Do Spendor A6Rs bringing out the best of my system

Filipe. It's not really clear what your preferences are. I'd certainly suggest that you don't worry too much about sensitivity of speakers - it's like saying I want a partner, but they must be no more than five foot six. 

The reason to dismiss the Fact 12 is that your system isn't up to it - if you had a 552/500 it would be a different matter. 

Where do you live? What speakers does your dealer have? How big is your budget? 

You've had some useful setup suggestions above and it would be wise to ensure your system is set up optimally. Does you dealer actually know what they are doing? You need to have it all working properly before splashing out more money. A small setup, tweaked to perfection, can sound a lot better than a heap of expensive boxes slung together. 

Anyway, I've contributed all I can and don't want to go round in circles, so I'll step back and leave the advice to others. 

Yet142, The sockets are in a chain from top (nearest to mains) rather than radially wired from a block. I think the DAC either via its XPS DR or power lead (the DAC lights went out immediately) and the 282 via one or other of its power supplies (the sound stopped long before the SuperCap light went out and it took a while for the sound to come back so it may be control PS) are at the the top (the dealer plugged them in). 

Most of the interconnects just hang with very little slack (the Burndy to the 282 has some). The Chord Clearways loop a bit but much more between the adjacent CDX2 and the DAC. The CDX2 has a power lead in the top (low power) section which crosses the Clearway at right angles just touching because it is not supported. The DAC has a power lead but I assume the power drawn is less because the control circuits should sense the presence of the XPS. 

The sockets are to the right of the stack to avoid unnecessary crossing etc. This also partially hides them from sight but just allows access should they need to be unplugged in a hurry.

It was assembled one rack at a time, but being in a corner it's not easy to check.

The speaker cables run parallel to begin with, but the stack being on the right means the right speaker cable loops back just to loose the spare length in the 6m minimum length Naim demand. Where possible the cable runs close to the skirting board and behind radiator pipes.

Please let me know what you think is less than ideal.

The toeing does have quite a noticeable effect on sound (I won't say quality) based on the last 6 hours. The effect of reflections is quite noticeable now, but it was not 6-8 months ago when the system came together.

The progression of the system over the 6-8 months of running in has been without any 'fiddling'. I deduce that this kind of HiFi takes longer than one is told to reach its potential. This may be uncomfortable hearing.

By similar reasoning now, I learned 6-8 months ago that CDX2,  Marantz CD6000 ish and Cyrus CD8e into the DAC sound much the the same in a 4-6  week intensive trial when things are not run in. I ran the CDs on repeat 24/7 to run them and interconnects in with little effect. Now the CDX2 sounds much better than the Uniti Core whereas at first there was not much difference. Even the PC sound card into the DAC sounds much more impressive,  but it lacks the detail of the CDX2 perhaps because the Audioquest Forrest just uses the 3.5 mm adaptor that came with the sound card (there is a variant of the cable to go into a dual 3.5mm socket). It makes me feel auditioning is a bit of a waste of time when the 'run in' history is unknown including interconnects, and you are not told how long it can take.

Trusted recommendations coupled with buying the 'best' you can afford is my advice.

I will have to see what speakers I can borrow for an extended trial now! Suggestions welcome.

Just to clarify my CDX2 does have the BNC connector to plug into the DAC. My dealer believes the Naim DAC is outstanding (better than the more expensive Chord Hugo), and therefore to support a range of digital sources the Naim DAC gets the XPS DR. The CDX2 was a 2 years plus Ex demo which I got from the dealer at a real good price from my point of view.

It niggles me that the CDX2 is only used as a transport and digital sound card, but maybe good transports and sound cards matter. The 282 was also an oldish ex demo. Power Supplies and Power Amps especially DRed ones have to be bought new because people don't part with them.

Having been and still an owner of a Naim DAC and CDX2 respectively - I would say with a quality preamp - the CDX2 excels - the Naim DAC incredibly good as it is - just doesn't do the CDX2 justice - the CDX2 inbuilt DAC and DSP rocks and is optimised for that CDP. Yes the Naim DAC is more versatile and possibly more neutral - but just doesn't give that unique CDx2 character.

As far as Naim DACs and the Hugo goes - I really would make your own mind up rather than your retailer's - I did...

Simon, Thanks for the advice regarding using the CDX2 in its full form.

I take it I should give it the XPS DR. I suppose the TV and its sources will sound ok if the Naim DAC does not have a PS. It just uses a 5m Audioquest Forrest toslink optical.

I have wondered whether to part with the CDX2 if the Uniti Core is as good as the CDX2. Still waiting for a demo though after more than 2 months. I see you have a a pre-release Uniti Core, but you can't comment yet!

My system has taken an age to run-in so I think my ears would not have guided me to the best choices at the time. Instinct suggested the CDx2 was a better bet, particularly at the price I paid ex demo. I think it was also sent back to Naim for work of some sort.

I don't understand whether my run in time is much longer than the norm.

It should sound good when first powered up, there may be a dull day to follow and then gradually improve but it shouldn't need to reach the end of that curve to satisfy. Setup however is key and experimenting yourself the best way to learn.

Yeti43, I think I was spoilt by hearing a well run-in demo SuperCap DR with the well run-in ex-demo 282 I bought. The 250 DR poweramp was relatively new. I returned the new HiCap after hearing the SuperCap DR. The vinyl sounded absolutely amazing even on the RP8/Aptheta/Aria. I then had a long wait to be satisfied.

As others have suggested, if you want useful speaker suggestions it would be good to think about what you want as a result, identifying your preferences, which may help guide suggestions.

Regarding speaker sensitivity and loudness, it seems that achieving adequate maximum loudness is a concern of yours. (N.B. in discussions/contributions from othersbear in mind that that everybody's idea of acceptable listening levels is different,)  This is of course related to available amplifier power, and whatever may be the maximum power the speakers can take as well as speaker sensitivity - so whilst it is true that 6dB greater sensitivity will be nominally 6dB louder (direct sound) for the same power input, the question should be whether either is sufficient for the sound level you want given the power available from your amp before clipping, considering peak levels as well as average. If you haven't already done so you could assess your present speakers based on their declared sensitivity and sound level, and whether they can go more than loud enough in your room and system, as a baseline for comparing other speakers' declared sensitivities. (Theoretically sound level increases by 3dB with each doubling in power applied, maximum peaks then limited by the amp's peak output before clipping - theoretically because listening rooms tend to be complicated by reflections etc,  From that assessment you may get a feel for whether the 250DR is adequate for any given speaker sensitivity, (N.B. as well as power capability, another consideration would be whether and given speaker presents a load that the amp can happily deal with and adequately control the speaker.)

As well as sensitivity, perhaps you also need to decide what you want from the speakers in terms of sound, in particular at the bottom end. The PMCs you originally mentioned and on which I commented in my earlier post excel in presenting fully extended bass undiminished, while also being very taut. Not everyone seems to appreciate the bottom couple of octaves, seemingly content to hear only upper bass with the lower end either missing or severely rolled off, or even positively disliking real bass, but for those that do like and  appreciate the bottom end these PMCs are very good. (Interestingly, Fact 12 actually has switches to boost or cut the low bass to help match to the room.)

FWIW I heard the Fact 12s in two different listening rooms, and in one they seemed a bit constrained, the other they didn't and were more impressive (flat settings both times, and same amp). I also heard the MB2 in two different rooms (one the same as one of the Fact 12s), and in both cases they simply engaged and sounded great (again, same amp).

But everyone's ears, and preferences for how music should sound, are different - which leads me to your observation about  Naim and Chord DACS: Simon expressed it well, and if you search these forums you will find a strength of opinion predominently in one direction from those who have compared...

FILIPE.  Reading through your posts it appears to me you might have an issue with soft fabric tweeter domes. All of the other suggested speakers use one. I would suggest having a listen to a speaker that uses other means of putting out high frequency information, such as exotic metals and pleated air motion transformers.

The Spendor D7 does appear to make use of novel loading of a fabric dome with its LPZ Technology, so could be worth a listen.

One of the best fabric tweeters out there. ScanSpeak Revelator ring radiator.

Although not widely used in speakers.

The good thing about the feedback on toeing provided was that I learned it has a powerful influence on sound. I'm back close to where I was before as opening up the sound stage also made some instruments (on a track of Adele 19)  far too bright. I can hypothesise that my off centre listening position (to left nearly a meter because of the large fireplace) may have pushed me to the boundary of a smaller acceptable listening zone. Maybe mains condition affects the size of the best listening zone. Family life requires that the room layout and speaker positions are non negotiable outside small limits although toeing is ok.

IB, Thanks for your last post. I'm not into volume turned up excessively, but I do like to be emersed in the sound at times like distant memories of the upper circle of the Usher Hall in Edinburgh. I hate the Festival Hall of the 1980s by comparison.  I mention sensitivity because it was introduced to help buyers get a measure of how efficiently a speaker turns electrical power into (good quality) sound. Like others I operate around 9 o'clock except for vinyl where a higher setting can be needed purely because of the phono stage gain that was recommended by Rega. Without being explicit I think I'm like most people and want to get the most emotional pleasure and engagement out of listening to music. My early experience of CDs was that there was no pleasure. Now my system is beginning to deliver pleasure, but I don't know how much further it can be pushed.

Opinions seem divided on whether a 250DR can comfortably drive the Fact.12. I have no experience of what effect a lack of power has which was the reason for the original post. There are not many dealer who can loan Fact.8, Fact.12 or MB2 SE, so opinions are valuable.

I did listen to the CDx2 without going through the Naim DAC in the extended home trial but the difference then was probably masked by much of the system not being run in. I will repeat and maybe experiment with rack position as suggested by Yeti.

I have followed Naim's recommendations on earth settings (I do read manuals!). They advise that the DAC floats with their CD players. All other boxes rely on Naim's earthing scheme. The only thing I noticed in the early days was occasional transformer hum (it doesn't come from the speakers) which will may be associated with electrical conditions and usually goes away on the few occasions it happens now.

Thanks for your comments. A few tweaks in the offing.

This morning I visited my dealer to listen to some speakers. The Power Amp was a 250 DR like mine, with 202 Pre Amp sourced from Naim DAC and CD5. Not sure about there being an XPS DR. None of these run in as much as mine and just turned on from cold an hour earlier.

I started with my A6Rs to set a base of sorts for comparison. The dealer's room accentuates the bass with Pop music and the Mozart Serenade No 10 for Woodwind made the distinct sounds of the 13 instruments not very clear at all. 

Next tried the Spendor D7s - still too much base and pretty uncomfortable on the ears at times.

Next up the highly recommended Neat Ultimatum XPS speakers which needs stands. Much better but still a bit too much resonant bass. For the first time I heard the kind of sound my system gives. These are worth trying because compared with the two Spendor they are much more engaging. Some hints of echo in the room - Adele sounded as though she was singing in a large empty room.

Just to give the dealer some work, I asked to hear the Focal Sopra 2s. These sounded the most natural of all, which just goes to show that the speaker design can significantly overcome the acoustics of a room.

I would have taken home the Sopra 2s, but you need a van and two people to handle them! I settled for the Neat XLSs, which for their size pack an amazing punch. At home they do indeed sound much better than the A6Rs in the day, and may allow me to get enjoyment without waiting to the early hours. The music is very engaging and can only get better as they move from 40 hours to the 200 Neat suggest for them to be run in. I need to listen more, but I shall try more before deciding. I think I will have to try and work out what each step up in performance delivers for the price. 

I am going to try and get a chance to borrow Neat XL6s and XL10s as well as the Focal Soprano 2s. 

It seems that my A6Rs may not be working as well in some parts of the frequency spectrum, which for some reasons means that only in the late evening they sound at their best. Has anyone else experienced this?

My system has come a long way as it got run in, and perhaps it says something that speakers costing a small fraction of the overall outlay can produce some beautiful sounds at times.

Source first ! A chain is only as strong as the weakest link. Having great speakers that work in the room can shoulder the burden For the rest of the system. Good luck.

TOBYJUG posted:

Source first ! A chain is only as strong as the weakest link. Having great speakers that work in the room can shoulder the burden For the rest of the system. Good luck.

?

Filipe posted:

This morning I visited my dealer to listen to some speakers. The Power Amp was a 250 DR like mine, with 202 Pre Amp sourced from Naim DAC and CD5. Not sure about there being an XPS DR. None of these run in as much as mine and just turned on from cold an hour earlier.

Puzzled as to whether such a system would bring out the best in any of the speakers mentioned.

C.

Filipe posted:

My system has come a long way as it got run in, and perhaps it says something that speakers costing a small fraction of the overall outlay can produce some beautiful sounds at times.

So true.

C.

TOBYJUG posted:

Source first ! A chain is only as strong as the weakest link. Having great speakers that work in the room can shoulder the burden For the rest of the system. Good luck.

Better start reading from the beginning of the thread.

Christopher_M posted:

Filipe posted:

This morning I visited my dealer to listen to some speakers. The Power Amp was a 250 DR like mine, with 202 Pre Amp sourced from Naim DAC and CD5. Not sure about there being an XPS DR. None of these run in as much as mine and just turned on from cold an hour earlier.

Puzzled as to whether such a system would bring out the best in any of the speakers mentioned.

C.

Can you really expect dealers to hold ones own kit all run-in in a room just like your own? Not reasonable. They could have brought it in from elsewhere had I asked, but then I would have wanted to try the speakers at home. Some speakers take 800 hours to run-in, so you never know whether you make the right decision until quite a long time later.

The demo gave me the opportunity to whittle the list down for a home trial. 

Comments on whether my kit warrants any of these speaker is welcome, as that was the original point of the thread. 

If you click the link you will find a few tips of the trade for music mixers that highlight problem areas of the voice frequency spectrum.

http://www.audio-issues.com/mu...-areas-of-the-vocal/

It makes me think that crossovers could be the culprit with my A6Rs. 

Having the chance to compare the Neat Ultimatum XLS speakers with by Spendor A6R at home allows me to understand better what I am looking for. One interesting feature of the Neat is that playing the vinyl of Abba's "The Visitor" the vocals loose their presence and beauty with only 40-50 hours on the speaker's clock. Patience! Curiously Sade and Leonard Cohen CD tracks sound more engaging. 

PMC make the point that they use high quality crossovers with a rapid 24db roll-off. So are crossovers noticeable either as dips in response or enhancement? Also can crossovers drift from their spec or degrade in ways we can hear?

Unfortunately, the situation with crossovers isn't as simple as people assume (otherwise everyone would use 4th order Linkwitz-Reily crossovers): Different types of crossover suit different rooms.  This is because the ratio of direct to reflected sound is different with different crossover arrangements.

Filipe, none of the points in the article you reference have anything to do with the crossover region of two way speakers (roughly 1.5kHz to 4 kHz), so that has nothing to do with the crossover of the A6Rs.

The crossover of the A6R is 3.3kHz. The Neat Ultimatum XLS probably has better lower bass response. Read the article to understand what music mixing can do

http://www.audio-issues.com/mu...-areas-of-the-vocal/

According to Neat, speaker positioning relative to the walls and toeing affects bass. Further from rear wall decreases bass but increases stereo depth.

Filipe,

I have read and understood the article.  3.3kHz is sufficiently far from the presence band (around 5kHz) for the crossover not to be relevant in the context of that article.

Bass is a different issue entirely, and, in respect of speakers that are full range with respect to the room (i.e. speakers whose bass extension exceeds the lowest resonant mode of the room) the effects of room modes will completely dominate over the effect of wall reinforcement.  To sort out the bass you need to look at the room acoustics and how they interact with the speakers.

Toe-in has relatively little effect on bass and frequencies below 200Hz are effectively non-directional in normal sized domestic rooms.

Huge, Thank you for your valued response. The primary axial modes of my room are at 28, 35 and 75Hz. The tangential modes are 45, 80, 83Hz. I suppose you are saying that the tangential and oblique (the reflected) modes are less intense . The article 

http://www.marktaw.com/recordi...rashCourse1-Mod.html

says tangential are about half the intensity and oblique one quarter. Other frequencies where two multiples of these, particularly the axial, are almost equal will also be a problem. The link includes a useful calculator of the frequencies and higher modes. I assume from what you say that both speaker will be affected but the Neat only at 28-35Hz. It then depends on the music whether there will be a bass boom.

I prefer my speakers to be 700-900mm into the room. Do I reposition speakers a bit to avoid any particularly strong resonance until it work for most of what I like listening to?

I find that the speakers (A6R or Neat Ultimatum XLS) most strongly influence my enjoyments largely irrespective of positionings. The sweet spot makes some difference in intensity but does not change a speaker preference when listening to a particular piece of music. The preference may change as the Neats get run in.  So is preference more a function of frequencies above 300Hz?  

Do my observations make sense?

Filipe posted:

Christopher_M posted:

Filipe posted:

This morning I visited my dealer to listen to some speakers. The Power Amp was a 250 DR like mine, with 202 Pre Amp sourced from Naim DAC and CD5. Not sure about there being an XPS DR. None of these run in as much as mine and just turned on from cold an hour earlier.

Puzzled as to whether such a system would bring out the best in any of the speakers mentioned.

C.

Can you really expect dealers to hold ones own kit all run-in in a room just like your own? Not reasonable. They could have brought it in from elsewhere had I asked, but then I would have wanted to try the speakers at home. Some speakers take 800 hours to run-in, so you never know whether you make the right decision until quite a long time later.

The demo gave me the opportunity to whittle the list down for a home trial. 

Comments on whether my kit warrants any of these speaker is welcome, as that was the original point of the thread. 

I think it is quite reasonable to expect a dealer to arrange a demo to replicate the kit you use at home provided it is from the current range this along with extended home demo's if required it's all part of the service as far as I am concerned.

By coincidence I also had a demo at my local dealer yesterday of a Nap 300dr the demo system was an exact replication to what I use at home including the SL cables we started with the 250dr and then changed to the 300dr the system in question was fully run in, permanently powered up and had been playing for an hour or so before I arrived for the demo.

As the demo was set up in this way it was quite easy for the dealer to demonstrate the benefits the 300 had over the 250 but then it should jolly well sound better at the price difference but it also reinforces how good the 250dr is.

I hope you resolve the issues you are experiencing with your system, just take your time don't rush into changes plus don't get too hung up about the written specifications of speakers as a home trial is the only way you can tell if they are for you.

Well, the answer Is that the upgrade to the 300DR from the 250DR is immense. I got a 12 months old clearance 300DR which delivered almost immediately even with the Spendor A6R speakers. Listening to vinyl of Dvorak Symphony No 8 the various types of instrument were easily distinguished and placed. Drums sounded clearly as well. The TV sounded much more detailed as well playing through the Naim DAC via a 5m Audioquest Forest toslink.

The only thing remaining is to get the Focal Sopra 2s on demo.