Deep Cryo Treatment

Happy new year Arun.  

Regards,

Lindsay

Some further reading here:

https://forums.naimaudio.com/to...bles-benefits-or-not

Arun- new snaic ?

david

Hi Arun,

wrote this on another forum topic last december:

Having an 552 DR and a 500 running on Magico S5, last summer I decided to DR the 500. Enjoyed the original very much but of course with all the raving reviews I just went for it. Turned out I was quite unhappy with the result. Lots of realism, bass, transparency, etc but lacking the flow and the ease. Hence the joy. Missed immediately the 500. Missed the seduction.

 Running in become an obsession. Was able to play the amplifiers a full month full time at nine o clock. That is loud!! Amps even become hot. Definitely better but still not the results like I read on the forums and reviews. Changing the interlinks to AQ Well and got some fine results but were was the speed and emotion? November, 4 months after surgery, maybe a bit better but still not a release of the brakes. Having it checked by the distributor who concluded everything was fine, left me with the unfortunate decision to change the amp asap... So the search began.

 However last week I cryogened the naim cabling, so the Snaic and the Burndy. Conductivity of the cables should go up with 15 to 20%. Two days of warming up again and yesterday the first critical listening; spectacular!!! The feeling was if the 500 was freed up, had the speed and was not holding back like before. It really sounded so nice, sweet, involving and tempting. Really happy again.

My thoughts: the DR electronics are great but the Snaic and Burndy cabling are less so. This is probably the weak spot in the total 552 DR- 500 DR setup

This confirms your own experiences. Did my Naim NAC A5, power cables and AQ Wells also. Spectacular!!

Erice - can I ask how much it cost for someone to do this to your own cables? Whom did you use?

I am too interested in how much this treatment would set me back.  I only have 10m of naca5.

It is no secret that AV Options uses Cryogenics International in Scottsdale, AZ. Arun used a Toronto based lab that also did the 36-hour treatment. I believe it cost him around $180 Cdn to treat all interconnects, Snaics, Burndy's, power cables, speaker wires and fuses, but I am sure he can provide more details. This isn't an instant gratification tweak...you have to strip the system down, send it off and wait for around a week to get the parts back-and then have to reinstall them and allow for further warm up. But the benefits obviously outweigh the trivial expense and not-so-trivial inconvenience. Think about it...you can spend the same amount to get a single audiophile mains fuse-which has probably been cryo treated too. Not for the faint of heart, but very appealing to the feeble-in-pocket users. 

My own interest is not whether there are perceived sonic benefits to the deep-cryo process, these seem rather accepted. The greater question for me has to do with the longevity of the benefits. Given that cryo is a relatively new process, I suppose the jury is still out. Is there a point down the road that the cryo'd cables revert to their non-cryo'd state? Is this a matter of years, or is the cryo result a permanent condition?

From my perspective, before I Cryogened any of my completed/assembled cables like Burndys, Snaics, Hilines etc, I would want assurance from Naim it was safe to do so. Interesting research from NASA on this from the early 70s on cooling plastics such as PTFE towards to cryogenic temperatures. They found extreme cooling puts a strain on many plastics  as they change due to the temperature change, and they are more likely to form hairline cracks rather than deform thereby  reducing their life before failure... there are plastics that are more robust to severe cooling, but I doubt these are used in our interconnects, but Naim should know. Either way I would have thought it would negatively effect  any resale value as effectively you will have significantly aged many plastics.

i also understand different metal/alloys respond differently. Brass subjectively provides the best benefit, copper marginal benefit and silver can actually deteriorate its performance.

For me effective Crogenics would be on the appropriate metal/alloy before being assembled into a finished cable product.

Simon

Cryogen is widely used in US and the technology is now moving to Europe Cable manufactures like Shunyata use it. (Alpha cryogenic process, http://www.shunyata.com/images.../sigma_broch_FIN.pdf) 

I used www.cooltech-international.com Cost for 30 meter cable were in total €900. Nothing cracked, I only took the batteries out of the AudioQuest cables. They told me the benefits for copper and silver are know and proven. I can only agree after listening to the results. 

I did some work on supercooling a while back & whilst it does bring permanent thermal conductivity changes in copper,  & yes it does bring dramatic resistance changes whilst in temperatures lower than 70K  (-200'C),  these changes revert to normal at ambient.  OK if your ears tell you it sounds better, & you have the money to try it,  fine, go with it.  

And to Simons point,  I've seen what -200'c (& lower) can do to some plastics,  & no I'm not dipping my plastic. 

EricE posted:

Cryogen is widely used in US and the technology is now moving to Europe Cable manufactures like Shunyata use it. (Alpha cryogenic process, http://www.shunyata.com/images.../sigma_broch_FIN.pdf) 

I used www.cooltech-international.com Cost for 30 meter cable were in total €900. Nothing cracked, I only took the batteries out of the AudioQuest cables. They told me the benefits for copper and silver are know and proven. I can only agree after listening to the results. 

 

Well i guess if you have used a microscope or large magnifier looking for hairline cracks and there are non.. especially near metal/plastic boundaries then you are fine.. but if you do ever sell please do the responsible thing and advise any potential purchaser what you have done to the finished cable assembleys before they buy.

Mike-B posted:

I did some work on supercooling a while back & whilst it does bring permanent thermal conductivity changes in copper,  & yes it does bring dramatic resistance changes whilst in temperatures lower than 70K  (-200'C),  these changes revert to normal at ambient.  OK if your ears tell you it sounds better, & you have the money to try it,  fine, go with it.  

And to Simons point,  I've seen what -200'c (& lower) can do to some plastics,  & no I'm not dipping my plastic. 

This all fits with my understanding.

Regarding plastics, changes may not necessarily be visible even microscopically unless you know exactly what you are looking for, while there is even a risk of disintegration.

As for any audible effect, it is likely to depend on factors like the resistance of the cable (inversely proportional to conductor cross sectional area), and also very possibly the thickness of individual conductors in stranded cable. 

There  is a also a question as to whether the crystalline structure of copper reverts over time at normal ambient temperatures, and if so over what timescale. (I haven't looked to see if this may have been researched and be known)

Re:  .......  a question as to whether the crystalline structure of copper reverts over time at normal ambient temperatures, and if so over what timescale.

I don't have answers on that,  I'm sure some papers somewhere on www.  My work was with materials when at very low temperatures.     From what I read, the audio cryo treatment is done @ -185'C,  thats is not considered low in my old work as its simply liquid nitrogen & its only at the margins of temperatures where these claimed changes begin to happen.

What is needed of course is a cryostat store in our homes, with cables running through heavily insulated pipes containing liquid helium: that would be true deep cryo treatment: superconducting cables with no resistance! 

Innocent Bystander posted:

This all fits with my understanding.

Regarding plastics, changes may not necessarily be visible even microscopically unless you know exactly what you are looking for, while there is even a risk of disintegration.

 

Fair enough, so to my simple mind, all the more potentially an issue...

I admit to some skepticism about permanent and very large changes to wire resistance ("conductivity increased by 10 to 20%") as a result of thermal cycling to cryogenic temperatures - I can't see how this would happen... so perhaps I'm missing something.  

In my experience doing precision metrological temperature work - where the reference thermometers are constructed from platinum wire and exploit the highly reproducible resistance versus temperature behaviour of the metal, and where heaters for adiabatic cryostats are wound from higher resistivity alloys - the exact opposite of this idea is relied upon: the resistance returns to its previous  value once the temperature cycle is complete. Indeed, for standard platinum resistance thermometers, you calibrate using the resistance ratio, dividing the resistance at temperature by the resistance at the triple point of water (273.16 K or 0.01 C) exactly because you expect the resistance at a given temperature to be constant and reproducible... The lowest useful temperature for Pt sensors (before the sensitivity drops away completely) is around 13 K, the triple point of hydrogen, at which point the Pt resistance has dropped the be about 1000 times lower than its value at room temperature, so there is quite a dynamic range. The reproducibility is extremely good, if you're careful: better than parts per million.

Cryogenic annealing (and high temperature annealing) is something real, especially for those interested in crystal structure and grain sizes, but I don't think that the physics of cooling and re-warming a simple wire leads to large and permanent resistance changes as I understand things are being described here. I'd be curious to hear a little more about what is being done... Especially as people hear clear differences as a result of the process.

Also agree with others that just crash cooling an assembly of insulated wires and connectors will create unknown and possibly large stresses in the materials...care to avoid any movement is required, but again it is not guaranteed that you will crack a plastic just by cooling and warming, although doing it too quickly or with any mechanical motion certainly increases your chances of failure. 

Regards alan

I do trust Chris West on this. I replaced 2 Tibia cords with Deep-Cryo AC cables and to my ears it does make a difference. 

For the record, all Snaics that AV Options sell are cryo-treated, even if not explicitly stated, and at no additional cost. They also recommended that the Burndy cables get cryo too. even if done independent of them. I too would be very conservative subjecting the already-fragile Hiline to such treatments unless this has been already done without mishap. AVO are definitely non-tweaky guys when it comes to non-empirical applications, and if they do ancillary things like using z-foil resistors, or cryo treatment it is not because it is fashionable to do so-there would also have be  genuine sonic benefits. We may not understand exactly WHY it works-but then again...how many of us REALLY understands even how a transistor works (hint....quantum mechanics is needed) -and yet we have no problem employing them with gay abandon. 

If any of you are tempted to find a source to do a package of all your removable conducting hardware-don't forget the chassis (and in the UK the in-plug) fuses too. And while you are at it, toss another circuit breaker from the fusebox in the cryo. 

Ron Toolsie posted:

 We may not understand exactly WHY it works-but then again...how many of us REALLY understands even how a transistor works (hint....quantum mechanics is needed) -

Isn't quantum mechanics behind most things in our physical world - its just we have a complete portfolio of simplified models that were largely developed before quantum mechanics were understood? There is also one thing designing from absolute first principles - which I guess none really does - and designing from established models/patterns which is what we all tend to do.. - I remember designing a digital calculator from first principles in lab at Uni as an undergraduate  - albeit we had certain basic logic and shift register / flip flop chips to work with -  it was a real challenge as well as fascinating... but at least there was a known and established methodology behind it with a known and non subjective outcome.

I guess my point here is the actual established design models/patters for cryogenic treatment in terms of sound quality are a bit thin on the ground...... and that doesn't mean a don't admit there are sonic differences - its just I am always wary of cause and effect if the reason why is not understood.

S

Ron Toolsie posted:

This isn't an instant gratification tweak...you have to strip the system down, send it off and wait for around a week to get the parts back-and then have to reinstall them and allow for further warm up. 

Surely such a big refit of the system could be causing the perceived change? People obsess about their fraim setup, cable dressing, the repeated plugging/unplugging of cables etc. How do we know that the cryo process in the middle of all of this system tweaking is actually doing something at all?

<settles down into the Forum Sofa, makes fresh popcorn>

alan33 posted:

I admit to some skepticism about permanent and very large changes to wire resistance ("conductivity increased by 10 to 20%") as a result of thermal cycling to cryogenic temperatures - I can't see how this would happen... so perhaps I'm missing something.  

 

As someone who owns and runs an ISO/IEC 17025 calibrated test lab, my immediate response is:

"Show me the numbers"

and 

'Show me the traceable calibrations on the test equipment"

and

"Show me the 17025 compliant test methodologies used"

If someone making such a claim cannot do all three, then they are simply making noises worthy of a Hollywood epic. 

EricE posted:

I used www.cooltech-international.com Cost for 30 meter cable were in total €900. Nothing cracked, I only took the batteries out of the AudioQuest cables. 

 

900 Eu for one run of cable seems very, very expensive compared to similar services available in the US.  It would have been much cheaper to ship it across the Atlantic both ways ...I looked at the link you included (I wonder how long that will last here) and they certainly seem to be advocating deep cryo for musical instruments (to make new sound like old!!!), strings etc. 

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Ron Toolsie posted:

 We may not understand exactly WHY it works-but then again...how many of us REALLY understands even how a transistor works (hint....quantum mechanics is needed) -

Isn't quantum mechanics behind most things in our physical world - its just we have a complete portfolio of simplified models that were largely developed before quantum mechanics were understood? There is also one thing designing from absolute first principles - which I guess none really does - and designing from established models/patterns which is what we all tend to do.. - I remember designing a digital calculator from first principles in lab at Uni as an undergraduate  - albeit we had certain basic logic and shift register / flip flop chips to work with -  it was a real challenge as well as fascinating... but at least there was a known and established methodology behind it with a known and non subjective outcome.

I guess my point here is the actual established design models/patters for cryogenic treatment in terms of sound quality are a bit thin on the ground...... and that doesn't mean a don't admit there are sonic differences - its just I am always wary of cause and effect if the reason why is not understood.

S

Design from "first principles" is tedious, it starts with...............

          "imediately after the Big Bang...................

Fair enough...