More Volume: Totems + NAP150

Welcome to the madhouse! 

That's a very nice system you have there! Congrats! However, I can imagine that the Totem Forest can use a bit more power; NAP 250 should be the way to go IMHO. 

Basically, you are severely overspeakered. What you really need to do is swap your 172/150 for a 272/250DR, which is far more suitable for your speakers. 

The NAP 200 works very well with the 172, and there are plenty of used ones around (but old ones may need a service.) I'm still not sure if a 200 would be enough, but it would help. Maybe more efficient speakers would be a better and more affordable solution?

I drove a pair of Totem Hawks (86dB) for a good number of years with a 200 .. it did remarkably well.  Though the 250DR does it a lot better.

I can't help on the Naim front,  but I heard the Forest Sig at a dealer. I was discussing with him using them with a 100W/ch Tube Amp. The dealer felt that 100W/ch wasn't enough. 

50w even Naim Watts are most likely not enough. 

I'm ok with room to grow. That's a good thing. My wife approves the speaker aesthetics and their location. This is good for me, because I can leave them in place as I upgrade on the electronics end of things.

I still questioning how much volume/power will be provided by moving to 70 or 80wpc. On paper, that's not a big leap right? I'm going to check other threads in the forum to see if I can find opinions about volume/power differences in Naim power amps. Also I'm open to hearing about non-Naim amps.

Thanks for the replies so far!

Totems are notorious for needing a lot. But wether that means power or quality depends on you. Unfortunately power and quality comes with a big ticket. Although you can get quality lest power at not too big a price.., plus also power lest quality. Depends on your compromise.

It takes double the power to increase by 3dB - starting from 1w giving  87bB at 1 metre from the speaker in the OP's case. How loud at the listening position then depends on the distance from the speakers (all this as modified by room effects such as absorption, reflection and standing waves)

So 50 to 70 or 80w in itself is not something to get too hung up about - what matters more is how the amp behaves with transients pushing it above the rated output, as aside from average volume, what matters for sound quality in terms of power is adequate capability for the peaks without pushing the amp to clipping. And that tends to be where better amps do it better.

My power amp is capable of 500w RMS before clipping, but if I play loud (live rock levels), the overload light sometimes flashes on peaks. I can't say that on balance it is capable of playing louder than my previous amp which was about half that rating, and the amp I had before that at 70w provided adequate loudness, though I have no idea whether or when it might have been overloading. What the light on my present amp  is telling me is that on transient peaks at high listening levels whatever peak capacity it might have is insufficient - although as it is rare and only momentary it doesn't make me dash out for an amp capable of twice the power.

272/250dr would be a minimum for forest Sigs. The 250 is not just a little better than the 200. Don't think that 'it's only 10 more watts', it's a radically different design. 

You won't necessarily be able to go louder, but you might not have to with the drop in noise from better electronics. 

The forests only get better with better electronics, having heard a pair on an NDS/555PS/252/Supercap/300DR, they sure have a lot more to give. 

Jujobox posted:

I'm ok with room to grow. That's a good thing. My wife approves the speaker aesthetics and their location. This is good for me, because I can leave them in place as I upgrade on the electronics end of things.

I still questioning how much volume/power will be provided by moving to 70 or 80wpc. On paper, that's not a big leap right? I'm going to check other threads in the forum to see if I can find opinions about volume/power differences in Naim power amps. Also I'm open to hearing about non-Naim amps.

Thanks for the replies so far!

 

You will most likely need a 250 in the Naim hiearchy

Get the older version, Chrome or olive, much cheaper and a great amp if good condition

No idea of compatible with 172

Watts on paper is really un- usefull

As for non Naim poweramp there' s plenty out there, do you have a budget ?

Notice your in a sheepyard so basically don' t expect much on the objective scene, most people just continously and endless recommend their own stuff, maybe to justify their expensive purchase, a bit blindfolded vielleicht

Beeing a Naim user myself, well mostly, I'd suggest you also look at Devialet, Exposure, Parasound etc. Its a jungle.

Jujobox,

FWIW, I'll relay my journey with Totem Sttafs - three steps lower on the Totem floorstander ladder than your Forest Sigs. The Sttafs are rated slightly more efficient at 8Ω, 88 dB versus the Sig's 8Ω, 87 dB. Here's what I found with regard to amplification on the Sttafs, all using the same runs of NACA5, same room:

• Rega Brio-R (50 W) - couldn't drive the Sttafs, surprisingly the prominent failure was with the tweeters
• Naim Uniti (50 W) - produced a decent, entry-level sound, but still lacking a top to bottom grip
• Naim Nait XS (60 W) - an acceptable overall drive of the Sttafs that I enjoyed for two years
• Naim Supernait 2 (80 W) - excellent bottom end grip and overall coherence! Realization of the Sttaf's true potential

Granted, the only common factor in this allegory relative to you may be the Totem floorstanders, but I'd subscribe to the notion that Totem as a brand are generally power hungry speakers, and I don't think it has to do with loud listening. In fact, the bottom end grip/drive with greater amplification is IME better appreciated at lower volume listeing. Despite never having the Sigs in my room, I'd say you're under powered.

Totem speakers have outstanding PRaT and gel well with Naim. If feasible, demo higher powered Naim amplification with your Sigs; otherwise, be prepared to explore speakers that are more efficient for your current amp and forgo the Totem sound.

Welcome to the forum. As others say it appears you are over speakered. The 172 is a fine source. I have heard it drive a NAP300 into a pair of large Kudos Titans incredibly well and powerfully into a largish room.. i seem to remember it was opera and orchestral I was listening too... so yes I suspect you need to up the amp... and yes Naim won't be the cheapest Watts out there .. but they will be some of the more enjoyable.

if the 300 is too much of a stretch, consider a used 250..... it's a classic Naim workhorse amp, and importantly it's the first of the Naim regulated amps so will drive your speakers more consistently well.

i guess you are also aware, amp power isn't all bout sound pressure from the speakers, but it's also about control and frequency consistency of the speaker transducers so they are in the correct displacement position at a point in time...

Referring back to the specific question of loudness for a given power, and my post stating the direct relationship, in case it is hard to imagine what a 1-2 dB in loudness sounds like (for a change from 50 to 70 or 80W ignoring other differences), I understand that one or more Naim volume controls go in steps of 1dB over the lower part of their range, and 0.5dB for the top end ( not sure where the changeover is, though I have in mind it ia about 2/3rd of full volume). So if your amp runs out of steam (starts clipping) at a point in the upper part of the range, the more powerful amp would allow 1-2 steps higher on the volume control. N.B. I understand that with one exception Naim's power amps all have the same gain so will achieve the same loudness for the same VC setting.

This talk of loudness reminds me of something - since my second pair of speakers on my hifi journey they have always been relatively large. And almost universally the first reaction of any visitors not into hifi has been along the lines of: "wow, tbose are big speakers - how loud do they go?"The answer, as we all know, is it depends on the volume control setting, while sensitivity and max output is not related to the size of the speaker (other than that horns covering the bass end as well, which are extremely efficient  are extremely large)

Stereophile seem to have reviewed the Forrests 3 times. I've not read the reviews but their measuements indicate the Forrests are an easy amplifier load, not much under 8Ohms. The 150 will have good reserves for transient power considering its 50W rms. Orchestral music will probably be the most challenging as the loud bits tend to last longer which can drain the capacitors before they have a chance to fill up again. Keep an ear out for unpleasant noises from the speakers for a while and turn it down in a hurry if you hear any, you'll find out what it can do fairly quickly, if you're not trying to fill a barn you'll probably be OK. How large is the space your system has to fill? 

Whether the 150 can get noise out of the speakers is one thing; whether fronting a £6,000 speaker with a 172/150 is something else. A 250 with an appropriate preamp and source is surely what's required. This is the trouble with buying expensive speakers and then finding out what it costs to feed them properly. 

Did you get this equipment from a dealer or 2nd hand?  Your dealer if you have one should be able to give you some guidance.  You haven't mentioned your budget for another amp.  Maybe you could demo a nap200 or 250 if you can afford them.  

I see that you are in the USA.  A company that makes inexpensive decent amps is Emotiva.  I have used a pair of their monoblocks with my Qute to reasonable affect.  

I read it that the system had been bought already so might as well hear what it can do, at least it's an easy load. He'll soon work out if he can live with the result. If it's mainly sins of omission it might be alright. I suspect the streaming preamp may be the bigger compromise. 

Hey All - thanks so much for the informative replies. I'm really impressed with the response from the community.

You guys have made me think of some other info that I can include. The room is 16 x20 ft = 320 sq ft. The listening position varies. I have a couple different spots where I usually sit. These positions are about 9 ft and 15 ft from the speakers. I am still getting acclimated. I had some panic moments about power amp distortion/transients/overloading...turns out I have some tracks where vinyl popping noises were added as an effect. I also think I have some rips that I made from CDs that had imperfections on them. Reproduced at volume through the system...these made for some scary sounds! I have so much listening to do before I feel I will have a really good handle on things.

To get to the loudness that I enjoy, I am running the system at 46-52 on the dial, depending on the recording. I have read that as a rule of thumb, amps start to distort at about halfway through their volume range... Hence, my concern. I'm thinking the NAP150 will not sustain me at the levels I want to operate at...and I don't want to fry my precious speakers. I feel like, I've made this great investment, but I can't really run it safely the way I want to. Good thing, I'm smart enough not to break it. I'd rather live with "not quite loud enough" than damaged gear.

I am not planning on making a move really soon. I smoked my budget getting into the system that I bought. It was a good deal, so cobbled together the funds so I could get started enjoying some fine audio. I knew I'd have to put some more $$$ into this before I was truly blown away. I like to research things before making a move, and I value the opinion of other folks; hence, I started this thread. Already I have some good data to ponder.

I am very curious about amp design, and how I may not require more than 70 or 80wpc - due to better electronics. How it is that the way those watts are used can make such a difference in perceived volume and fullness. I have heard this kind of thing with guitar amps, something I am very familiar with. In guitar amps, because they usually distort somewhat, to get louder AND cleaner, you realllly have to up the power. 30w vs 50w will not get you much more clean volume in a guitar amp. 30w vs 150w = big difference. I was expecting a difference in the hi-fi world, but as of now I don't know how that works.

Also, I would expect most budgets worldwide probably can only stretch to a NAP 200 or 250? That must be enough to drive even difficult speakers to high volumes yes? If not, wouldn't that suggest that the Naim crowd is either not into high volumes or that Naim folks tend to use easy to drive speakers? I know loudness isn't everything, that's not why we're all here, but when one has a $10k or $15k system, wouldn't you expect to be able to play any volume you choose?

I think when people buy a $10-$15 k system the investigate what suits their requirements, and choose something thta does what they want, or as close as can be achieved in that budget - or at least, that's what I have always done, whether a tenth of that or twice that value.

In order to help others picture better what your loudness issue may be, what is it that is the limiting factor at present: you get to maximum on the VC and it isn't loud enough, or you get to your 46-52 and dont dare go higher because of what you read?

if it audibly distorts, then you should back it off, if not, then it might be able to go higher. Whatever you read is too much of a generalisation, as it depends what preamp, what power amp, and what speakers.

Yes, I didn't mean to imply any kind of negative energy about the systems of others. I am aware its quite possible to spend large or small amounts on a system where loudness is not the key factor. I should've cleaned that up a bit.

I'm still listening to determine whether I'm stressing the system at 46-52. I am hearing so many new things in my recordings, and discovering some of them are damaged or imperfect. Let me ask this - how do I truly know when I'm over-taxing the amp? Will it consistently make distorted sounds - crackles and pops? As in every couple seconds? Or will it be more selective and only make distorted sounds on higher dynamic passages? How will I know when too much is too much?

I would expect it to manifect itself as distortion on peaks - you're clearly familiar with guitar distortion, so its like that on whatever the sound is. THat's definitely the time to back it off a bit. 

Some amps (none of Naim's as far as I know) have a power indicator, which can warn, but otherwise the indicator is your hearing - loud passages should just sound louder, not distorted, rougher, crackly or anything else.

Jujobox posted:

 

.... Let me ask this - how do I truly know when I'm over-taxing the amp? Will it consistently make distorted sounds - crackles and pops? As in every couple seconds? Or will it be more selective and only make distorted sounds on higher dynamic passages? How will I know when too much is too much? ...

Hi

As being an hifi-newbe, these are my observations:

Clipping: I've done various tests on my Supernait 1 + B&W CM1 setup. When I did set the SN on 12 for a longer time, clipping happened after a longer period of time listening to Symphonies. It seems that after some time, the capacitors or so run out of energy and this metalish sound comes out of the tweeters. I must say that having my SN on 12 is an awful amount of noise. It's so loud that I did not enjoy it.

Way before that, when you does not feel comfortable with the music, and the source is good, the amp might be too stressed which influences the music negatively. In case you had a more powerful amp, you could still feel comfortable having the same decibels.

Do you have an iPhone or iPad?

There is an app called Decibel 10th.  Sit in you main listening environment and crank up the music to your normal level. Then go loud. Run the app and watch you peak spl.   Make note of how loud it is. 

Do do a google search for Peak SPl and there is a home theater calculator. Fill in the values and "play" with the amplifier value to get to your peak spl above. 

This is an approximation of how much power you are actually using. Should give you an idea if you need more power or just better power. 

Don't be shocked if you are using way less power than you expect.  

Brubacca posted:

Do you have an iPhone or iPad?

There is an app called Decibel 10th.  Sit in you main listening environment and crank up the music to your normal level. Then go loud. Run the app and watch you peak spl.   Make note of how loud it is. 

 

Do do a google search for Peak SPl and there is a home theater calculator. Fill in the values and "play" with the amplifier value to get to your peak spl above. 

This is an approximation of how much power you are actually using. Should give you an idea if you need more power or just better power. 

Don't be shocked if you are using way less power than you expect.  

 

That sort of measurement is only really useful for comparing different systems, as readings on the iPhone can easily be more than 10dB or more wrong: I have compared Decibel 10th and three other apps, and Decbel 10th read significantky lower than the other three about 20dB (dB volume, DecibelMeter and Soundeter on the other hand were in the same balpark as one another), although mupy knowledge of sound levels suggests Decibel 10th is the most inaccurate. And 20dB difference is a factor equates to 100x power to the speaker 

Having some experience with using Naim and Totems, Hawks in my case, I'd advise you look for quality cheaper watts.  

A 250 is absolute minimum with those forests but you can do better elsewhere. If I were you I'd be looking at Bryston for the power amp. Especially if you're in Canada or the US.

Really good amps these although don't expect many to agree on this forum.