More Volume: Totems + NAP150

In practice even very loud listening on 87dB/W/m speakers is likely to be only be at an average of up to just very few watts, well under the RMS rating of the amp. Peaks, however can be maybe 10-20dB higher than average level in rock music (20dB being 100x amp power) though in some classical music it might be a lot higher than the average, but then the average level tends to be lower in the first place even when listening loud.

But amplifier maximum peak power capability tends not to be quoted by hifi manufacturers like Naim, and it is not just dependant on the power supply reservoir capacitor capacity, but factors to do with voltage capability of the output transistors, and indeed the supply rail voltage.

Mark J posted:

Having some experience with using Naim and Totems, Hawks in my case, I'd advise you look for quality cheaper watts.  

A 250 is absolute minimum with those forests but you can do better elsewhere. If I were you I'd be looking at Bryston for the power amp. Especially if you're in Canada or the US.

Really good amps these although don't expect many to agree on this forum. 

Using a Bryston myself, I agree they're very good but that is not to suggest that Naim amps are not capable of driving these particular speakers optimally and getting the best out of them, though undoubtedly the higher the model the better chance it has of doing so.

Jujobox,

Welcome to the forum.  You have a very nice HiFi.  The consensus is that your speakers quality and cost are out of balance to the electronics, but you should be able to enjoy music for a few years, and then perhaps rebalance or upgrade the electronics if desired (and affordable).  

Don't worry about the volume numbers.  You should be able to turn the volume up until the music begins to distort - often you will dive for the remote to turn it down, because it just sounds awful.  There are large differences  in different recordings, and some are mastered very loud.  I would expect this distortion to affect your esthetic sensibility well below the level where damage will occur.

If the distortion originates from amplifier overload or clipping, you will hear this first on musical transients (assuming the recording has reasonable dynamic range).  Transients may sound hard or brittle.

What are you using for an equipment rack?  

It may seem surprising, but if the equipment and connecting cables are poorly supported (especially if there are rattles or micro-rattles) the music signals can be distorted by micro-vibration in the equipment, which may begin to occur at increased volume levels and get worse as volume increases from there.  If this is occurring it will distort much or all of the music, maybe not just transients.  It will not sound hard or brittle, but just a roughness or edge and an increased noise floor.  I am not saying this is your problem, but when this occurs, the very surprising result is that the rack - not the amplifier - is limiting the usable sound volume.

You will surely not be able to recreate live performance volume levels in your room.  But hopefully, as you discover the limits of your gear, you will be able enjoy your music with the system you have for some time to come.

Charlie

I cranked it up today for about 90 minutes. I experimented with lots of stuff from different recordings, some mixed hotter than others. I was about 50% satisfied. Many recordings sound really excellent, all of them sound at least very good, but I think I can hear some of the lack of composure or "struggle" with the system trying to keep all the instruments together. Someone pointed out earlier that in this area, with a more capable amp, I should hear better results and both low and high volumes. While there isn't anything "wrong" with what I'm hearing now, I can use my imagination and musical ear to predict how things could sound more cohesive, relaxed, etc... to present an altogether more "in command" and convincing sound stage. I want that. Yes I do. It's going to take some time.

Depending on my ability to gather up funds, I can try a Naim NAP 250 or something else that gives me higher power at a lower price point. Obviously, I won't pair my rig with low quality stuff. But there have to be other options for less $$$ such as Bryston, Parasound, etc... I could pick up one of those and run it for a couple years until I can afford a NAP 250 or NAP 300.

I would get the 272 first, this is a much more capable pre-amp, with a much better streamer/DAC on board. The 250 will be a bit lost without it. 

OK, matching amps to speakers isn't as easy as X Watts from the amp and Y dB/W from the speakers.  The speakers aren't a simple resistive load, their impedance is complex.  Some amps claim very high power outputs into 8Ω or 4Ω loads, but run out of current capability when driving complex speaker loads.  This is where the NAP 250 comes in - it'll drive 70 real Watts into almost anything.  Having said that, the totems have a minimum impedance of 6.4Ω, so they shouldn't be too difficult a load (but they still don't mention the phase angle, so I can't be completely certain of that).

Schiit Audio is releasing a $700 100W/ch amp in the next couple months.  These guys make high quality gear and the amp should be amazing.  People who heard the prototype at RMAF really liked it.

250 I expect would drive the speakers nicely, but quality watts at lower prices is possible. Since you're in the US, check out Odyssey Audio and James Romeyn NC400 builds. Plenty of reviews available. 

I have a lot to learn. One of the benefits of Naim is the small size. Based on a few of the posts here, it seems that one can achieve the same loudness, power, and authority from a relatively small NAP 250, that you might find in other builders much larger sized 200wpc amps? A lot of those amps are very large and I cannot fit them in my space. I will spend some time digesting info on voltage, capacitors, damping, and related items. Should be fun. Thanks to those who have suggested alternative amps. I have poked around there too.

While you're experimenting things like a decent rack, stacking order, cable dressing and even the order you plug the equipment into a power strip can have an effect though this tends to be greater higher up the range, keeping the instruments together is one of the things effected.  I suggest you search the forum for some background on this, not everyone agrees on the best arrangement and you may hear no difference from some of them. It's worth avoiding switching mode power supplies on the same spur as the Naim boxes too.

Jujobox posted:

I'm ok with room to grow. That's a good thing. My wife approves the speaker aesthetics and their location. This is good for me, because I can leave them in place as I upgrade on the electronics end of things.

I still questioning how much volume/power will be provided by moving to 70 or 80wpc. On paper, that's not a big leap right? I'm going to check other threads in the forum to see if I can find opinions about volume/power differences in Naim power amps. Also I'm open to hearing about non-Naim amps.

Thanks for the replies so far!

 

I use Teddy Pardo MB100s to drive very demanding Totem Mani-2s (4 ohms/85db) with plenty of headroom

Jujobox posted:

I have a lot to learn. One of the benefits of Naim is the small size. Based on a few of the posts here, it seems that one can achieve the same loudness, power, and authority from a relatively small NAP 250, that you might find in other builders much larger sized 200wpc amps? A lot of those amps are very large and I cannot fit them in my space. I will spend some time digesting info on voltage, capacitors, damping, and related items. Should be fun. Thanks to those who have suggested alternative amps. I have poked around there too.

My lovely Naits drive my speakers crazy and stay absolutely cool.

Don't forget that something like a Nap 200 rated at 72 watts can go 121 watts at 4 ohms and probably 200 watts at 2ohms.

The new Nap 250 dr is ' only' rated at 80 watts but is able to have 92 watts into 8 ohm with 163 watts into 4 ohm, then 265 into 2 and a whopping 345 watts into 1 ohm.  Some amps that have a high rating into 8 and 4 ohms can be limited into 2 and 1 ohm. When you have speakers that draws more at certain frequencies than others it's good to have a stiff design.

To build on some earlier points. Are you actually worried about the ability of your gear to drive your speakers based on your listening experience or based on feedback people are providing you?  Is it loud enough for you? Does it sound good to you?  That's all that really matters.

I have experienced the differences in presentation, tone, control and grip from different amps on the same speakers. The ability of an amplifier to extract the very best from your speaker is different than the OP's question of volume.  Some earlier suggestions re: SPL measurement apps are excellent.  Find the volume you are actually listening at and you can math out approximatley how much wattage you really need. 

Being overly simplistic, as speaker efficiency is typically reported, it is 1 watt of power at the specified ohm to provide the reported DB of sound at 1 metre of distance.  The power requirements typically double with every further 3db.  So for your speakers, 1W @87DB, 2W @90, 4@ 93, 8@96 and so on.  

I use 85DB 6ohm Duntech PCL10s.  I've ran them to unhealthly volume levels with ease on a 20 watt Class A amplifier.  My SuperNAIT 1 is also capable of driving them to levels that are simply too loud to listen to without causing hearing damage or risking eviction!

If you like how it sounds and it drives them to a volume you find sufficient for how you like to experience your music - be content and enjoy!

Nathan

Nathan,

I have 2 answers for this:

- yes I can get the system loud enough to satisfy; however at that volume I get the feeling that some of the control is lost, and things can get a bit messy sounding. At those volumes, the system doesn't fill me with confidence that it is firmly in command of all the sonic data, and that it can pump it out without distress. It doesn't play to my desired volume with ease and relaxation. By no means is it bad, not nearly...but I crave more.

- at lower volumes, the sound is very pleasing as well, but still probably lacks some of the authority that I think I want to hear. When I use my mind's ear, I can imagine the difference. I can hear in my head the extra stuff that I want to hear from the speakers.

I'm assuming, perhaps falsely, that more (good quality) power will lead to greater authority at both low and high volumes, and that high volumes things will be rock solid, and sound just as "relaxed" as they do at lower volume - only louder.

My only reference is guitar amps since I'm so new to hi-fi. I can play the riff from "Welcome to the Jungle" on a 30w amp with a 1x12 speaker, and sure it can sound really great. If I play the same riff on a 100w amp with a 4x12 speaker, the sound is much more commanding, with a bigger sonic footprint, and a breathiness and ease that cannot be achieved with the 30w amp - even if both amps are played at the same db/spl.

Just a reminder that the calculations and measurements above are for resistive loads - they don't take into account the imaginary current demand on the amps power supply and output stage.  Real speakers don't behave that way.

Jujobox posted:

Nathan,

I have 2 answers for this:

- yes I can get the system loud enough to satisfy; however at that volume I get the feeling that some of the control is lost, and things can get a bit messy sounding. At those volumes, the system doesn't fill me with confidence that it is firmly in command of all the sonic data, and that it can pump it out without distress. It doesn't play to my desired volume with ease and relaxation. By no means is it bad, not nearly...but I crave more.

- at lower volumes, the sound is very pleasing as well, but still probably lacks some of the authority that I think I want to hear. When I use my mind's ear, I can imagine the difference. I can hear in my head the extra stuff that I want to hear from the speakers.

I'm assuming, perhaps falsely, that more (good quality) power will lead to greater authority at both low and high volumes, and that high volumes things will be rock solid, and sound just as "relaxed" as they do at lower volume - only louder.

My only reference is guitar amps since I'm so new to hi-fi. I can play the riff from "Welcome to the Jungle" on a 30w amp with a 1x12 speaker, and sure it can sound really great. If I play the same riff on a 100w amp with a 4x12 speaker, the sound is much more commanding, with a bigger sonic footprint, and a breathiness and ease that cannot be achieved with the 30w amp - even if both amps are played at the same db/spl.

 

Your perceived problem seems to be control at higher volume levels and authority at lower levels - this is exactly what a 250 will give over a 150 (and it's not related to the power output figure!).

The assumption that more power will give more authority is unfortunately false (unfortunately as if they were correlated then you'd be able to determine how good a power amp is simply by looking at it's 8Ω [resistive] power output - which would make things very much easier!).  Similarly the analogy with the guitar amp doesn't work well either (amongst other things you're also talking about altering the loudspeaker driver area as well as the amp).

One of the main advantages of better amps is the ability to provide very fast current rise times from the output stage.

Yes, good catch, I changed the speakers in the scenario I made up - from 1 speaker to 4. Not fair indeed. Tubes would also be different. Folks, will understand the spirit of what I meant I think. Thanks for catching that.

Are there recommended articles and reading for power amp design? I am going to check, there has to be lots of great stuff online.

You could do worse by starting with looking up Nelson Pass. He has ideas about design, tests and listening and gives out schematics of his designs and advice if your a competent DIYer. His legacy if you could call it that,as still very active - is that the first watt is the most important one.