New Kudos Titan 707

analogmusic posted:

 

After many years of experiments, I would rather much spend 20K GBP split between source and preamp, and not at all that keen spending that kind of money on a speaker, not unless we are talking about sonus faber stradivari, Dynaudio confidence range or B&W 800 series. But still source and preamp first (and speaker last with any remaining cash). 

20 K will buy you a fully loaded LP12, NDS/555DR, Linn Klimax katalyst DS or the latest Chord Blu2 with Dave DAC.

20K will also buy NAC 552, I know that is a lot more interesting purchase to me than any 20 K GBP speaker. or 10 K GBP speaker.

And then there is the Superlumina full loom.....

 

I think the premise here is that the rest of the system is sorted out and you're in the market for a speaker at this level. I'm sure the 707 will be a cracker but like all speakers, won't appeal to everyone. Anyone in the market for these would no doubt be comparing them to number of models around this price level both at a dealer and at home before making a decision. 

I must admit I feel paying a significant amount  of money for a passive/passive crossover speaker is not a great idea... a passive speaker is flawed because of its crossover - and this is going to ultimately compromise performance, and given where the crossover will typically operate this is the area we are most sensitive to.  If I was going to really invest in larger scale audio replay I think it would need to be active speakers, or active crossover powered speakers. Can the Kudos speaker be actively crossover driven?

S

Yes - with the appropriate electronics the 808's can run active as can the S10 and S20 models. 

James

With 'appropriate' meaning Linn or Devialet it seems. 

Yes Nigel. It's a shame that Naim doesn't seem to be that interested in this route anymore.  I'm not sure if the big Focals are designed to easily bypass the crossover for active operation ?

James

analogmusic posted:

Innocentbystander

bass response of Proac studio 140 Mk 2 : 25 HZ (around 2000 GBP)

Bass response of Kudos S20 : 30 HZ (4400 GBP)

Good bass response is no longer a real luxury anymore and is available for reasonable prices. Whatever S20 does for the 4400 GBP asking price, it can't be only because of deep bass.

In fact I remember a thread by HungryHalibut, do modern speakers have too much bass...  

If you read the review of the Dynaudio X12 on Stereophile, John Atkinson ends the review (at the end on the measurements page) by saying "I am not surprised. For $1200/pair, a well-engineered speaker like this makes it hard to justify spending more on a bookshelf speaker unless you can afford one of the cost-no-object models"

As for B&W 800 series, well I was told me many times by this forum, that B&W and Naim don't mix well together, but it is nice to see that quite a few forum members own 802D and Naim. I used to have 805S and still miss them....

After many years of experiments, I would rather much spend 20K GBP split between source and preamp, and not at all that keen spending that kind of money on a speaker, not unless we are talking about sonus faber stradivari, Dynaudio confidence range or B&W 800 series. But still source and preamp first (and speaker last with any remaining cash). 

20 K will buy you a fully loaded LP12, NDS/555DR, Linn Klimax katalyst DS or the latest Chord Blu2 with Dave DAC.

20K will also buy NAC 552, I know that is a lot more interesting purchase to me than any 20 K GBP speaker. or 10 K GBP speaker.

And then there is the Superlumina full loom.....

 

Everyone has their own preferences and experiences.

If I was starting now with nothing and £20k to spend on a system there is no way I would buy the amp and speakers new, and I'd certainly be considering speakers up to £15k or more new value, the speakers focussing on ones that sound good to me. If I had to buy it all new and had to decide between Dave and speakers up to only about £5k max or Hugo with more than double that for speakers (and of course TT in between), I would audition speakers before deciding. Dave is astounding, but Hugo is still extremely good and very satisfying and it would depend on the compromise at the speaker end as to which I would actually choose, though based on past experience it is very possible that the greater amount on speakers might win.

None of this means I would rule out cheaper speakers out of hand if there was good reason to believe they stand a chance of sounding good to me, indeed it would be great to find cheap speakers that sound fantastic to me that free up cash for other things. This is where it is great to glean things from others on this forum, so peoples' speaker observations are always useful, especially if backed by comparative assessments of performance against other speakers other readers might be familiar with.

As for manufacturers' specs and reviews, I know from experience that specs are more a guide to the limitations than how good something is, while reviews are only truly meaningful where the reader has learnt that the reviewer has the same feel for music as them.

You make out that you have no interest in expensive speakers, considering £2k or so to be adequate for any system, though it is curious that you also say you' would be interested in the Sonus Stradivarius, B&W 800 series and Dynaudio Confidence - so it appears that in fact you can see that expensive speakers may be better and worth buying, just perhaps the right ones for you have not been discussed, or are simply too expensive to contemplate. BTW, Stradivari speakers do crop up secondhand sometimes towards the bottom of the £10-£20k bracket...

james n posted:

Yes Nigel. It's a shame that Naim doesn't seem to be that interested in this route anymore.  I'm not sure if the big Focals are designed to easily bypass the crossover for active operation ?

James

 

Funnily enough, while having a coffee and catching up with Mark and Jason at the factory yesterday, with the demise of Naim's own home-grown speakers, we were idly speculating on how a pair of "Naimed" active Focal Sopras might perform.  It would be a way down the priority list, but I would hope somebody in R&D might at some point try doing just that - a nice little "blue sky" side project, perhaps?

Hungryhalibut posted:

With 'appropriate' meaning Linn or Devialet it seems. 

The Linn option offers a choice of amplification. The Devialet option allows choice of source.

Interesting info Richard - I would have thought that would be some time well spent given the enthusiasm for the Sopra range. 

Sadly James it was just a little bit of idle speculation on our part.  There are doubtless many more important projects on the simmer right now.

If you were to put a few active amps inside the Sopras it would be far cheaper than using external boxes and crossover, as there would be no cases. Or even hang them on the back in bog standard case like ATC do with the 40A. It certainly seems a logical thing to do. 

depends on what one is looking for, the Naim sound is now available for little outlay on the Mu-so QB, which has active speakers.

it is a very fine way to enjoy music, love the QB !

Innocent Bystander posted:

analogmusic posted:

Innocentbystander

bass response of Proac studio 140 Mk 2 : 25 HZ (around 2000 GBP)

Bass response of Kudos S20 : 30 HZ (4400 GBP)

Good bass response is no longer a real luxury anymore and is available for reasonable prices. Whatever S20 does for the 4400 GBP asking price, it can't be only because of deep bass.

In fact I remember a thread by HungryHalibut, do modern speakers have too much bass...  

If you read the review of the Dynaudio X12 on Stereophile, John Atkinson ends the review (at the end on the measurements page) by saying "I am not surprised. For $1200/pair, a well-engineered speaker like this makes it hard to justify spending more on a bookshelf speaker unless you can afford one of the cost-no-object models"

As for B&W 800 series, well I was told me many times by this forum, that B&W and Naim don't mix well together, but it is nice to see that quite a few forum members own 802D and Naim. I used to have 805S and still miss them....

After many years of experiments, I would rather much spend 20K GBP split between source and preamp, and not at all that keen spending that kind of money on a speaker, not unless we are talking about sonus faber stradivari, Dynaudio confidence range or B&W 800 series. But still source and preamp first (and speaker last with any remaining cash). 

20 K will buy you a fully loaded LP12, NDS/555DR, Linn Klimax katalyst DS or the latest Chord Blu2 with Dave DAC.

20K will also buy NAC 552, I know that is a lot more interesting purchase to me than any 20 K GBP speaker. or 10 K GBP speaker.

And then there is the Superlumina full loom.....

 

Everyone has their own preferences and experiences.

If I was starting now with nothing and £20k to spend on a system there is no way I would buy the amp and speakers new, and I'd certainly be considering speakers up to £15k or more new value, the speakers focussing on ones that sound good to me. If I had to buy it all new and had to decide between Dave and speakers up to only about £5k max or Hugo with more than double that for speakers (and of course TT in between), I would audition speakers before deciding. Dave is astounding, but Hugo is still extremely good and very satisfying and it would depend on the compromise at the speaker end as to which I would actually choose, though based on past experience it is very possible that the greater amount on speakers might win.

None of this means I would rule out cheaper speakers out of hand if there was good reason to believe they stand a chance of sounding good to me, indeed it would be great to find cheap speakers that sound fantastic to me that free up cash for other things. This is where it is great to glean things from others on this forum, so peoples' speaker observations are always useful, especially if backed by comparative assessments of performance against other speakers other readers might be familiar with.

As for manufacturers' specs and reviews, I know from experience that specs are more a guide to the limitations than how good something is, while reviews are only truly meaningful where the reader has learnt that the reviewer has the same feel for music as them.

You make out that you have no interest in expensive speakers, considering £2k or so to be adequate for any system, though it is curious that you also say you' would be interested in the Sonus Stradivarius, B&W 800 series and Dynaudio Confidence - so it appears that in fact you can see that expensive speakers may be better and worth buying, just perhaps the right ones for you have not been discussed, or are simply too expensive to contemplate. BTW, Stradivari speakers do crop up secondhand sometimes towards the bottom of the £10-£20k bracket...

Good response - echoes my own feelings about speakers to a large extent.  Analogue's comments took me back to the 1970's when hifi reviews were largely a "battle of the specs" (still the case with some mags??) and disappointment inevitably came from the disparity between measured performance and perceived performance.

IMHO forum discussions about speakers are great fun but largely pointless because one's perceived performance of any speaker will depend to a very large extent on the upstream components, the room in which the speaker is being used, and, as Innocent Bystander said, one's personal taste in speaker character and sound.  The extended debate about the S400 illustrates the point; many found it ticked all of the boxes for them and others found several other similarly priced speakers more to their taste.  Case in point: after the recommended "running in" period I have never found the S20 to be "hot"on any other than poor recordings. With an Olive 250 I found the bass a tad plummy in my room, but that disappeared when I introduced the 135's.  

When the 707 is launched I may do what I usually do: go to my Naim/Kudos dealer to have an extended demo and, if I feel the performance justifies the quite signifiant cost, have a home demo.  Of course, they could still fall at the last fence when SWMBO rules on the visual aesthetics

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

I must admit I feel paying a significant amount  of money for a passive/passive crossover speaker is not a great idea... a passive speaker is flawed because of its crossover - and this is going to ultimately compromise performance, and given where the crossover will typically operate this is the area we are most sensitive to.  If I was going to really invest in larger scale audio replay I think it would need to be active speakers, or active crossover powered speakers. Can the Kudos speaker be actively crossover driven?

S

The other day, for no particular reason, I got it into my head that, were I to try the system in a passive configuration, just maybe it wouldn’t sound too bad and anyway I would quickly adapt to the new sound. It should be pretty good, using a single 500, 552 into DBLs. Yes, it’d be fine, and I could dispose of six boxes plus several layers of Fraim and miles of assorted cabling.

So I dragged the passive crossovers down from the loft, attached them to the speakers, rerouted cables, and fired her up…Well, perhaps it just needs time to warm up. After a couple of hours I settled down for a serious listen. Oh dear. I’ve put it all back to active now.

This is a bit silly really. I’d planned to give it a few days, thinking I’d get used to it and forget all about the old setup. It’s down to the time I’ve spent with the system in its present form I suppose. If i want along to someone else’s pad & listed to a 552/500/DBL system I’d be listening to its good points, but all I hear is how dull it sounds here. What's even more crazy is that I listen to various friends' passive systems and really like them. Our second system in another place is passive but sounds great. Still, life’s too short to worry. Onwards…

So it would be really wizard if Naim developed a SNAXO to be used with Kudos, or Focal. There's that special something - speed, presense, impact, that active brings and I really value in my main system.

tonym posted:

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

I must admit I feel paying a significant amount  of money for a passive/passive crossover speaker is not a great idea... a passive speaker is flawed because of its crossover - and this is going to ultimately compromise performance, and given where the crossover will typically operate this is the area we are most sensitive to.  If I was going to really invest in larger scale audio replay I think it would need to be active speakers, or active crossover powered speakers. Can the Kudos speaker be actively crossover driven?

S

The other day, for no particular reason, I got it into my head that, were I to try the system in a passive configuration, just maybe it wouldn’t sound too bad and anyway I would quickly adapt to the new sound. It should be pretty good, using a single 500, 552 into DBLs. Yes, it’d be fine, and I could dispose of six boxes plus several layers of Fraim and miles of assorted cabling.

So I dragged the passive crossovers down from the loft, attached them to the speakers, rerouted cables, and fired her up…Well, perhaps it just needs time to warm up. After a couple of hours I settled down for a serious listen. Oh dear. I’ve put it all back to active now.

This is a bit silly really. I’d planned to give it a few days, thinking I’d get used to it and forget all about the old setup. It’s down to the time I’ve spent with the system in its present form I suppose. If i want along to someone else’s pad & listed to a 552/500/DBL system I’d be listening to its good points, but all I hear is how dull it sounds here. What's even more crazy is that I listen to various friends' passive systems and really like them. Our second system in another place is passive but sounds great. Still, life’s too short to worry. Onwards…

So it would be really wizard if Naim developed a SNAXO to be used with Kudos, or Focal. There's that special something - speed, presense, impact, that active brings and I really value in my main system.

That's the part that gets me!

Kudos, a well established Speaker manufacturer, partners up with Linn Audio, so their Speakers can be ran Actively. Meanwhile, Focal/Naim,  doesn't manufacturer an Active Speaker!

I thought the Merger was established to capture more of the market share, even those crazy Active guys!

Allante93! (Active Fan)!

Bodger posted:

sunbeamgls posted:

 

I really wanted to like the 808 and was a bit (positively) biased once I got to THAT shop. I found the 808 fast but shouty. Bass was not the real deal for me. I thought they needed a second bass driver.

Dave

 

It already has 2 bass drivers.

Err, it has one. A mid and a tweeterrr.

No bodger, it has two bass units in isobaric configuration. I.e. One bass driver you can see and another in a chamber behind that one loading it specifically for bass response. So IT HAS TWO.

Frank.

Hi Simon

Having heard Chord Dave into Linn Klimax Preamp with Linn Active 350 A speakers, and then into 552/500/Sonus Faber Stradivari I would think that a properly designed passive speaker is not at a disadvantage.

Of course the grip of the bass of the active speaker is marginally better, but I think upgrading from 500  to 500 DR would cure this and then also giving Dave a much better DIN RCA interconnect. We didn't have a DIN RCA interconnect to try.

Some of the bass grip also comes from the source, (when we tested Hugo vs Hugo TT) clearly the Hugo was letting the deepest bass notes a bit loose compared to the Hugo TT.

The nice thing about the sonus faber stradivari is that it has bass response down to 20 HZ so it tells you what how these sources perform at these low bass notes. For instance CD555 is clearly able to hold the deepest bass notes marginally better compared to Linn KDS/1 (KDS/1 seems a small bit light in this area, maybe this got resolved in latest KDS/3).

But, strangely, on my 282/250 DR, the Linn KDS/1 is not bass shy at all (compared to DAVE), and neither is it bass shy when run into Linn active speakers. 

For me, going active it not necessarily required to enjoy music and based on this limited experiment I would find it more rewarding to try different sources, and of course upgrade going from 250.2 to 250 DR (or 300/500 to 300/500 DR), so I I would't think the Kudos 707 in passive mode is a deal breaker.

Grip on speakers has nothing to do with the source, one doing bass better than another is just how well the source resolves the music. 

All else being equal active driving of speakers will be better than passive because of the direct drive and not putting the power amp's output through inductors and capacitors on the way. Of course, doing the splitting might be even better in the digital domain, except that at present that usually means inserting another set of ADC/DAC converters in the active filter, so to do digital active splitting what you need is a DSP active filter unit before the primary DAC, then 3 (or whatever) Daves direct into the three power amps (the DSP unit would have to incorporate a volume control)...

I said 'all else being equal', but of course that doesn't apply when comparing speakers that don't have active drive capability with those that do, and questions as to whether one (passive) one is better than another (active) one is down to everything in the soeakers' design, and can only be decided for the individual by listening comparison.

I'm curious, is your clear belief that the Srrad is better based on hearing it or is it based on specs and reviews, and is that also hearing some alternative speakers up to the same price bracket invluding active speakers?

Not exactly quite sure why you are curious, it is quite clear that my appreciation of the Stradivari is based on many hours of listening to it? I'm curious too why you thought otherwise  

No I am sorry to disagree again, going active doesn't always necessarily beat the passive options.

Many factors are at play, such as quality of the drivers, (which only companies (like Dynaudio ATC and B&W) which make their own drivers can guarantee and tweak to perfection).

Sonus Faber, B&W (800 series) an Dynaudio all use very benign crossovers. the 800 series B&W just has a capacitor and a resistor to the tweeter, that's it, because their drivers are extremely well made and have very good frequency behaviour in terms of the crossover.

Kudos do use the same very quality German made Mundorf capacitors as B&W, and use similar benign crossovers (to be fair to them)

In fact I would say when comparing the passive version of my Dynaudio Focus 260 driven by Naim amplifier, with the active focus XD600, there is very little in it, if anything at all. Certainly nothing to make me move away from the Naim boogie with my 282/250DR... 

The little amp packs which attach to the back of many active speakers, aren't in the same league as a NAP 250 DR. Then will all the vibration from the bass, I wonder how those amp packs actually perform at their best if they are contract subject to microphony.

analogmusic posted:

Many factors are at play [in active systems], such as quality of the drivers, (which only companies (like Dynaudio ATC and B&W) which make their own drivers can guarantee and tweak to perfection).

Not forgetting, er, Naim.

C.

Lawrence Dickie, Founder of Vivid Audio, Speaker Manufacturer of the Giya G3, 40K third tier Speaker!

Nice Speaker, heard it with the Statement!!! 

Seminar Hosted by the Esteem Manu! 

On Active Speakers

"Laurence Dickie: "I have always been a keen advocate of the active approach to loudspeaker design, believing that the direct connection between amplifier and voice coil offers the purest route and that the precision and linearity of active electronics give a clear advantage over passive alternatives. However for pragmatic reasons we felt it unwise to go to market with only active speakers. An important part of the design phase of the first Vivid Audio products was a re-evaluation of passive crossover design. It has to be said that the use of computer-aided circuit analysis has really changed the game. The accuracy possible to meet target responses while presenting a safe load is quite remarkable. This coupled with drivers which present constant impedances across a wide range of drive levels, non-polar film dielectric capacitors and air-cored inductors has permitted us to create passive designs which really challenge the active alternatives.”

Why manufacturer a product if the returns aren't there!

Kudus is working with Linn, with there Exakt Aktiv System! Preserving the Digital Source at the Beginning stage, and letting Linn's Technology work hand and hand with a line of Kudos Speakers, if one desires!

On the other hand, Focal/Naim is ???????? the QU muso active! 

Please fill me in, I'm not aware what R&D has been working on!

Allante93!

Christopher_M posted:

analogmusic posted:

Many factors are at play [in active systems], such as quality of the drivers, (which only companies (like Dynaudio ATC and B&W) which make their own drivers can guarantee and tweak to perfection).

Not forgetting, er, Naim.

C.

Trabant made their own engines.  Does that make them good engines?  No. 

Who makes stuff is not really important in getting a good result.  Its all about making sure that the product is delivered in the way intended by the designer - you don't have to do this yourself to get a good result. 

I don't think there are many architects out there who pour their own concrete. I'm certain Naim don't make all their own resistors and capacitors either, yet both are capable of good results.

analogmusic posted:

 

For me, going active it not necessarily required to enjoy music

It's not - but it does give you options later on if the speakers (like the Kudos models mentioned) are able to be operated actively by removing the crossover. 

Allante93 posted:

Lawrence Dickie, Founder of Vivid Audio, Speaker Manufacturer of the Giya G3, 40K third tier Speaker!

Nice Speaker, heard it with the Statement!!! 

Seminar Hosted by the Esteem Manu! 

On Active Speakers

"Laurence Dickie: "I have always been a keen advocate of the active approach to loudspeaker design, believing that the direct connection between amplifier and voice coil offers the purest route and that the precision and linearity of active electronics give a clear advantage over passive alternatives. However for pragmatic reasons we felt it unwise to go to market with only active speakers. An important part of the design phase of the first Vivid Audio products was a re-evaluation of passive crossover design. It has to be said that the use of computer-aided circuit analysis has really changed the game. The accuracy possible to meet target responses while presenting a safe load is quite remarkable. This coupled with drivers which present constant impedances across a wide range of drive levels, non-polar film dielectric capacitors and air-cored inductors has permitted us to create passive designs which really challenge the active alternatives.”

Why manufacturer a product if the returns aren't there!

Kudus is working with Linn, with there Exakt Aktiv System! Preserving the Digital Source at the Beginning stage, and letting Linn's Technology work hand and hand with a line of Kudos Speakers, if one desires!

On the other hand, Focal/Naim is ???????? the QU muso active! 

Please fill me in, I'm not aware what R&D has been working on!

Allante93!

The idea of making all speakers active only would be, of course, a bad marketing plan.  What is more difficult to understand is why speaker manufacturers don't make it possible to make their speakers active with a very simple conversion.  A dealer could easily install a crossover-free connector panel on the back of most speaker designs, opening up the option for active use.

Designing an active crossover could be seen as an overhead and it would be necessary to work through a business case on that kind of investment.  However, I know from information and experience that its possible to design software crossovers in Exakt in a week.  Why would a speaker manufacturer not make that option available to their customers?  Its minimal investment.  I think its because they're frightened that their customers are going to hear how much of a compromise most passive crossovers are and that they would be criticised for having such compromised passive speakers (compromise being a relative term here, I don't mean bad per se, but just relative to a good active set up).  Of course, many speaker manufacturers (or at least many distributors) have electronics partners which I'm sure influences which manufacturers they think they should be working with. There are quite a few people about now who would be happy to build their own DSP based active crossovers too, this isn't limited to Linn and Devialet.

Interesting quote from Vivid there - its great that they're getting better at frequency response in crossovers, but it doesn't tackle efficiency, the amplifier control over the driver nor phase in that quote.  Hearing a speaker with its phase and time aligment corrected is a remarkable thing - its so important to the musical experience.

james n posted:

analogmusic posted:

 

For me, going active it not necessarily required to enjoy music

It's not - but it does give you options later on if the speakers (like the Kudos models mentioned) are able to be operated actively by removing the crossover. 

Even better, Kudos give you options on the back panel connectors - there's no need to remove the crossovers.  Not that hard to implement in a design:

T-808 upper cabinet:

 Super 10: