when is Naim going to update streamers for MQA?

Am I missing something? What exactly does MQA achieve? Yes, it can stream high res data in half or quarter of the bandwidth - but it will only make a difference for those whose internet connection is borderline: i.e. where the 2.3Mbps of the 24/96 can get through without any interruption but 4.6 can't. For anyone with lower or higher rate connection either MQA won't stream or uncompressed high res would.

Meanwhile i don't believe that the people listening with earbuds on phones, which I suspect is a high proportion of the masses that stream, would notice or care about the difference in sound quality between MQA and MP3, so MQA is hardly set to become mainstream.

Bill Allen posted:

Speaking of dealing with, I just found out there is no phono input on any of the new Naim Uniti components.

While they all offer an analog to digital converter to stream on your network. No MQA, no Phono input ... humm ... what exactly are they going to unify.

Pessimism

is that true? I've only been looking at the Core, which I didn't think did unless its been added, but maybe the Atom & Nova? Is there some digital processing reason for it, rather than passing the analogue direct into the amp stages?

Screw MQA, integrate Roon.

+1000��

Bill Allen posted:

Speaking of dealing with, I just found out there is no phono input on any of the new Naim Uniti components.

While they all offer an analog to digital converter to stream on your network. No MQA, no Phono input ... humm ... what exactly are they going to unify.

Pessimism

Really? The Nova has 2x DIN / 2x phono inputs into its preamp... the Star has phono and a single DIN input... where are you getting your info from?

im much more interested in Roon and also IFTTT than MQA

highresaudio dropped MQA out of their catalog: they say MQA is not lossless

https://www.sempre-audio.at/HI...aten_ein.id.5543.htm

T38.45 posted:

highresaudio dropped MQA out of their catalog: they say MQA is not lossless 

I'm surprised it took HRA so long to realise,   they don't have a streaming service (e.g. like Qobuz) so what the point for them having MQA.   

Bill Allen posted:

With HiRes "becoming" mainstream, MP3 is dead as dead, there's simply no money left to extract from this format. HiRes is the 4K of the Music Industry ... MQA is simply the first vehicle.

As someone who works in the music industry (and whose partner works in the home entertainment/video/dvd/call it what you will industry) I would say that the observation that  "HiRes is the 4K of the Music Industry" is fairly accurate in that the vast majority of people care about neither.  HiRes is far from mainstream, with the vast majority of consumers opting for convenience and price.  Think of a triangle with FAST, CHEAP, GOOD at each point, now pick two (you can't have all three).  I would suggest that the vast majority of consumers pick the first two and, unless something happens to radically change the paradigm, this will continue to be the case.  Cue questions from friends and colleagues "Why do you pay extra for Tidal Premium?  Spotify etc is awesome!"    Spotify is THE dominant streaming service, they stream a lossy format and, considering the current growth trends of the major streaming services (and yes i'm talking real growth), there is a still lot of scope for growth in this area.  The suggestion that there us "no money left to extract from this format" is well wide of the mark.  

Regretfully continuing the analogy:

MP3 is more the equivalent to TV/480i Video. The masses where happy with that too, ask them "now" to go back and watch their Tube TV ... I think not! 

From that vantage point, HiRes audio is more the equivalent to HDTV (HiDef ... hell it even sounds the same)

We all got a first hand seat on how the HDTV transition took place, with early adopters suffering through the upscaling effects of 480i video feed for years. Go back in your hot tub time machine to 1995 an ask "anyone" if they want to continue watching blurry TV and they would look at you real stupid. Go forward 15 years from today and same will be true with MP3's. 

The Big 3 record company's who own 70% of the worlds recorded music have "finally" decided to convert their back catalog to HiRes audio. When the transition to HiRes is complete, nobody and I mean nobody will shed a tear for MP3 or even remember it existed.  MP3 will be dead as dead, but yes, don't hold your breath waiting for this to happen. 

Trying not to get trapped in analogical semantics ... my argument is the the transition to HiRes audio will be very similar. 

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Bill Allen posted:

Speaking of dealing with, I just found out there is no phono input on any of the new Naim Uniti components.

While they all offer an analog to digital converter to stream on your network. No MQA, no Phono input ... humm ... what exactly are they going to unify.

Pessimism

Really? The Nova has 2x DIN / 2x phono inputs into its preamp... the Star has phono and a single DIN input... where are you getting your info from?

Two extra analog inputs are one thing, a built in Phono equalizer is another. I asked this question point black at both RMAF 2016 and CES 2017 and I was told there are no Phono EQ's built into the Uniti products. 

IMO a product called Uniti should bridge past, present, and future formats.

mackb3 posted:

Screw MQA, integrate Roon.

Screw nothing, I want it all.  Roon, MQA, & built in Phono EQ.

why would it have phono eq when there is a range of phono eq boxes available from naim?

Bill Allen posted:

Regretfully continuing the analogy:

MP3 is more the equivalent to TV/480i Video. The masses where happy with that too, ask them "now" to go back and watch their Tube TV ... I think not! 

From that vantage point, HiRes audio is more the equivalent to HDTV (HiDef ... hell it even sounds the same)

We all got a first hand seat on how the HDTV transition took place, with early adopters suffering through the upscaling effects of 480i video feed for years. Go back in your hot tub time machine to 1995 an ask "anyone" if they want to continue watching blurry TV and they would look at you real stupid. Go forward 15 years from today and same will be true with MP3's. 

The Big 3 record company's who own 70% of the worlds recorded music have "finally" decided to convert their back catalog to HiRes audio. When the transition to HiRes is complete, nobody and I mean nobody will shed a tear for MP3 or even remember it existed.  MP3 will be dead as dead, but yes, don't hold your breath waiting for this to happen. 

Trying not to get trapped in analogical semantics ... my argument is the the transition to HiRes audio will be very similar. 

 

I don't think the debate was so much about whether we nutters, or your average music consumer, want HiDef, and where that might be in the future, but more that we have HiDef already, so what is MQA for?  I am sure that if in 15 years time Spotify has everything available in studio master quality for £6 a month, its users won't be saying 'screw that, we want to keep our MP3s', that would not make sense.  Its the unwillingness amoung of the majority of music listeners to pay the premium that is there currently, which says to me it is a long from being mainstream right now.  Many many music lovers won't even pay premium for CD quality over MP3 currently, so HiRes seems unlikely to become mainstream until services like Spotify make it the affordable standard, and in 15 years time it probably will be.

jon honeyball posted:

why would it have phono eq when there is a range of phono eq boxes available from naim?

Quite - I am intrigued by this Phono EQ - I assume Bill is referring to a phono (graph) preamp with RIAA equalisation. As far as I am aware Naim preamps haven't contained these for many many years - and one can indeed now use the Naim phono stage if one requires this  - and I see no reason why one couldn't use that with the Uniti series if you wanted - albeit you might need a separate PSU for it.

These are all decisions a manufacture like Naim has to take into consideration.

My retail customer's will ultimately vote with their pocket book. None that I talked to so far want the complexity of add on boxes to their upcoming all-in-one device purchase.  My decision on what lines to carry hinge on anticipating my customer needs.  While I have no problem selling them an extra set of cables and phono amp, the problem is I have to "sell them" on this. 

At home my wife has integrated our MuSo into her daily life as a HDTV speaker (via fiberoptic) and Tidal steamer for music. She rarely plays music from our NAS anymore. This little device has not only changed her perspective but also mine on the future of audio interaction.  However she now wanted to play her LP collection (both new & old).  So I bought her a Sony turntable with built in phono amp and plugged it directly into the analog input on the MuSo. Done!

While the new Uniti line offers a way to tie in my hi-end stereo system to the MuSo and whole house network, there is no easy path to hook up my tube phono amp.  Even I don't want to purchase an additional phono amp for the rare times I would steam analog from this location. Without a MQA solution we are talking yet another add on box or worse ... computer audio. This potential complexity is already irritating me, just image the scenario's my customer's will bring to the integration of limited all-in-one devices. 

I don't know much about all this but all I want is well recorded music to play on my Gyro or NDS. I don't want it meddled with, just a high quality recording from a studio. It's not much to ask for and it's all getting complicated in my opinion. 

I trust Naim to do what's best with their products, if they don't adopt this MQA thing or whatever it is that's fine by me, it will be for a good reason.

Bill Allen posted:

Regretfully continuing the analogy:

MP3 is more the equivalent to TV/480i Video. The masses where happy with that too, ask them "now" to go back and watch their Tube TV ... I think not! 

From that vantage point, HiRes audio is more the equivalent to HDTV (HiDef ... hell it even sounds the same)

We all got a first hand seat on how the HDTV transition took place, with early adopters suffering through the upscaling effects of 480i video feed for years. Go back in your hot tub time machine to 1995 an ask "anyone" if they want to continue watching blurry TV and they would look at you real stupid. Go forward 15 years from today and same will be true with MP3's. 

The Big 3 record company's who own 70% of the worlds recorded music have "finally" decided to convert their back catalog to HiRes audio. When the transition to HiRes is complete, nobody and I mean nobody will shed a tear for MP3 or even remember it existed.  MP3 will be dead as dead, but yes, don't hold your breath waiting for this to happen. 

Trying not to get trapped in analogical semantics ... my argument is the the transition to HiRes audio will be very similar. 

 

OK, let's leave the analogy out of it.  The assertion that "MP3 is dead as dead, there's simply no money left to extract from this format" is inaccurate.  There is still a lot of life left in this format.  Where are live there is only one Hi-Fi streaming service and their market penetrationis minute.  I would suggest that a similar situation exists in most countries around the world.

Also, just to clarify, it was never the record companies decision that MP3 be the default format, this was the choice of the likes of Apple, Spotify, etc.  In fact they are supplied full 16/44 audio masters.

The transition to HiRes audio may well be similar but considering, most markets are still transitioning to streaming I would suggest that it still has a long, long way to go.  I also know from my partner that even though both are declining formats, DVD still outsells Blu-Ray by a considerable margin. 

As a side note, many of my younger colleagues don't own a TV in the traditional sense with the usual add ons - Sky Box, Blu-Ray Player, DVD, player etc.  They own a lap top and a Netflix account, that's it. 

King Size posted:

Bill Allen posted:

Regretfully continuing the analogy:

MP3 is more the equivalent to TV/480i Video. The masses where happy with that too, ask them "now" to go back and watch their Tube TV ... I think not! 

From that vantage point, HiRes audio is more the equivalent to HDTV (HiDef ... hell it even sounds the same)

We all got a first hand seat on how the HDTV transition took place, with early adopters suffering through the upscaling effects of 480i video feed for years. Go back in your hot tub time machine to 1995 an ask "anyone" if they want to continue watching blurry TV and they would look at you real stupid. Go forward 15 years from today and same will be true with MP3's. 

The Big 3 record company's who own 70% of the worlds recorded music have "finally" decided to convert their back catalog to HiRes audio. When the transition to HiRes is complete, nobody and I mean nobody will shed a tear for MP3 or even remember it existed.  MP3 will be dead as dead, but yes, don't hold your breath waiting for this to happen. 

Trying not to get trapped in analogical semantics ... my argument is the the transition to HiRes audio will be very similar. 

 

OK, let's leave the analogy out of it.  The assertion that "MP3 is dead as dead, there's simply no money left to extract from this format" is inaccurate.  There is still a lot of life left in this format.  Where are live there is only one Hi-Fi streaming service and their market penetrationis minute.  I would suggest that a similar situation exists in most countries around the world.

Also, just to clarify, it was never the record companies decision that MP3 be the default format, this was the choice of the likes of Apple, Spotify, etc.  In fact they are supplied full 16/44 audio masters.

The transition to HiRes audio may well be similar but considering, most markets are still transitioning to streaming I would suggest that it still has a long, long way to go.  I also know from my partner that even though both are declining formats, DVD still outsells Blu-Ray by a considerable margin. 

As a side note, many of my younger colleagues don't own a TV in the traditional sense with the usual add ons - Sky Box, Blu-Ray Player, DVD, player etc.  They own a lap top and a Netflix account, that's it. 

Touche

I know it's a technicality but Spotify does NOT use MP3 because of apparently licensing costs, they instead use the Ogg Vorbis codec and container which is open source  and licence free and apparently better suited to streaming.. though I am not quite sure why... and of course despite this and being worlds largest streamer are yet to make a penny in profit...

Bill Allen posted:

...Without a MQA solution we are talking yet another add on box or worse ... computer audio. This potential complexity is already irritating me, just image the scenario's my customer's will bring to the integration of limited all-in-one devices. 

What line of business are you in?  None of my customers give a cr@p about MQA.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

I know it's a technicality but Spotify does NOT use MP3 because of apparently licensing costs, they instead use the Ogg Vorbis codec and container which is open source  and licence free and apparently better suited to streaming.. though I am not quite sure why... and of course despite this and being worlds largest streamer are yet to make a penny in profit...

Simon thanks for the correction.  I am aware of this, hence referred to them using a lossy format earlier in the thread.  Was just trying to keep it simple, and for many MP3 has become synonymous with lossy formats (and I took at as being used in that way in this thread), much like Hoover was with vacuum cleaners. 

I can't see naim rushing MQA integration into their products.  This is not to say it won't happen but that much like Rega with CD Players, they seem happy to wait and make a considered move rather than diving in head first.

Bill Allen posted:

These are all decisions a manufacture like Naim has to take into consideration.

My retail customer's will ultimately vote with their pocket book. None that I talked to so far want the complexity of add on boxes to their upcoming all-in-one device purchase.  My decision on what lines to carry hinge on anticipating my customer needs.  While I have no problem selling them an extra set of cables and phono amp, the problem is I have to "sell them" on this. 

At home my wife has integrated our MuSo into her daily life as a HDTV speaker (via fiberoptic) and Tidal steamer for music. She rarely plays music from our NAS anymore. This little device has not only changed her perspective but also mine on the future of audio interaction.  However she now wanted to play her LP collection (both new & old).  So I bought her a Sony turntable with built in phono amp and plugged it directly into the analog input on the MuSo. Done!

While the new Uniti line offers a way to tie in my hi-end stereo system to the MuSo and whole house network, there is no easy path to hook up my tube phono amp.  Even I don't want to purchase an additional phono amp for the rare times I would steam analog from this location. Without a MQA solution we are talking yet another add on box or worse ... computer audio. This potential complexity is already irritating me, just image the scenario's my customer's will bring to the integration of limited all-in-one devices. 

Leaving aside debate over the potential sound quality of computer's as sources, I fundamentally fail to see what MQA has to do with any of this? MQA is simply an attempt to allow online streaming at lower bandwidth for the streaming supplier. No more, no less, except for the small proportion of people interested in online streaming of hi res living with borderline internet connection bandwidth and happy with the artefacts of MQA. Ourptside those in that borderline group everyone can download high res if they want, and online stream from suppliers like Qobuz and Highresaudi if they want.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

ChrisSU posted:

To suggest that Hi Res is mainstream is just ludicrous. MP3 and AAC are mainstream, CD is for crusties, lossless streaming is off most people's radar, and Hi Res is from another planet as far as most people are concerned. 

Albeit FLAC downloads are certainly slowly creeping into mainstream, especially for younger music enthusiasts... who know that AAC and MP3 is not the be all and end all (which I find really encouraging) 

I've not experienced very much enthusiasm for lossless audio amongst youngsters myself, but I hope you're right! After all, they should really have good enough hearing to appreciate it, unlike some of us... 

Bill Allen posted:

These are all decisions a manufacture like Naim has to take into consideration.

My retail customer's will ultimately vote with their pocket book. None that I talked to so far want the complexity of add on boxes to their upcoming all-in-one device purchase.  My decision on what lines to carry hinge on anticipating my customer needs.  While I have no problem selling them an extra set of cables and phono amp, the problem is I have to "sell them" on this. 

At home my wife has integrated our MuSo into her daily life as a HDTV speaker (via fiberoptic) and Tidal steamer for music. She rarely plays music from our NAS anymore. This little device has not only changed her perspective but also mine on the future of audio interaction.  However she now wanted to play her LP collection (both new & old).  So I bought her a Sony turntable with built in phono amp and plugged it directly into the analog input on the MuSo. Done!

While the new Uniti line offers a way to tie in my hi-end stereo system to the MuSo and whole house network, there is no easy path to hook up my tube phono amp.  Even I don't want to purchase an additional phono amp for the rare times I would steam analog from this location. Without a MQA solution we are talking yet another add on box or worse ... computer audio. This potential complexity is already irritating me, just image the scenario's my customer's will bring to the integration of limited all-in-one devices. 

 Bill-

If you are a member of the trade then it needs to be clearly disclosed in your profile and you need to ask Richard Dane (moderator) for a trade banner on your name.

Moderated Post:  Mark, I have conversed with Bill and I'm happy with his current member status.  Note that only official Naim dealers have Trade Member status on here.