

Or should question 6 be go the MacMini/Audirvana route as this will be storage/renderer/Qobuz download...? With assumption that difference in replay quality (if any...) between MM and Core is going to be nuanced rather than spectacular...?

 

(Current system is SBT with ability to replay up to 24/192; nDAC; NAC202/HICAPDR/NAPSC; NAP200(DR); SOnus Faber Toy Towers; NACa5 7m; Supra digital interconnect between SBT and nDAC; QNAP NAS) And before other options are suggested - dedicated mains not feasible; dedicated hi-if stand is planned anyway; will eventually change speakers but not right now as SWMBO seems to like the black leather  ; no plans to change amps for a couple of years. And if I can find a used 555ps (non-DR) for the nDAC I will get one...but these seem to be thin on the ground right now...

thanks in advance for feedback and thoughts.

I understand that the Core does not support Internet streaming services. I do not know which UPnP server and which renderer come pre-installed on the Core but I understand that MinimServer cannot be installed on it.

If you can accept the lack of support for Qobuz and the lack of options for UPnP server and renderer, I guess the Core could be a nice source for your nDAC.

I personally feel that these limitations are unacceptable and, for your objectives, I suggest trying a Raspberry Pi 3 running MinimServer and upmpdcli as a renderer. You will have to connect the Pi to your nDAC via a USB->SPDIF bridge. A Raspberry Pi 3 running MinimServer and upmpdcli under Raspbian is easy to set up and needs virtually no maintenance. With Linn Kazoo as control point, it provides, in my view, the best user experience.

You can setup a prototype system in about half an hour and with an investment of about 40 pounds: beside the Pi, you'll need a 16GB microSD card for the OS and a USB stick (you likely have a few around) to hold a minimal music collection for testing. You will have to borrow a USB->SPDIF interface to test the system as a source for the nDAC. Perhaps you already have around a portable USB->SPDIF interface (like for instance the Meridian Explorer) that you can connect to the nDAC via optical or electrical SPDIF.

If you like the system, you can fit the Pi and a 1TB PiDrive (or any internal SSD) in a small enclosure, see for instance http://wdlabs.wd.com/category/pidrive-enclosures/.

JF Lux posted:

Ok. Thanks all for the input. It does look like the Core is not for me right now.  Maybe it's time to bite the bullet and improve on the NAS/CAT cable/switch as the first step. 

What's the problem with your network cabling? Despite what you may have read on here about astonishingly expensive Ethernet cables, there's no reason why a NAS/streamer setup wouldn't work just fine on a regular Cat5e network.

I agree with Chris - tweaking around with ethernet cables and switches is very much the last step to do when everything else is working fine and sounding good and you want to tease that final ounce of performance out

S

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

I agree with Chris - tweaking around with ethernet cables and switches is very much the last step to do when everything else is working fine and sounding good and you want to tease that final ounce of performance out

S

I cannot disagree  Put it down to irrational hi-if paranoia  

JF Lux posted:

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

I agree with Chris - tweaking around with ethernet cables and switches is very much the last step to do when everything else is working fine and sounding good and you want to tease that final ounce of performance out

S

I cannot disagree  Put it down to irrational hi-if paranoia  

I think paranoia is too strong a word.
I certainly don't consider myself to be mentally unstable and I own and use several high-end Streaming Cables.

In my world upgrades are simple - if I can hear a positive difference that's an upgrade. I then try to decide if the difference is worth the money. If not - I skip it.
In case of Ethernet cables the answer was clearly positive - that is why I bought them.

Adam

Adam Zielinski posted:

JF Lux posted:

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

I agree with Chris - tweaking around with ethernet cables and switches is very much the last step to do when everything else is working fine and sounding good and you want to tease that final ounce of performance out

S

I cannot disagree  Put it down to irrational hi-if paranoia  

I think paranoia is too strong a word.
I certainly don't consider myself to be mentally unstable and I own and use several high-end Streaming Cables.

In my world upgrades are simple - if I can hear a positive difference that's an upgrade. I then try to decide if the difference is worth the money. If not - I skip it.
In case of Ethernet cables the answer was clearly positive - that is why I bought them.

Adam

 

I would still class these things as 'tweaks' though, not something you need to worry about when you first set up a streaming system.

Of course Chris - I would call them a nice cherry that sits on the cake's icing.

Worth a while but only when everything else has been optimised: NAS, switch, LAN cables, power supply to NAS etc. 

Adam Zielinski posted:

Of course Chris - I would call them a nice cherry that sits on the cake's icing.

Worth a while but only when everything else has been optimised: NAS, switch, LAN cables, power supply to NAS etc. 

True. But a very straighforward way of optimising NAS, switch, LAN cables and NAS power supply is to get rid of them altogether. Just run a UPnP server and a renderer on the same low power device and connect to the DAC V1 via USB or to the nDAC via USB->SPDIF bridge. In the latter case one can of course play around with different interfaces as they do have an impact on the SQ of the nDAC. But cable-wise a standard Supra USB cable and a Naim DC1 are just fine in my experience.

nbpf posted:

I understand that the Core does not support Internet streaming services. I do not know which UPnP server and which renderer come pre-installed on the Core but I understand that MinimServer cannot be installed on it.

 

Very simple concept here -- the Naim servers (including the Core) run Naim's server, renderer, and all other software you can just think of as Naim's.  (No, Naim coders did not start from scratch but such is irrelevant.)  They are not selling an "open platform" device where the user may cut and paste in software; they never have and are not now.  This should be the basis for discussing the Core.  If one wants user customization and freedom to install third-party software, do not buy a Naim server. If you are comfortable setting up a Raspberry Pi and maintaining it, do not buy a Core. 

Naim has several justifications. (1) You are paying for a device that sounds the way Naim want it to sound. (2) You are paying for a device that Naim intend to be relatively easy to operate and user-friendly for newcomers to the streaming world. They are not marketing a device aimed to satisfy the 'tinkerer' or IT professional who want flexibility.  (3) Naim's support organization supports these devices, and thus leaving them open to the installation of third-party software that could 'break' the Naim installation is not something they intend to support.  In exchange for Naim standing behind the device, the owner accepts a 'closed' environment.

For those for whom these justifications make sense, the Core will be a reasonable option.  For those who are interested in setting up a Raspberry Pi, these justifications will make no sense, nor will the Core.  I think you Brits call this "horses for courses??"

Bart posted:

nbpf posted:

I understand that the Core does not support Internet streaming services. I do not know which UPnP server and which renderer come pre-installed on the Core but I understand that MinimServer cannot be installed on it.

 

Very simple concept here -- the Naim servers (including the Core) run Naim's server, renderer, and all other software you can just think of as Naim's.  (No, Naim coders did not start from scratch but such is irrelevant.)  They are not selling an "open platform" device where the user may cut and paste in software; they never have and are not now.  This should be the basis for discussing the Core.  If one wants user customization and freedom to install third-party software, do not buy a Naim server. If you are comfortable setting up a Raspberry Pi and maintaining it, do not buy a Core. 

Naim has several justifications. (1) You are paying for a device that sounds the way Naim want it to sound. (2) You are paying for a device that Naim intend to be relatively easy to operate and user-friendly for newcomers to the streaming world. They are not marketing a device aimed to satisfy the 'tinkerer' or IT professional who want flexibility.  (3) Naim's support organization supports these devices, and thus leaving them open to the installation of third-party software that could 'break' the Naim installation is not something they intend to support.  In exchange for Naim standing behind the device, the owner accepts a 'closed' environment.

For those for whom these justifications make sense, the Core will be a reasonable option.  For those who are interested in setting up a Raspberry Pi, these justifications will make no sense, nor will the Core.  I think you Brits call this "horses for courses??"

And there is another approach - the one I took.  When I started in 2012, I had no interest or aptitude to set up a home server myself.  The Naim server (UnitiServe) got my cd's ripped and got me started in a brave new world of home music networking.  As time went on, I had to learn about metadata, about getting a nas so I could backup the UnitiServe, and generally more about music servers.  Once I owned a nas that was doing my backups, I experimented with running its UPnP server.  Then I experimented with installing third-party software on my nas, including MinimServer.  I was learning and getting more comfortable with this "stuff."  After a few years, I had "outgrown" the need for the simplicity of the Naim server, and sold it off in favor of a QNAP nas.  I did not need the simplicity, and I was not convinced that the uServe sounded better (or even meaningfully different) as a UPnP server.  

Now it's 2017.  Perhaps this year I will play with a Raspberry Pi. It's never too late to learn something new.

Bart posted:

nbpf posted:

I understand that the Core does not support Internet streaming services. I do not know which UPnP server and which renderer come pre-installed on the Core but I understand that MinimServer cannot be installed on it.

 

Very simple concept here -- the Naim servers (including the Core) run Naim's server, renderer, and all other software you can just think of as Naim's.  (No, Naim coders did not start from scratch but such is irrelevant.)  They are not selling an "open platform" device where the user may cut and paste in software; they never have and are not now.  This should be the basis for discussing the Core.  If one wants user customization and freedom to install third-party software, do not buy a Naim server. If you are comfortable setting up a Raspberry Pi and maintaining it, do not buy a Core. 

Naim has several justifications. (1) You are paying for a device that sounds the way Naim want it to sound. (2) You are paying for a device that Naim intend to be relatively easy to operate and user-friendly for newcomers to the streaming world. They are not marketing a device aimed to satisfy the 'tinkerer' or IT professional who want flexibility.  (3) Naim's support organization supports these devices, and thus leaving them open to the installation of third-party software that could 'break' the Naim installation is not something they intend to support.  In exchange for Naim standing behind the device, the owner accepts a 'closed' environment.

For those for whom these justifications make sense, the Core will be a reasonable option.  For those who are interested in setting up a Raspberry Pi, these justifications will make no sense, nor will the Core.  I think you Brits call this "horses for courses??"

Right. As I mentioned in my original post, if the OP can accept the lack of support for Qobuz and the lack of options for UPnP server and renderer, the Core could possibly be a nice source for his nDAC.

nbpf posted:

Adam Zielinski posted:

Of course Chris - I would call them a nice cherry that sits on the cake's icing.

Worth a while but only when everything else has been optimised: NAS, switch, LAN cables, power supply to NAS etc. 

True. But a very straighforward way of optimising NAS, switch, LAN cables and NAS power supply is to get rid of them altogether. Just run a UPnP server and a renderer on the same low power device and connect to the DAC V1 via USB or to the nDAC via USB->SPDIF bridge. In the latter case one can of course play around with different interfaces as they do have an impact on the SQ of the nDAC. But cable-wise a standard Supra USB cable and a Naim DC1 are just fine in my experience.

Well - yes and no. 

You assume in your exampke only one music system with a streaming capability. 

Many forum users have a full grown home network, with at least 2 streaming units. In my case there are 4 streamers involved - so LAN is the only solution at this point in time. 

Bart posted:

Bart posted:

nbpf posted:

...

...

...

Now it's 2017.  Perhaps this year I will play with a Raspberry Pi. It's never too late to learn something new.

Bart, setting up a Raspberry Pi for running MinimServer is a true pleasure. The MinimServer documentation is very terse and precise! You read it and feel that the developer has put a lot of care in anticipating the users' thoughts and problems and writing the doc. A refreshing experience! Installing upmpdcli and mpd (upmpdcli relies on mpd) requires a little bit more attention but is also quite well documented. I have installed two systems over Christmas, one with a 500GB mSATA card as a mobile system. If you are interested in playing around with a Pi, I can send you pointers to the essential links. I suggest you use a Pi 3 since it comes with a wireless card and delivers enough current to the USB ports to power external SSDs. I also suggest that you install the system on a samll, 16GB microSD card. Later, you will be able to make an complete image of the system in a few minutes, e.g. for backup purposes or for duplicating your setup on another Pi. The Pi can be setup remotely: you do not need to buy and fiddle around with keyboard, mouse and monitor. I have configured the mobile Pi as an access point. This allows me to control replay with a phone on the go. With 3 free USB ports (one is needed for the mSATA drive) and one Ethernet port, it is a very small and flexible system.You can attach it to a LAN switch or router to provide streaming services over a LAN. Or you stream wirelessly to mobile devices no matter where you are. Or you connect the Pi directly to a USB DAC. A small battery pack should be enough to drive the Pi and a portable DAC for a few hours. I have tried it with a Meridian Explorer and it sounds good. But with a Hugo or with a Mojo it should be even better. Since I have started using MinimServer, I cannot imagine going back to systems that do not support user-specific indexes. MinimServer allows me to browse my music collection according to the criteria that matter to me and not to those that matter to the non-existent average user! Since Dec. 2016, MinimServer makes my CD booklets available to control points. This is a very nice feature and one more reason not to go back to more primitive applications. Best, nbpf  

Adam Zielinski posted:

nbpf posted:

Adam Zielinski posted:

Of course Chris - I would call them a nice cherry that sits on the cake's icing.

Worth a while but only when everything else has been optimised: NAS, switch, LAN cables, power supply to NAS etc. 

True. But a very straighforward way of optimising NAS, switch, LAN cables and NAS power supply is to get rid of them altogether. Just run a UPnP server and a renderer on the same low power device and connect to the DAC V1 via USB or to the nDAC via USB->SPDIF bridge. In the latter case one can of course play around with different interfaces as they do have an impact on the SQ of the nDAC. But cable-wise a standard Supra USB cable and a Naim DC1 are just fine in my experience.

Well - yes and no. 

You assume in your exampke only one music system with a streaming capability. 

Many forum users have a full grown home network, with at least 2 streaming units. In my case there are 4 streamers involved - so LAN is the only solution at this point in time. 

+1 -- there is a reason some of us don't condider a usb-to-dac connection -- we have multiple music systems we want to drive off the same library.  Yes, I could get "fancy" and buy an expensive "box" that does both (Melco; Uniti Core; others) and have my NDS do a direct connection, and my Qute2 do a networked/UPnP connection, but such is not the way I want to go.

Adam Zielinski posted:

nbpf posted:

Adam Zielinski posted:

Of course Chris - I would call them a nice cherry that sits on the cake's icing.

Worth a while but only when everything else has been optimised: NAS, switch, LAN cables, power supply to NAS etc. 

True. But a very straighforward way of optimising NAS, switch, LAN cables and NAS power supply is to get rid of them altogether. Just run a UPnP server and a renderer on the same low power device and connect to the DAC V1 via USB or to the nDAC via USB->SPDIF bridge. In the latter case one can of course play around with different interfaces as they do have an impact on the SQ of the nDAC. But cable-wise a standard Supra USB cable and a Naim DC1 are just fine in my experience.

...

You assume in your exampke only one music system with a streaming capability. 

...

No, I am just trying to address the specific goal pointed out by the OP:

"My immediate objective is to improve on my source (Squeezebox Touch with EDO hi-res plug-in) and limit connection points from current NAS and basically "isolate" music files from NAS/home network. Thought process is to have music playing from storage direct to system without going through switches, cable runs etc (existing wired network is not with best CAT Ethernet cables and re-cabling would be quite some effort. Also thinking this will reduce SMPS in the circuit). The NAS will then be removed from the hi-if system but will be used as file back-up.".

Also, notice that having a UPnP server and a renderer running on the same low-power device still means having a UPnP server running. If, beside driving a DAC, you also want to provide services for LAN streamers, you just connect the low-power device to a switch or to a router: what can do more can also do less!

nbpf posted:

Adam Zielinski posted:

Of course Chris - I would call them a nice cherry that sits on the cake's icing.

Worth a while but only when everything else has been optimised: NAS, switch, LAN cables, power supply to NAS etc. 

True. But a very straighforward way of optimising NAS, switch, LAN cables and NAS power supply is to get rid of them altogether. Just run a UPnP server and a renderer on the same low power device and connect to the DAC V1 via USB or to the nDAC via USB->SPDIF bridge. In the latter case one can of course play around with different interfaces as they do have an impact on the SQ of the nDAC. But cable-wise a standard Supra USB cable and a Naim DC1 are just fine in my experience.

I'm not entirely convinced that there's an advantage in replacing one system with another, hypothetically less flawed one, and many are going to want a network connection in any case, even without web streaming. Unless, that is, you can live without music downloads, iRadio, firmware updates, metadata retrieval etc.

ChrisSU posted:

nbpf posted:

Adam Zielinski posted:

Of course Chris - I would call them a nice cherry that sits on the cake's icing.

Worth a while but only when everything else has been optimised: NAS, switch, LAN cables, power supply to NAS etc. 

True. But a very straighforward way of optimising NAS, switch, LAN cables and NAS power supply is to get rid of them altogether. Just run a UPnP server and a renderer on the same low power device and connect to the DAC V1 via USB or to the nDAC via USB->SPDIF bridge. In the latter case one can of course play around with different interfaces as they do have an impact on the SQ of the nDAC. But cable-wise a standard Supra USB cable and a Naim DC1 are just fine in my experience.

I'm not entirely convinced that there's an advantage in replacing one system with another, hypothetically less flawed one, and many are going to want a network connection in any case, even without web streaming. Unless, that is, you can live without music downloads, iRadio, firmware updates, metadata retrieval etc.

Runnig a UPnP server and a renderer on the same device is a complement, not an alternative to a standard setup: just think of a Core with a more flexible software and internet streaming services. A device running a UPnP server and a renderer can be networked, both via cables and wirelessly. You can have internet radio, TIDAL, QOBUZ, firmware updates, etc. It is just that such device does not need to be wired to work properly when USB streaming to a DAC. This seems to be one of the goals that the OP would like to achieve

"Thought process is to have music playing from storage direct to system without going through switches, cable runs etc"

but, of course, I might have misunderstood his aims.

NBPF - I wouldn't say you have misunderstood the original questions. But I do need to think again as to how to approach this