Deep Cryo Treatment

Posted by: Arun Mehan on 07 January 2017

Happy New Year to all, I hope this year finds you enjoying your systims (ah, the memories of the forum and some of its' members) and listening to more music instead of upgrading.

So Ron (Toolsie) and I had been discussing the virtues of cryo-treated cables . I was going to audition these in Q1 2017 but then Ron discovered a place that performed this service very close to me. Turns out they actually had quite a bit of experience with audio gear as well so knew exactly what I was doing. At first I thought I would try a few cables but then looking into it more, I decided to get all my Naim cables treated. That probably turned out to be the best upgrade for the money ever - a great Christmas present. I told Ron that it was somewhere between a hicap and supercap level upgrade in my system.

I did quite a bit of research on the topic and I could go into the physics as I understand it but my overall understanding remains quite rudimentary. So in summary, the deep cryo treatment reduces the resistance of the cable...an estimate is 17-20%. This was clearly evident once I finally got the system back up and running with all the cables installed. Right from the cold (yes, pun intended), I was astounded to the new ease and flow to the music. I could hear how much resistance had disappeared! The 252 introduced just a few months earlier brought this to my system as well but with treated cables in place, it was amplified. Then I noticed the deeper and tighter bass - that was a pleasant surprise. Resolution increased across the frequency range which was no surprise so I started hearing more details as the system warmed up after being off for more than a week. Soundstage and imaging improvements also became evident. The TV sound via the NDS showed this!

I was very skeptical at first but I highly recommend it. Since I had all my cables done, there's probably a cumulative effect. As Ron was mentioning, the burndy probably benefitted the most since it has so many wires. I can hear the improvement in the NDS and CDS3 in this regard. The 01 did not benefit as much so as usual, Ron is right.

Now I'm contemplating having the Audience aR6 PDC unit treated. I did have all the tibia power cords going in and out of it treated so I think that should be the icing on the cake. After that, perhaps another 200 acting as a mono amp and then I might finally be done eek

Arun

Posted on: 08 January 2017 by Arun Mehan

Some great discussion points. I was also worried about the potential damage/cracking but fortunately the place I worked with assured me that most audio equipment should be sturdy enough to handle the cryo treatment. That being said, I did remove the Naim speaker plastic connectors (all 6 since I have F-connection cables) just in case. I don't think I would have done a hiline or powerline to be honest. I also didn't do the Chord Chorus Reference interconnect I have as it looked a bit more delicate. Optical cables are also a no-no. But everything else should be fine. As Ron mentioned, I did burndy, snaic, IC, tibia, and Nac A5 cables plus fuses.

Thanks Jan-Erik, I saw the previous posts and read them all before committing to get everything done. Also AVOptions in the US was very helpful. I would have bought cables from them but I'm in Canada and very annoyed with the duties/fees that I pay every time I ship into and out of Canada - it's become outrageous. So it was great to have someone in the Toronto area who has experience.

As others have eluded to, there are many applications for cryo treatment. I did not know this until recently but lots of audio, auto, aerospace, etc. applications. I'm seriously considering having a few parts done in my car if I can. It's just a very disruptive endeavor.

Erice, you are spot on. That's what I've come to realize as well but the cryo helped tremendously. As I mentioned, you can hear the decrease in resistance like the proverbial flood gates being opened. I appreciate getting the most out of my equipment as possible.

David, you'll be hearing from me soon regarding your inquiry. Hopefully by the end of this month.

Jon, that's an excellent thought. But considering I just rebuilt the Fraims and system this summer and performed the contact cleaning and tightening of everything, I don't assume there should be much difference over a few months. I didn't perform any contact cleaning this time, just put the cables back.

I'm a science guy so I like to look at the data first. But with audio, I've found it just comes down to what you actually hear...in your own system.

Arun

Posted on: 08 January 2017 by fatcat

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

I guess my point here is the actual established design models/patters for cryogenic treatment in terms of sound quality are a bit thin on the ground...... and that doesn't mean a don't admit there are sonic differences - its just I am always wary of cause and effect if the reason why is not understood.
S

Plus one.

Who knows what could be causing the SQ benefit. Could be micro cracks in the insulation reduce microphony.

Posted on: 08 January 2017 by fatcat

Don Atkinson posted:

"imediately after the Big Bang...................

Don

Surely you don’t believe in the hocus pocus.

I certainly don’t and won’t be changing my mind any time soon. At least not until Jon checks it out in his ISO approved lab.

Posted on: 08 January 2017 by CharlieP

fatcat posted:
Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

I guess my point here is the actual established design models/patters for cryogenic treatment in terms of sound quality are a bit thin on the ground...... and that doesn't mean a don't admit there are sonic differences - its just I am always wary of cause and effect if the reason why is not understood.
S
Plus one.
Who knows what could be causing the SQ benefit. Could be micro cracks in the insulation reduce microphony.

Fat Cat, you could be onto something. I would hope that micro cracks are not involved, but if cryo treatment reduced the effects of micro vibration on the conducted audio signal, this would likely help system sound quality.

I am glad that the subject of cable cryo treatment has become a topic of inquiry and discussion, as opposed to dismissive ridicule. Clearly mechanisms must be understood to make best use of these treatments.

Interesting thread.

Charlie

Posted on: 08 January 2017 by Innocent Bystander

Don Atkinson posted:
Simon-in-Suffolk posted:
Ron Toolsie posted:
We may not understand exactly WHY it works-but then again...how many of us REALLY understands even how a transistor works (hint....quantum mechanics is needed) -
Isn't quantum mechanics behind most things in our physical world - its just we have a complete portfolio of simplified models that were largely developed before quantum mechanics were understood? There is also one thing designing from absolute first principles - which I guess none really does - and designing from established models/patterns which is what we all tend to do.. - I remember designing a digital calculator from first principles in lab at Uni as an undergraduate - albeit we had certain basic logic and shift register / flip flop chips to work with - it was a real challenge as well as fascinating... but at least there was a known and established methodology behind it with a known and non subjective outcome.
I guess my point here is the actual established design models/patters for cryogenic treatment in terms of sound quality are a bit thin on the ground...... and that doesn't mean a don't admit there are sonic differences - its just I am always wary of cause and effect if the reason why is not understood.
S
Design from "first principles" is tedious, it starts with...............
"imediately after the Big Bang...................

Shouldn't that be during the Big Bang?

Posted on: 08 January 2017 by tonym

jon honeyball posted:
Ron Toolsie posted:
This isn't an instant gratification tweak...you have to strip the system down, send it off and wait for around a week to get the parts back-and then have to reinstall them and allow for further warm up.
Surely such a big refit of the system could be causing the perceived change? People obsess about their fraim setup, cable dressing, the repeated plugging/unplugging of cables etc. How do we know that the cryo process in the middle of all of this system tweaking is actually doing something at all..

Yep, that'll do for me. Forgive my cynicism.

Posted on: 08 January 2017 by DrMark

Shouldn't that be "cryocism" Tony?

Posted on: 08 January 2017 by alan33

Ouch, that's cold DrMark...

Regards alan

ps - nice to see 17025 mentioned JonHoneyball...and traceable evidence called for...

Posted on: 08 January 2017 by MDS

If this treatment for cabling offered a consistent and sustainable performance improvement, wouldn't Naim already do it? Or am I missing something?

Posted on: 08 January 2017 by Loki

Also see: https://forums.naimaudio.com/to...40#61543320969607140

where we made a little headway...

Posted on: 08 January 2017 by charlesphoto

The thing about the AVO tibia's is that they are cryo'ed and have Wattage plugs, so might be hard to tell which is doing what. That said I have two of them for my rig and they sound great. Plus I had them made up at 1 meter long as I don't have much room around the back and always nice to have less wires touching each other. Recently did a full dressing on my cables, including zig zagging the extra NACA5 (hifi is just to the right of the right speaker) and attaching it to the bottom of the stand the hifi is on. No wires touching anywhere and its never sounded better.

Posted on: 09 January 2017 by cat345

charlesphoto posted:
The thing about the AVO tibia's is that they are cryo'ed and have Wattage plugs, so might be hard to tell which is doing what. That said I have two of them for my rig and they sound great. Plus I had them made up at 1 meter long as I don't have much room around the back and always nice to have less wires touching each other. Recently did a full dressing on my cables, including zig zagging the extra NACA5 (hifi is just to the right of the right speaker) and attaching it to the bottom of the stand the hifi is on. No wires touching anywhere and its never sounded better.

The AVO regular Tibia without the Wattgate wall plug connector is also cryo'ed.